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Patrol1985

Which DOOM monster is responsible for the biggest amount of deaths?

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I'd say it's.... the shotgun guy. He's a hitscanner so no amount of moving will save you unless you hide and each of his shots packs a punch. What's more, you often meet them really soon - when you don't have armor or HP over 100.

What do you think?

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I'd Say a Tie between Revenants and Cyberdemons,Cyberdemons rockets are so devastating while Revenat's Rocket is hard to Dodge and sometimes when you think that you've avoided it in a large area,it catches you from out of nowhere!!

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I think the answer is undecidable. It really depends on the particular maps you play and how you play. I can't decide even if speaking just for myself, really. Cyberdemons, Revenants, Mancubi, Chaingunners and Shotgunners all come to mind, but I get killed by other monsters pretty frequently too, maybe even equally frequently. My problem is that I mostly die for stupid mistakes like rushing, exposing my body to enemy fire more than needed, failing to dodge etc.

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Let's see;

Cyberdemon
Revenant
Mancubus
Arch-vile

Given the situation, these baddies will get the BFG 9000 treatment everytime.

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I agree with Piper Maru: the answer, if there is an answer, must include at least those high-tier monsters, and I'd add the Spider Mastermind and chaingunners to the list. Not simply because they're tough, but because they have the ability to kill a healthy (or almost healthy) player in one shot entirely out of the blue, or at least punish mistakes very hard.

The Cyberdemon is a no-brainer: even with 100% health and full armor, he can practically kill a player with one rocket. Even with the mega-armor, and more than 100% health, catching one rocket usually means that you will catch the other two, so again, barely surviving the first one means nothing.

The Archvile can deal enough damage to kill an almost fully healthy player, if caught in the blast. One mistake, and you're dead. Made worse because sometimes you don't see the flames, for various reasons, so you can quite literally be already dead and not realize it until you finally go boom. It's practically as if there was a random chance of the player simply exploding out of the blue.

Revenants...according to Muprhy's law, their 80% damage rocket will ALWAYS occur when you have exactly 80% health and no armor. It can be pretty distressing to simply die in one hit from a fireball with 80% health to spare.

Chaingunners and Spider Masterminds: if you are caught off-guard and without cover when they start to shoot, you're toast. If you don't die, at least you'll be damaged pretty badly. It's like suddenly being on a super-damaging floor that drains -50% health every second.

Now, dying by a Manc....only if you make the mistake of being close enough to catch all of his volleys up close. Then it's a nearly guaranteed death. At a distance however, the threat is greatly diminished.

Mithran Denizen said:

It could be cool to see statistics on this sort of thing. I find myself killed by spectre ambushes in dark rooms more often than I like to admit.


I found myself scum-saving the most when I had to face Cyberdemons in close quarters, or to negate freak deaths by Archvile or CG ambushes.

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I guess in this case the best way is to gather as much statistics as possible. For example, here are the statistics from a Nightmare Doom 2 coop session we did in ZDaemon back in 2011.

  24 Doomguys were killed by Spidermasterminds
  28 Doomguys went boom [death from barrels]
  41 Doomguys were killed by Arachnotrons
  53 Doomguys were killed by Demons
  55 Doomguys were killed by Zombiemen 
  61 Doomguys were killed by Arch-Viles
 124 Doomguys were killed by Mancubuses
 166 Doomguys were killed by Spectres
 181 Doomguys were killed by Lost Souls
 293 Doomguys were killed by Hell Knights
 354 Doomguys were killed by Cyberdemons
 430 Doomguys mutated
 444 Doomguys were killed by Revenants
 454 Doomguys were killed by Sergeants
 759 Doomguys were killed by Imps
 876 Doomguys were killed by Chaingunners
1332 Doomguys were killed by Cacodemons
GJ cacos. :)

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Memfis said:

stats


It would be interesting to see those stats normalized to the total number of monsters. It may sound impressive to see 1000+ kills for cacos and 24 for Spider Masterminds, but ofc the stats will tell a different story if there were 500 cacos and just 1 SM in total.

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Yes, shotgun guys can cause a lot of deaths too (which then are quickly negated by scum-saving) simply because then can pack a 45 HP punch of close and finish a not-so-well-off player with a lucky shot.

I think a distinction should be made between which monsters cumulatively deal the most damage, and which are "credited" with most finishing blows.

These two are not necessarily the same: e.g. a player running around a map might get a lot of damage from mundane monsters like imps, random zombie shots, etc. which however don't kill him right away, and he has all the time to run away and heal it. Actual deaths occur when faced to relatively powerful and hard-to-dodge attacks, like a surprise shotgun blast or revenant missile.

Basically, anything that can kill a player in one hit in a given situation will get credited with many actual kills.

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Maes said:

It would be interesting to see those stats normalized to the total number of monsters. It may sound impressive to see 1000+ kills for cacos and 24 for Spider Masterminds, but ofc the stats will tell a different story if there were 500 cacos and just 1 SM in total.


Well, monster frequency is a relevant variable. It's not really interesting to theorise the most dangerous monster but putting that factor up against other factors like scarcity throw up interesting results such as former humans being responsible for more than twice the deaths of Spiderdemons. I'd like to see these categorised into map sets played and a grand total table. Even accross the IWADs alone it would make interesting reading.

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Most of you haven't mentioned the Chaingunner, weird.

Relative to its "level"/health, he is the most dangerous by far imo. He is a hitscanner, he can snipe from afar, he can obliterate you from up close, he NEVER stops firing unless you hide or hit him, he sometimes fires again before the SSG has reloaded, holy shiiiiittttt.

I mean, the Cyberdemon does epic (splash) damage, but he's a boss, that's to be expected.

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Oddly enough hitscanners are not a problem for me, when I die, it's often at the hand of a high tier monster.

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I wonder how many of those cacodemon deaths were to the final room in the factory.

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chaingunners, cyberdemons, and any monster who snipes at me when I don't pay attention.

Memfis said:

statistics from a Nightmare Doom 2 coop session we did in ZDaemon back in 2011.


I love how spectres have more than triple the amount of kills than demons. also imps are #3.

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Getsu Fune said:

chaingunners, cyberdemons, and any monster who snipes at me when I don't pay attention.



I love how spectres have more than triple the amount of kills than demons. also imps are #3.


Imps are deceptively strong. 15-20 points of damage per fireball can stack up real quickly, if you're slow and unlucky with the RNG.

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NuclearPotato said:

Imps are deceptively strong. 15-20 points of damage per fireball can stack up real quickly, if you're slow and unlucky with the RNG.


Up to 24, actually. Most players don't realize how frail Doomguy really is, until they are placed in a situation where health is scarce, armor is nonexistent, and where avoiding taking a hit means being able to react in a split second...at the last possible second.

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Dime said:

I wonder how many of those cacodemon deaths were to the final room in the factory.


Or in map29 :D 1001 tries of that map... I would have guessed chaingunner #1 killer.

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I think the most deaths would actually go to basic enemies like the Imps or Cacodemons purely due to the incredibly large amount of them used in most wads.

You would think Cyberdemon would take the title but he is rarely used outside of most "hard" map sets.

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Maes said:

It would be interesting to see those stats normalized to the total number of monsters. It may sound impressive to see 1000+ kills for cacos and 24 for Spider Masterminds, but ofc the stats will tell a different story if there were 500 cacos and just 1 SM in total.


Having nothing to do right now, I decided to calculate it just for fun. So, I divided total number of deaths/number of monsters (for example, 1332/188 for Cacodemons). Of course, I don't know a lot about statistics, so this may be complete nonsense:

Cyberdemon ---- 70.8
Cacodemon ----- 7.08
Revenant ------ 4.93
Spiderdemon---- 4.8
Hell Knight --- 3.90
Arch-Vile ----- 3.58
Chaingunner --- 3.20
Mancubus ------ 1.87
Spectre ------- 0.94
Sergeant ------ 0.93
Lost Soul ----- 0.91*
Arachnotron --- 0.64
Imp ----------- 0.62
Zombieman ----- 0.18
Demon --------- 0.16

*I think that Pain Elementals can affect this number significantly

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Maes said:

Basically, anything that can kill a player in one hit in a given situation will get credited with many actual kills.


I think Maes is right, and therefore it would be pretty hard to track down the 'number one killer'. It would also depend heavily on the mapset and its placement of monsters.
For instance, if chaingunners are abundant and constantly placed in flank / rear closet ambushes...

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Zed said:

normalized stats


QED, those stats tell a different story, and support my theory that monsters that can punish mistakes the harsher will get the most kills. Cyberdemon is obvious: all it takes is one mistake to die at its hands.

Notice how all mid-tier monsters, including the Chaingunner, are in the same ballpark of 3-7 kills per monsters. Now, to be fair, there must be something wrong with the mapset itself if each Cacodemon can rack up 7 kills vs players (were the stats from a single game or from several games? Were there really 1000+ player deaths in one session? Geez...). Did the players spawn in a room surrounded by cacos?!

Smaller monsters however, at most manage to inflict circumstancial damage ("a thousand papercuts") but rarely do they manage to actually kill a player.

Some interesting outliers: the Manc and Arachnotrons are pretty low for middle/high-tier monsters. They may have high volume of fire, but they lack a melee attack, and their attacks are "highly telegraphed". I suspect most of them end up dying in infighting anyway.

Spectres and Sergeants are pretty much at the same level, but for different reasons. A sergeant has a chance of offing an ambushed player, if his health is below 50%, and a bite from a Spectre you didn't see can cost you 40 HP. It's easy to evade the bites, yeah, but if one lands then another one much easier to follow.

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I was thinking about a couple of things, besides that:

1)The session was on NM, which I think is right because we are testing (I think) the absolute strength of each type of monster, so it's reasonable to "test" them in the highest difficulty. But there's also the fact that almost nobody plays on NM on a regular basis, so it would be cool to have stats from sessions played on UV.
2)As I can understand from the post linked by Memfis, it seems that MAP29 took 4 hours!? That may be a typo, it just doesn't seem right. If it's correct, well, I don't know.
3)Maybe the Demon Spawner on MAP30 has some role here? And related to this, as I mentioned in the last post, Pain Elementals (as well as Arch-Viles) can have quite an impact on those numbers.
4)Also, we can conclude that a)Cyberdemons are total badasses, and b)Zombiemen are more dangerous than Demons.

EDIT: Also, nobody died by Barons?

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I'd give chaingunner and shotgun guy credit for most damage dealt, not necessarily kills. Mancubi and cyberdemons probably do it for me. If I get hit by one manc fireball, I usually get hit by two or three.

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I'm not surprised that cacodemons are near the top. You might think of them as docile - the cows of Doom - but they're easy to underestimate.

In a typical scenario where you're fighting a fruit salad of monsters and you have to prioritize, you'll always dodge the revenant missile and tank the cacodemon fireball, right? Easy for cacos to inflict lots of damage.

They can just float across map geometry that you would use to your advantage against ground-dwelling monsters. Fat and slow-moving as cacos are, they just love to block your own movement. And yet, they can be quite stealthy and sometimes sneak up on you unawares.

Good map designers know how to use them effectively. You don't make the player fight cacos one on one on open ground. You release them from multiple directions when the player is stuck on a catwalk over a slime pit, preferably with cyberdemons on opposite ends...

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Zed said:

As I can understand from the post linked by Memfis, it seems that MAP29 took 4 hours!?

40 hours. :) MAP29 is extremely difficult on NM, try it! And perhaps in some way multiplayer made it even worse because it's very hard to cooperate well in such chaos. As dew said, "other people are often worse than monsters, heh".

I don't know why there are no stats for barons, maybe termrork just forgot to include them.

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Memfis said:

I guess in this case the best way is to gather as much statistics as possible. For example, here are the statistics from a Nightmare Doom 2 coop session we did in ZDaemon back in 2011.
[...]
GJ cacos. :)


"Doomguys went boom" made me laugh pretty hard.

Maes said:

I think a distinction should be made between which monsters cumulatively deal the most damage, and which are "credited" with most finishing blows.


I'd be shocked if chaingunners don't rate in the top three in the former (normalized); their effect on HP is like tax.

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