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JCB

E1M1 Depths

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Depths of LAB

Well I took some advice from my first map thread and created something new, now im hoping I can do the same here.

Tell me why and how you think it's bad/good, I need gameplay and pacing advice from veteran designers/players, not only aesthetic.



GzDoom - Jumping: Yes

http://www.mediafire.com/download/17nt3qrp3774zf3/jcb_depths.wad

















Appreciate any and all feedback!

The end area is weak, it will be fixed.

Also, please help me with my Carry East Fast texture, sometimes it scrolls right and sometimes it's 90 degrees off.. Anyone know why?

Some Fixes Added - thanks to Salt_Man_Z's feedback.

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Screens look pretty okay, if a bit too symmetrical, and I'm not sure how I feel about SFALL1 being used on a floor :P

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What annoys me the most about new mappers is that they always use GZDoom map formats to make their first maps. (I myself made a map in GZDoom format as my first, but I've grown out of that.)

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Thanks AD, I've enjoyed several of your maps on here. I would wager that you have a better grasp of designing DooM gameplay then just about anyone of these vets. I've played a couple of your levels recently and they inspire me to focus more on gameplay then pretty attempts at environment I can get stuck doing. WaterMaim's ending surprise Archvile probably inspired my little gimmicky placeholder at the end of this map, lol.

I do seem to of took the most symmetrical parts of the map to SS, may have to change that. TBH Most of this map is just basic Ultimate DooM inspired closets and platforms though. I was trying to add a slight adventure element with the nukage pipe ride to a different section.

I can't get my nfall to align properly consistently on Carry East Fast sectors, even with 90d changes.

Breezeep, You know what annoys me about this forum? It seems like a large percentage of the users act like they're miserable pricks, LOL JK brochacho

My maps tend to be rather flat though, i'm trying to work it out in my limited doom editor time. I've been playing this for almost 20 years, so I think I might as well use my favorite port lol.

I need gameplay and pacing advice!

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Well, this needs a lot of work. Here's a demo* that I recorded (GZDoom 1.8.6; not a true FDA, as I initially attempted to Tyson it with the berzerk pack, but quickly got myself killed. So I restarted and just went for the shotgun instead.) You'll see I eventually gave up trying to figure out how to get the blue key, and just committed suicide-by-rocket.

The general architecture itself isn't bad at all, but...where to start? Annoying doors that open and then immediately close on you, switches that don't animate (or seem to do anything, for that matter), all of those little secret "cubby" areas where the walls just open up (some with monsters in them, some inexplicably empty.) Plenty of misaligned textures, a handful of HOMs; the first door marked as needing the blue key doesn't actually require a key. A number of the secret areas weren't signposted: I only found them by seeing them on the automap.

I will say that I liked the combat in the opening room. (Though I feel the player start should be farther back near the "entrance" door.) The area in your third screenshot (with the spiders) I found enjoyable too, but it wasn't particularly engaging. I also didn't mind the nukefall texture usage: it made sense to me given the context.

*edit - Just tried watching my own demo; it desyncs shortly after I give up and just start hunting the automap for secret areas. Weird.

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Awesome, some real feedback. Thanks for the demo, exactly what I need. I figured the Red Key was going to be the hard one for people. After you go into the room with the falling wall plats and engage the switch the door next to the entrance on the right opens to reveal the switch to lower the blue key, surprised you had problems with that... Darkness probably? Room needs work, along with the blue key room and exit.

I saw the berserk pack start in another map and figured i'd give the player the option to fight. I have so many secrets in this map i'm trying to see which ones to leave lol. I literally just threw this together, there's alot of brainstorming stuff still there... probably ruins it for a player using automap. (seeing closets I haven't finished or triggered etc.)

*Wow I did not think about a player immediately secret hunting instead of following my planned progression... damn thanks man that info's invaluable and exactly why i'm posting here.

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JCB said:

After you go into the room with the falling wall plats and engage the switch the door next to the entrance on the right opens to reveal the switch to lower the blue key, surprised you had problems with that...

If that's the room I'm thinking of (switch in the middle, chainsaw in the hallway beyond*) that switch didn't seem to do anything...?

*I already had a chainsaw by that point, making that one superfluous.

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Yeah that switch exactly, when you exit that room, the same way you came in, a door opens to allow you up to the blue key switch. I edited it thanks to your advice and now the switch is visible now, got rid of the first blue border, aligned some textures, removed the automap from there.

My best secret is right behind that first chainsaw, that's why that horrible texture is there Lol. I'm making the door to the blue switch more obvious now..

Thanks bro, how did you have the rocket launcher by that point?

*edit* Apparently I broke that switch when quickly aligning textures to upload this, just fixed it.

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JCB said:

Thanks bro, how did you have the rocket launcher by that point?

It was after my demo desynced, so I'm not sure my memory's at 100%, but I feel like there was a long L-shaped secret area that had rockets and the launcher in it. It was in a secret area that I found via the automap, anyway.

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Oh in the bowels of the computer... Cool man that makes me want to leave that automap and just fix the secret signage. I made this so fast there's so much stuff i've forgot to do or hidden. Your post alone made this map 60% more presentable.

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It looks really flat. We're going to need some platforms, interactive donuts, perhaps some bridges over troubled waters.

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TheCupboard said:

It looks really flat. We're going to need some platforms, interactive donuts, perhaps some bridges over troubled waters.


True. I have platforms and two donuts but they're not in top quality. I think you're right about the flatness, that's my biggest flaw.... and alignment... it's so boring :p

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Shit! That's a left over monster closet, taken care of in the current download... Thanks man those little things are the worst to deal with.

I'm wondering where Scifista's brutal review is?! Wake up Sci ;P

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scifista42 said:

Don't do this.


LMAO... I'm here for constructive criticism, as i'm not interested in making maps for myself. I can handle the worst you got, but I (for some reason) value your opinion pretty highly.

I've played some pretty shit wads from this forum, the kind that you die in and immediately type exit... I'm trying to go in the exact opposite direction.

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JCB said:

LMAO... I'm here for constructive criticism, as i'm not interested in making maps for myself. I can handle the worst you got, but I (for some reason) value your opinion pretty highly.

Thanks. But consider this: What if I didn't have anything to say; or what if I didn't want to say anything; or what if I didn't feel like caring at all? I prefer forum communication for the reason that - contrarily to direct dialogues, like casual or online chat - a few things apply: 1. Time doesn't matter. 2. All activity is voluntary. 3. All activity comes from me. Dialogues usually go out of my control very soon, and I specially dislike to be pulled into a dialogue I didn't want to get to. Similarly with expectations. Free, voluntary and time-relaxed sharing ideas on the internet is my thing.

Also, I've played the map. You seriously need to put work to texturing and specially alignment. As I've told you last time, better do all this work before you release the map, because the main consequence of releasing a distinctly incomplete map is that you discourage people from your work. At least make the map functional and looking okay before releasing it, improvements are always possible. Most people, myself included, feel terrible when "testing" a garbage map.

I've found a lot of imperfections, let me name just a few of the worst ones: Bad midtextures inside doors around the rocket launcher secret. Inescapable nukage pit in the middle of a room. SFALL1 on the floor sucks, use NUKAGE1. In the plasmagun secret behind the start, player can jump and see that there's no NUKAGE1 floor behind the SFALLs. Many unmarked closets. Map ends after getting the yellow key without a possibility to return and use the key. Alignment sucks everywhere. Gameplay was rather easy, not much challenging at all - but not that bad.

That's it. Good luck making improvements, and once again, please don't intentionally release maps as incomplete as this one "for getting feedback".

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scifista42 said:

Thanks. But consider this: What if I didn't have anything to say; or what if I didn't want to say anything; or what if I didn't feel like caring at all? I prefer forum communication for the reason that - contrarily to direct dialogues, like casual or online chat - a few things apply: 1. Time doesn't matter. 2. All activity is voluntary. 3. All activity comes from me. Dialogues usually go out of my control very soon, and I specially dislike to be pulled into a dialogue I didn't want to get to. Similarly with expectations. Free, voluntary and time-relaxed sharing ideas on the internet is my thing.

Also, I've played the map. You seriously need to put work to texturing and specially alignment. As I've told you last time, better do all this work before you release the map, because the main consequence of releasing a distinctly incomplete map is that you discourage people from your work. At least make the map functional and looking okay before releasing it, improvements are always possible. Most people, myself included, feel terrible when "testing" a garbage map.

I've found a lot of imperfections, let me name just a few of the worst ones: Bad midtextures inside doors around the rocket launcher secret. Inescapable nukage pit in the middle of a room. SFALL1 on the floor sucks, use NUKAGE1. In the plasmagun secret behind the start, player can jump and see that there's no NUKAGE1 floor behind the SFALLs. Many unmarked closets. Map ends after getting the yellow key without a possibility to return and use the key. Alignment sucks everywhere. Gameplay was rather easy, not much challenging at all - but not that bad.

That's it. Good luck making improvements, and once again, please don't intentionally release maps as incomplete as this one "for getting feedback".


Scifista, my first Doomworld forum friend! Thanks for the advice as always, I didn't realize mentioning your name was going to be so traumatic for you, and I apologize for it. but...

Don't take this the wrong way (although you never seem to be worried about it), but your posts are inundated with this strange attempt at quasi-professionalism and a terribly, socially inept attitude.

Why is this? It's hard to tell how many mappers you've discouraged that would've eventually created whatever type of levels you enjoy (if you even enjoy this game, I honestly can't tell)

I'm just not sure how to take you. You seem like a smart guy, but your words just reek with overt tones of sadism, while sounding almost robotic.

Salt_Man_Z pointed out all of the shit just as brutally truthful as you, however he gave me invaluable information on how other DooM players may play a particular map. This is the information I value, not texture alignments. (I have learned from this thread that they are extremely important for signing secrets even in alphas)

Some of these replies have truly changed my DooM design philosophy. How else would you propose for me to receive such insight? Why do you expect this forum to be completely different than UDK, Source, Unity, CryEngine, Maya, or 3ds max forums? Why can no one ask for help, why must you demand 100% "completed" maps only? That's probably why there are so many shitty ones, no one ever has any valuable 'feedback'.

What I could see of Salt's demo made me realize that some players may deal with a starting room completely differently than myself... and his info unveiled how convoluted my initial blue key puzzle was.

See, he didn't know that he was doing this, he was just helping a fellow member out when asked for help, in a positive way.

I thought you were a level-designer based on the unnecessarily brutal reviews / borderline hate filled reviews of yours I've read on /newstuff and the forum) - until I searched you in the archives...

..no offense but I could make your crossing pipes map in about 30 seconds... LoL

If you don't mean to come off so condescending and actually struggle with social interaction, then I truly apologize!

Btw, If "garbage" maps make you feel terrible, then you have some type of physiological disorder ;P

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So you call out a scifista by name for feedback, persist when he declines, then get pissy when he obliges you. Charming.

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a) I wouldn't use lights on huge chunks of the ceiling. Put a few lights here and there but don't overdo it. But for every sector light you add, make sure there is a gradual transition from brightness to darkness. It makes an area look more complex than it really is.
b) I would use umbra and penumbra effects when doing your lighting. So when your lights cast a shadow on a support beam/column, you get a gradual fade to darkness instead of well-lit sector = 192 brightness and shadow sector = 96 brightness. With a gradual shadow effect, it allows contrast to gently accent an area of the map instead of appearing to be a crude attempt at sector-based lighting.
c) A lot of pegging issues. Not every door track/elevator track should move when an activated sector moves.
d) You're using the SUPPORT3 texture a lot on the floor. I recommend using something like CEIL5_2 or FLOOR7_1.
e) Basically come up with crafty ways to transition from one area to the next without involving jarring color transformations.
f) There needs to be more use of lower/upper pegging on walls so that there is decent texture alignment in terms of the surrounding (x,y) values. This is relatively easy if you use 3D mode and practice. Different textures may be easier than others to align perfectly. Just pressing the autoalign button is rarely the end of the story to get a group of sectors with different ceiling/floor heights looking like they make sense. The walls shouldn't appear to have wallpaper. They should look and blend together like they are made out of bricks, or panels, rocks, or whatever.

a few good things
f) you know how to use monster closets
g) the map does feel like it has an element of progression, it's not just the same room over and over again.
h) you are playing with light and dark effects with some attempt made at creating realistic shadow sectors.


Also you should consider the fact that other members did not learn english as a first language and do not use it on an everyday basis. So when someone says something is "bad", it does not mean that you are bad at Doom or making maps, it means that something is probably worth improving if you want more people to decide to download it and give you different kinds of feedback. There are all kinds of resources out there to help mappers improve, consider watching some Doom Builder videos on youtube that teach certain design tricks, for example. Or consider opening up some of your favorite maps, fly around in 3D mode and observe how they handle texture alignment, theme transitioning, and how to make beautiful monster closets without misalignments.

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JCB said:

the unnecessarily brutal reviews / borderline hate filled reviews


I see that you are unable to cope with honest, constructive critisism. Because that is what Scifista provides.

Perhaps you are too young to get it. If you aren't, you are an idiot, JCB. My wager is on a combination of both.

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Oh, sure, let's have a random person come in and escalate a little argument with no reason... oh the drama!

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Feels like a good 1994 map, but in GZDoom form.

I had fun with this, it honestly just seems like a matter of time and mapping, you will naturally get better and realize what you personally enjoy making/playing. A big thing for me personally is to not just map for others, but yourself too, if that makes sense.

A small tip, using the lower/upper unpegged flag on walls is great, it's basically like the Y axis version of auto aligning. It took me years to figure that out but it's improved the visual quality of my maps tenfold.

Hope to see more in the future.

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VGA said:

Oh, sure, let's have a random person come in and escalate a little argument with no reason... oh the drama!


I frequent this forum quite often, and I'll comment whenever it pleases me. Just like yourself, I suspect.

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