License to Ilya (On IDgames)

[dobu gabu maru]

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

Would anyone be interested in doing a bit of a tune up for a joe ilya map that was submitted for the Revilution project.

I obviously don't speak for everyone here, but I think most of us would prefer to work on a map of our own creation for other projects.

Played Surreily's map. While the outside of the map is a little bright, the rest of the visuals are spot-on and gorgeous. There's a lot of good detail everywhere and some places, like the library, feel both eerie and alluring. Gameplay on the other hand is certainly all over the place. There's a couple instances where you have a chance to make the encounters interesting but don't really do anything with it, like the initial bridge trap, the climax to the library, and the final battle (Pinkies? Really?). I'll guess I'll walk through it piece by piece...

So the start is alright, but the bridge trap is really ineffective—the Rocket Launcher is an amazing suppression tool so all you have to do is plant yourself between the two barriers and fire away, as most of the low level enemies can't do anything other than get blown to bits. Removing the barrier altogether should spice up the encounter with the mancs on either side (maybe you could delay the warp of one of them).

The square arena is the most balanced out of all the encounters, since (when you get out of the central box) it allows enemies to come at you from all angles. The player is encouraged to use the RL on the revs but at the same time they have to be cautious of cacos, demons, or other various hitscanners sneaking up behind them—it's a really solid encounter. Only thing wrong here is that you give a bazillion shotgun shells inside of the central box, where 3-4 in each corner would do.

The library has both good and bad in it. Some encounters can be really tense, like the revs on one side and demons behind you, while others (a single specter) don't do much to threaten the player. I think it's good to have a mix in order to keep the player on their feet, but I agree with joe that after they grab the red key and open up the path out of there, two more AVs should pop up somewhere (in different places) to wreak some havoc. Ammo-wise, this is the only part of the map where I ran out of munitions (it was after jumping through the warp past the 2 AVs; I forgot to grab the rocket and clips in the corner since it's kinda hard to see them). It was especially aggravating because I was able to slip by the last AV but having no ammo meant that I had no way to deal with the chaingunners perched in the corners of the main room. An extremely good rule of thumb to keep is that if you're going to include something notably cheap like that, at least give the player a way to deal with it, like two rockets on the ground somewhere. IMO, giving the player a couple more rockets near the red key would help too if you're going to include the post-RK dual AV warp-in.

Mountain ascent kinda feels like it is what it is—as long as you have the BFG primed, nothing can stand in your way. The AV trio was the only one that felt threatening since there's no immediate cover when they pop up, but all the others can't really do much against you. I'd switch the great pinkie mass at the end out with a cyber, as at least he has a chance to kill you. Also, sprinkle in some stimpacks as you journey up the mountain, as I think there's nothing until you get to the top (and I was running around at like 40%/no armor the whole time). And again, include a box of rockets to deal with the revs perched from afar later up the mountain, as there was no way for me to hit them other than with the SG (or wasting cell against the wall)

[Surreily]

@dobu: Really huge thanks for your feedback on my map! I'll need some time to experiment with different gameplay ideas for those problematic areas that you highlighted, but I already have some ideas I'd love to try out in those areas. I've not got enough time to work on it tonight, so I'll begin playing around with it tomorrow. Thanks again!

[Guest]

dobu gabu maru said:

I obviously don't speak for everyone here, but I think most of us would prefer to work on a map of our own creation for other projects.

Hmmm.

I had assumed this was a tune up of Joe Ilya's maps, so it seemed like a good idea to me. :)

[dobu gabu maru]

KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

I had assumed this was a tune up of Joe Ilya's maps, so it seemed like a good idea to me. :)

Oh my apologies, I thought you came in here asking for a fix to one of his maps for Revilution. I believe the project is open to joe-ilya maps of all types, though it's also running out of steam by this point so chances may be slim.

[cannonball]

2nd and hopefully final version of my remake of Map21 of Nova
http://www.mediafire.com/download/6jjl9c7m22effud/Finalbas2.wad

It should be less difficult in parts now, though the crate area might not be due to a few changes in that section. Also in the final ambush the metal windows also lower now giving more space, I also changed the monster composition of this ambush.

If Joe still feels this is too hard to be accepted then no worries, I'm sure it can be put to use elsewhere.

[Surreily]

Yep, it is definitely a fair bit easier than before, but still challenging. I was going to complain about the ammo again, but I then realized I was a nub and had somehow missed the rocket launcher. It feels a little more refined and I would be surprised if Joe isn't happy with it now. TNT is probably my favorite IWAD, and this map captures that good old TNT feeling very well - good stuff cannonball!

[joe-ilya]

I like this better, although I encountered a bug at the start, you can just go through the window on the right via stairs/AV jump and skip the whole map.

[Guest]

dobu gabu maru said:

Oh my apologies, I thought you came in here asking for a fix to one of his maps for Revilution. I believe the project is open to joe-ilya maps of all types, though it's also running out of steam by this point so chances may be slim.

nah all good. :) I would happily submit the map to this project if anyone wants to fix it. Otherwise I will work on it for Revilution. Cheers :)

[Dylan Jarvis]

I'd like to participate in this. How about map 09 from the lost maps 1?

[Linguica]

/skeptical look

[SavageCorona]

Agreed ^

[joe-ilya]

Tactical Stiffy said:

I'd like to participate in this. How about map 09 from the lost maps 1?

Go ahead.

[Dylan Jarvis]

Here's what I got so far!

http://www.mediafire.com/download/4wcg6mfyo5346ss/MAP09.zip

The Ending area isn't finished yet but it will eventually.

[joe-ilya]

Doesn't work in prboom, but the map was cool.

Too much health, and some of the single monster encounters should be made into double monster encounters, because fighting 2 hell knights is more exciting than killing a single baron of hell, killing 2 revenants instead of a single mancubus is more exciting, etc.
Also, these yellow lights that you can step onto are damaging, that's stupid, you could replace it with nukage, or just get rid of it.

[Dylan Jarvis]

alright cool I'll fix some of it. Plus the yellow lights were supposed to imitate like a shock effect like some kind of electrical room but I could change it into a slime room instead. Or just get rid of the damaging floor altogether.

[Dylan Jarvis]

Alright. Here's an updated version that's beatable. I added three imps to compliment the Baron on the elevator and made some of the medkits easy only. I also added a couple more spectres to the mix to compliment that last mancubus.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/mjxw4bzwh6ad336/MAP09.zip

It also worked with PRBoom, however the ending area looks messed up for some reason and I don't understand why.

[EffinghamHuffnagel]

Tactical Stiffy said:

Alright. Here's an updated version that's beatable.

I didn't have much problem beating the first version. Using ZDoom.

MAP09
--------
Things I liked:

* You kept the starting area from joe's map and you let the player see it from the new start area. Nice touch.

* You re-textured the map. I think it looks better. Really like the Red Key Door texture you put together.

* The Red Key fight. I think. More on this later.

* The AV surprised me. I like it.

* The new Spectre closet surprised me. I used up most of my remaining bullets on them. Nice. Maybe add a few Potions in the closet. Feels like there should be something there after the fight.

Things I didn't like:

- The entire waterfall is tagged as switches which lower joe's original starting spot/platform, but there's nothing on it and no way to get there. It looks like you were in the process of making that a secret but hadn't finished. A Berserk would be handy for the Red Key room. You'd still need to remove the Impassable tags from the window, give the window sector tag 1 so it lowers with the platform, flip the linedef on the other side of the window and give it type 62 so you can't get stuck in that area, and add LITE5 as lower textures on the window side walls to prevent HOMs when it lowers. It would certainly be a valid secret.

- The elevator. You can grab the dropped Shotgun and get off it before it starts to lower. That means you can snipe or just activate the Spectres from the top. If they get on the elevator and ride it up, easy kills. The other three paths off the elevator are all tagged Monster Block. This also affects the Red Key fight. The Chaingun alcove should be lower or longer with the Spectres moved back so you can't see them from the top of the elevator.

- Once you snipe the Arachno (it's too big to exit the room and come to the top of the stairs), you can grab the Red Key and fight in a blinking room or grab the key and back out fast down the stairs to land, technically, between three encounters. I say technically, because of the Monster-Blocked elevator. The Baron and Imps can't reach you. So you just need to kill the closet Demon and use the closet as cover to kill anything coming out of the Red Key room. Which they will. In single file. Then pick off the Baron with the Shotgun as he keeps going up and down in the elevator.

- The secret Chainsaw. It's not much of a secret because you'll always run unto the closet to grab the RL and always go through the illusionary wall before you can stop yourself and land right on top of the Chainsaw. Maybe make it a door instead. Or move the illusionary wall and rest of the closet further back from the RL.

- The Hell Knight at the bottom of the stairs past the Red Key Door. He's so far away, he's no threat and an easy kill. Maybe make that door an S1 Red Fast Open and put the HK right behind it.

- The first Manc is no threat. Monsters are square. They may move at an angle, but their orientation is still a North-South, East-West 90-degree-angled square. That means any angled hallway has to be wide enough for a monster's diagonal length, or they can't walk down it. The Manc here can't make the turn and can be sniped.

- The Revanant can be sniped from the same hall as can the alcove Chaingunners.

- The second Manc is no threat. Because the pit is not instant-up, you can run into the room and across the top of the Manc (at least in ZDoom) and into the exit before you even know he's there. If you don't run and he pops up, he's still not much of a threat. You can back down that same angled hall again. He can't make it down the hall from this side either and can be sniped. Or just wait until he walks past the hall to the stairs and run to the exit.

- The Spectres behind the gate. If you run right at the middle of the gate, they don't see you and you exit safely. Maybe add some bars that pop up to block the gate when the Manc pops up and put the lowering switch behind the gate.

Your wad is a mess. It still has all of joe's lost maps with their headers stripped plus all his music and graphics. I cleaned it. I left all of joe's textures even though I don't believe you used them all. The map went from 2.8Mb to 388k. The zip is about 90% smaller.

http://www.mediafire.com/?w3nzqhnazlwu79d

So the map is okay. Certainly better than the original. Right now, the only fights that are a concern at all are the Red Key Room area and the AV. You can snipe too many monsters without much threat to yourself. Even the AV if you stay on the platform and have freelook enabled.

The western room with the Green Armor feels proportionally small compared to the rest of the map. A lot of monsters in a cramped space that doesn't seem to have a purpose except to hold the Green Armor (one little pump for the whole plant?). If you were to expand the map, that would be place to do it.

Nice work. I had some fun.

[joe-ilya]

EffinghamHuffnagel basically covered everything I wanted to say, except for one thing.

This door can't be opened from this side, the other one can be opened from both but this one doesn't.

[EffinghamHuffnagel]

joe-ilya said:

EffinghamHuffnagel basically covered everything I wanted to say, except for one thing.

This door can't be opened from this side, the other one can be opened from both but this one doesn't.

I just checked those doors. They're both tagged DR Open/Close and work correctly in ZDoom. There's a W1 linedef 16 units inside each door which starts the crusher in the room. I'll bet you came in the other door to start the crusher and haven't triggered this W1, so it's "eating" your attempts to open the door. Both these W1s should be deleted from here and one should be added at the exit of the starting room.

[The_MártonJános]

My contribution alas LM MAP02's renovated version. Better late than never.



Note that STONE5 in the very back is just a placeholder.

[dobu gabu maru]

^ Cool, glad you're joining.

Here's an update to Cyberdemon's Playground. Includes difficulties this time, and I tweaked some stuff after the YK door. Should be the final version unless some bugs are found or somethin'

[Dylan Jarvis]

Thanks for the feedback I totally get what you were saying it was way too easy to kill most of the enemies, especially the mancubi lol.

I did away with both mancubi this time.

I Removed the block monster tags on the elevator.

I also made the red key room close on you so you can't escape without hitting a switch to get out.

I had to block the baron teleport with a door because he almost managed to sneak in the room before I grabbed the red key.

I added a secret to Joe Ilya's tree that contains a berserk like you suggested.

I extended the Revenant's barricade so you can't just stand there and snipe him without him having a chance to fight back. (As with the chaingunners which I might just scrap)

I also added a new closet that opens up in the sewer portion.

The Exit get's closed up when you get to close to it, so you can't just ignore everything around it.

I will also expand on that side room a bit maybe add another weapon and some more monsters to deal with as well.

Overall I appreciate the fair criticism. I can only move forward and expand on my creativity more with it. thanks

[Dylan Jarvis]

Alright New and Improved Water Treatment Plant map enjoy!

I Added some more monsters, Another Room, Super Shotgun, Extra Secrets and lifted all the block monster restrictions and much more.

The Arachnotron is still a push over because he can't leave the red key room but you can use the technopillars to snipe him through anyways so he will just remain fodder.

I also changed the music track because my friend thought it was boring.

I'm also including the music file for whenever this project get's released, whoever compiles everything can have the midi as well.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/0l58fqf3s05bblf/MAP09.zip

[The_MártonJános]

dobu gabu maru said:

^ Cool, glad you're joining.

I actually did about a month ago, only this was the time I could actually do anything remarkable by then. Expect this answer to be edited and added some more eye candy somewhen.

[Dylan Jarvis]

Is there a limit to how many maps each mapper can tune-up? I might do another or 2 to try to get the ball rolling.

[AD_79]

Seeing how Joe-Ilya has (apparently) been losered, I'm considering compiling what is currently there. Make another map if you want and I'll include it, just don't take too long.

[Dylan Jarvis]

Losered huh? I'm just going to guess that it means he's banned, lol, ok yeah I'm pretty quick so I'll remake another map to add some meat to this.

[Guest Unregistered account]

Tactical Stiffy said:

Losered huh? I'm just going to guess that it means he's banned, lol, ok yeah I'm pretty quick so I'll remake another map to add some meat to this.

Getting loser's is like getting a temporary ban. You can only access Post Hell and a "special" Losers subforum.

It has a thread titled "heh" where all posts there get edited to say... heh.

Etc.

[Dylan Jarvis]

Funny, He must of really pissed someone off lol.

[Jaxxoon R]

If I remember correctly he told some guy that his teeth were sometimes retarded.