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pablogener

How's 'Hatred' any worse than the 'Carmageddon remake'

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fraggle said:

Be open-minded, sure - just don't be so "open-minded" that your brain falls out.





(Don't take this post too seriously, you known I fkn love you Soda)

Cyanosis said:

[...] if they are, the game has shown zero racist messages. You literally kill everyone. If they are Neo-Nazis they've made a very fair and equal game!

This is actually a pretty good point. It's possible for total douchebags to make excellent games.. Though I don't think Hatred looks excellent by any means, the point is the same. Truth be told, I'm not surprised to hear they're probably neo-nazis, but I do have a modicum of respect for them for keeping it out of their game/publicity.

Still, fuck 'em. Nazis are fucking scum.

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*four* of the team members are all associated with right wing groups.


And there's worse! Right-wing parties get about ~50% of the votes in many Western countries. That means there's dozens of millions of Neo-Nazis walking our streets, defiling the world with their heinous act of Not Voting Left and Having Different Opinions! Literally Hitler. Statistically speaking, you might even be talking to one RIGHT NOW! The horror...

Doomworld should immediately enact a series of mandatory opinion polls and ban any account who falls outside of the correct political spectrum. We can't tolerate intolerance. The idea of free speech ought to be handled responsibly, for starters by limiting speech coming from the wrong people. To avoid going back to the darkest hours of our history where authoritarians almost ruled the world, we must strongly push people to think the right way, using all tools available to us. There's no wrong methods, only wrong ideas.

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Pointing out the developers are associated with shitty political groups isn't suppressing anyone 'free speech'. That said they sound more like the garden variety "We should send 'em all back/I'm not raciest but" troglodytes more then the more universally hated "We need Race War!" scumbags. So maybe your mileage varies on 'shitty political group'?

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There's Left Wing groups that are equally shitty. You just don't want people from any kind of shitty group.




Like most school clubs.

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Clonehunter said:

Like most of academia.

Fixed.

Phml said:

Doomworld should immediately enact a series of mandatory opinion polls and ban any account who falls outside of the correct political spectrum. We can't tolerate intolerance. The idea of free speech ought to be handled responsibly, for starters by limiting speech coming from the wrong people. To avoid going back to the darkest hours of our history where authoritarians almost ruled the world, we must strongly push people to think the right way, using all tools available to us. There's no wrong methods, only wrong ideas.

You just described the Something Awful forums without irony.

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Technician said:

Fixed.
You just described the Something Awful forums without irony.

I dunno about the rest of the sub-forums, but D&D is just that to a fucking T.

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Clonehunter said:

There's Left Wing groups that are equally shitty. You just don't want people from any kind of shitty group.
Like most school clubs.

I'll have you know that my 5th grade Commander Keen fan club was a brotherhood of comradery and goodwill (would have been a siblinghood but teh cooties).

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Technician said:

You just described the Something Awful forums without irony.

So what unPC TRUTH BOMB got you banned by the web site with the gun forum, the military forum and FYAD?

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Mr. Freeze said:

Wow what a meme! What can I say, I LOVE this meme! I give it 5 out of 5 meme points!


In the vein of something PsychicPebbles would say, I lol'd pretty hard and made many XD's.

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Captain Red said:

So what unPC TRUTH BOMB got you banned by the web site with the gun forum, the military forum and FYAD?

You imply I'd pay to join the web's largest day center for autistic adults? Surely you jest. So what's your username? Maybe I've seen some of your posts capped.

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fraggle said:

I have. It may be you don't like the source of it, but it's evidence nonetheless.

That's where we're seeing things pretty much completely differently, here. It's not because I don't like the source, it's because I see most (not all) of the examples are being exaggerated with many, many presumptions being made. Correlation without causation and all that jazz. It appears to have initially been a guest article, so it doesn't necessarily represent the site's content as a whole. I'm sure the rest of the site isn't as bad (at least a chance of that), but I'm not interested enough to see.

I did some quick searching around on some of the groups mentioned in the article. Here are my thoughts on the Wikipedia articles cited in the FNVG article.

The All-Polish Youth that Jakub Stychno likes has at least officially stated that they're against both fascism and nazism (who knows if it's an "unofficial" part of their culture, but unlike you, I'm not jumping to conclusions without substantial evidence). They appear to mostly be hardline anti-secularist Catholics with their worst officially stated policy (at least during WWII) being antisemitic in nature. A detestable group, but it is a stretch to call the dev a neo-nazi over this. It looks bad, but there simply isn't sufficient evidence that this makes him a neo-nazi (at least that I have yet seen).

The Cursed Soldiers that was on one of the guy's t-shirts were a guerilla militia in Poland during WWII with an anti-communist objective. Russian officials accused them of being nazi supporters, though I don't know what the Cursed Soldiers themselves had to say about the nazis.

Apparently Polska Liga Obrony, the group favored by Destructive Creations's CEO, is nationalist (in the sense that they value the state), anti-immigration and more specifically anti-Islamic. Again, really shit group, but not nazis.

The closest piece of evidence I've seen from that article at all is about Obóz Narodowo Radykalny, and even that's kinda shaky. They sure act like nazis in that they're very nationalistic and antisemitic, even saluting in the air and claiming it was a "Roman salute" (ha, yeah right). Fuck if I know if they're actual supporters of Hitler-esque policies or if they're more general shitbags or even shitbags that don't support actual nazi-brand shitbagginess.

As for the tatoos, it sure looks bad that he's using symbols often associated with neo-nazi stuff, but many of the symbols such as ancient runes originally didn't have anything to do with it. Keep in mind, some people that go and get tatoos in Poland might be the kind of scum that would want this and the artist is merely serving his clientele.

fraggle said:

I really don't get why you're so desperate to defend these guys and believe everything they say.

Desperate? Defend? Believe their side of the story 100%? Ha, fuck no. I don't like these guys, let me make that clear. They're dangerously close to a lot of right-wing bullshit and they sure seem slightly on the scummy side, but you can't just go around echoing badly researched crap that plays more toward emotional reaction than rationally surveying the situation and claiming it as real evidence.

I'm all for being progressive and promoting values of equality, respect, fairness, etc. I'm just saying that it's intellectually dishonest to go about trying to implement that with poor methods such as making exaggerated claims against your opponent with only cursory linkage at best. I don't discount the possibility that they are neo-nazis to a partial or even full extent, or are at the very least friendly with those types of scum. Fuck, some of them probably are. But to make a claim, you need actual fucking evidence.

Lastly, it's not about defending them (I have no interest in that). It's about holding you accountable to better standards of evidence. We're both left-leaning (though certainly different personality types in that regard), I don't like your methods and think that kind of arguing holds debate and progress back.

fraggle said:

Be open-minded, sure - just don't be so "open-minded" that your brain falls out.

Cute. Likewise, my suggestion is to not be so narrow-minded that you physically crush your brain into SJW puree.

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fraggle said:

Original accusations are here, and you can read the response by the developers as well. It seems like they only responded to some of the accusations, and the explanations they provide seem like rather tenuous excuses to me.


Can't say I'm a fan of either of those developers or their games either. But I think it's deeply naive to be deliberately ignoring the context of something like this. If they're neo-nazis then sure, they're making a deliberate attempt to put a veil over their opinions - and for obvious reasons. It just makes me very uncomfortable because there's a lot of similarity between the tone and design of the game (about a man on a "genocide crusade") and the typical attitude associated with neo-nazi extremist groups.

The evidence that those are exactly the kind of political opinions that the developers hold looks pretty damning. Even if there isn't overt neo-Nazi stuff in the game it makes me uncomfortable enough that I wouldn't want to play it (and certainly not buy it).


Lmfao. That's the biggest pathetic propaganda piece I've read in a while. There's a darky or Muslim (first row, last on right) right there in the picture, and just because some dude has a tattoo and wearing shades doesn't mean he's racist. What the fuck. And to top that, there's zero evidence in that link of any neo-nazi bullshit. It's a weird piece written by some dingbat with apparent predetermined dispositions. The writer used bullet points instead of any pictures of his supposed claims.

It reminds me of the same bullshit that went on with Ferguson. There'd be no race issues had the media not blasted "black" this and "black" that in every other sentence.

"Ohh, man. That chubby guy and his shades! DO YOU SEE THOSE SKULLS!? Jim, he hates Jews, blacks, queers. God almighty!"

Those shades scream Christian, anyway. Who are you kidding?

People are dumb.

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I've never played any of the Carmageddon games, if I was going to get into the games should I start with the GoG copy of the first game?

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I never really understood the argument that games like Postal, GTA and Carmageddon are not in the same vein of Hatred because they are "tongue in cheek" and Hatred is "Serious" about their killing.

You kill people, that is what you are doing. No matter how you kill, being randomly gunning down people in the street or setting them on fire then kicking them around and then pissing on them whilst high on crack, it doesn't change the fact that you just killed that son of a bitch.

The same goes with context, the new LOL Modern Soldiers 17 game has you run around indiscriminately blasting the ever loving shit out of the "bad guys" in the name of "freedom" and "democracy" but that doesn't change the fact that you just shot several other people to death.

What is the difference? Other than context and level of "seriousness"?

-

And if you are looking for the complaints about Hatred then read the comments on the trailer videos, you may possibly grow a neckbeard and sprout a tumorous growth in the shape of a fedora just from proximity but you will find what you are looking for.

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Captain Red said:

Carmageddon 2's considered the better of the two but the first one's still a fine game.

I always preferred the original personally with it's darker style, better designed maps and the prat cam :P
I also never particularly liked the objectives in Carma 2 either and Fear Factory is better than Iron Maiden in my opinion.

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Flesh420 said:

"Ohh, man. That chubby guy and his shades! DO YOU SEE THOSE SKULLS!? Jim, he hates Jews, blacks, queers. God almighty!"

Those shades scream Christian, anyway. Who are you kidding?

People are dumb.


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fraggle said:

I really don't get why you're so desperate to defend these guys and believe everything they say. Be open-minded, sure - just don't be so "open-minded" that your brain falls out.

I love that line. Thanks Tim Minchin. :V

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