(Over)ambitious First Map WIP. Need help! (Updated version)

[Soundblock]

DooM_RO said:

I am running out of ideas on how to make them more interesting

Where you have working "uniques", consider expanding these into themes, to decorate your blanks. You might have detail-compact centerpieces that you can replicate in less density into nearby, leading up-to, or out-of areas.

This would strengthen the thematic coherency and avoid the effects of over-variation; which could end up the equivalent of tutti frutti.

Dig the simple clean-cut compblue room screenshot, shame you're going to have to mess that diamond up with powerups and monsters! Its good to keep in mind while building where spots and rows of common powerups (health kits/ammos) are going to fit in, in general - they're as much a part of the aestheteics as anything else. Place out a few in the empty rooms and make them fit with the texturing (you nailed this in the UAC screenshot).

The marble green room is without major flaws, and symmetrically pleasing, but lacks drama. How about hollowing out the walls behind the red pillars, and create pitch black coves with a couple of roaming chaingunners, to liven things up? Keep the current pillar-holding sector's frame size. Also, there's no visible light source, nor any tangible sense of direction in the lighting. Even a couple of torches in the corners, highlit by sector-brightness would help.

The UAC room is nicely varied, with great color contrasting; a good composition. The UAC logo is the only thing that looks a little jarring. Perhaps metal trims or a different motif would work better. Try moving the UAC logo into the room behind the mid-textures, on floor level?

On more organic shaping - I find staggering angles along a grid of power-of-two (8, 16, 32) works better in-game (first person), than the top-down pretty perfect circles, which often become a chore to align to the 256/128/64 textures. Bubble-circles might be better suited for smaller coves, or floor-flush shapes.

[gaspe]

Try also something new! If you haven't played them yet I suggest: Suspended in Dusk (for Doom 2) and Back to Basics (this is for Doom, both by Espi).
The maps are really great and very detailed. He made a perfect usage of the textures, both in alignments and shapes, they fit perfectly in curves and in weird angles. I think you can take a lot of inspiration from them.

[DooM_RO]

Soundblock said:

Where you have working "uniques", consider expanding these into themes, to decorate your blanks. You might have detail-compact centerpieces that you can replicate in less density into nearby, leading up-to, or out-of areas.

This would strengthen the thematic coherency and avoid the effects of over-variation; which could end up the equivalent of tutti frutti.

Dig the simple clean-cut compblue room screenshot, shame you're going to have to mess that diamond up with powerups and monsters! Its good to keep in mind while building where spots and rows of common powerups (health kits/ammos) are going to fit in, in general - they're as much a part of the aestheteics as anything else. Place out a few in the empty rooms and make them fit with the texturing (you nailed this in the UAC screenshot).

The marble green room is without major flaws, and symmetrically pleasing, but lacks drama. How about hollowing out the walls behind the red pillars, and create pitch black coves with a couple of roaming chaingunners, to liven things up? Keep the current pillar-holding sector's frame size. Also, there's no visible light source, nor any tangible sense of direction in the lighting. Even a couple of torches in the corners, highlit by sector-brightness would help.

The UAC room is nicely varied, with great color contrasting; a good composition. The UAC logo is the only thing that looks a little jarring. Perhaps metal trims or a different motif would work better. Try moving the UAC logo into the room behind the mid-textures, on floor level?

On more organic shaping - I find staggering angles along a grid of power-of-two (8, 16, 32) works better in-game (first person), than the top-down pretty perfect circles, which often become a chore to align to the 256/128/64 textures. Bubble-circles might be better suited for smaller coves, or floor-flush shapes.

Thanks again! Part of the reason why my map is taking so long is because every room has to be unique but I don't think I can keep up so I am going to start reusing stuff. Right now, my aim is to make some kind of reactor room where the red key is located using that COMP prefab I posted in the thread. Of course I will have to make others as well so that it won't get boring. Problem is the COMP family of textures don't really work well with other textures because they are so dark.

I absolutely agree that pickups contribute to the aesthetics as much as anything else. I like to use small armor and health pickups to "guide" the player, like coins indicated the most efficient route in Super Mario

gaspe said:

Try also something new! If you haven't played them yet I suggest: Suspended in Dusk (for Doom 2) and Back to Basics (this is for Doom, both by Espi).
The maps are really great and very detailed. He made a perfect usage of the textures, both in alignments and shapes, they fit perfectly in curves and in weird angles. I think you can take a lot of inspiration from them.

Oh I've played those. Very very good stuff.

[Soundblock]

I think you'll find the rooms will end up unique even if you extend certain designs and constellations. Just extend a line here, add a texture there, raise a sector there and it'll end up more of an embellishment than a straight up copy.

Oh, and I suppose I meant shotgunner up there, not chaingunner, I forgot you weren't mapping for Doom II....

[kermode]

DooM_RO said:

I do that quite frequently. Threshold of Pain (among others) is an inspiration. Problem is that while I understand how these maps work and how the author made them, I find it very difficult to incorporate these ideas.

what ideas exactly? the size or shape of the rooms, or monster placement, or how the areas interconnect, or something else?

[DooM_RO]

kermode said:

what ideas exactly? the size or shape of the rooms, or monster placement, or how the areas interconnect, or something else?

The overall atmosphere and the shape of the rooms especially. I've noticed that Scalliano likes to make L-shaped rooms. I see a lot of potential in that but I find it really hard to replicate that. Almost all of the yellow keycard zones were inspired by his map style.

[kermode]

with the look & overall atmosphere of a level just remember you can control everything, like the lighting, size & shape of rooms & areas, textures, & everything else. just note what you like about a map & do something similar. it might still end up looking like "one of yours" in the end anyway, which wouldn't be a bad thing though.

[DooM_RO]

Hey guys, I've made quite a bit of progress on my maps in the last months (at least for my very slow standards) but still feel like I need constructive criticism and guidance. I really want this map to be the best it can be.

At the moment, the part containing the BLUE keycard is around 85-90% finished, the one containing the YELLOW card is about 30% (and is the one I feel really stuck at), the one containing the RED keycard about 60% and finally the last area maybe 75%.

Constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated. Keep in mind that some rooms are very unfinished and barebones (because I don't know what to do with them)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f3csltj362mg1i6/UAC%20Headquarters.wad?dl=0

The second map set in Hell is around 30% complete.

As a reminder, the maps are for DOOM and the levels are E1M7 and E1M8.

Although it uses only vanilla stuff I highly recommend using Smooth Doom with it.

KEEP IN MIND THIS IS MY FIRST MAP! Don't be TOO harsh and please don't be an asshole.

[scifista42]

With a new release, I'm going to ask again:

scifista42 said:

You should decide what the intended compatibility is (vanilla? / limit-removing? / Boom? / ZDoom?), clearly state it, and ensure it actually works in the port/exe when you claim it should. So, what is the intended compatibility?

[DooM_RO]

Limit-removing using only vanilla resources which is the reason why I made it for Doom 1 since Doom 2 lacks a ton of Doom 1 textures.

[scifista42]

OK, I'll try playing it in PrBoom-plus -complevel 2, then.

Also:

DooM_RO said:

KEEP IN MIND THIS IS MY FIRST MAP! Don't be TOO harsh and please don't be an asshole.

And you don't take it as harshness when people honestly tell you what they didn't like if they honestly didn't like something.

[DooM_RO]

scifista42 said:

OK, I'll try playing it in PrBoom-plus -complevel 2, then.

Also:
And you don't take it as harshness when people honestly tell you what they didn't like if they honestly didn't like something.

I know, I can take it as long as you're not assholes about it and provide reasons and possible solutions for what you think is wrong.

[scifista42]

I've played E1M7 (demo here, play it in PrBoom-plus), and it's full of zdoomisms, apparently zero tags on S1/SR/W1/WR/G1/GR action linedefs intended to affect the sector on the back side of the linedef, which only works in ZDoom, while in classic ports this will affect all sectors with tag 0 in the entire map, unless the linedef action was D1 or DR. Don't claim "limit-removing" compatibility without properly testing it in the "least-advanced" limit-removing compatible port, for which PrBoom-plus -complevel 2 suffices. I've told you about this a year ago, you've apparently learned nothing. I also got stuck in the end, due to a passable railing texture.

[DooM_RO]

scifista42 said:

I've played E1M7 (demo here, play it in PrBoom-plus), and it's full of zdoomisms, apparently zero tags on S1/SR/W1/WR/G1/GR action linedefs intended to affect the sector on the back side of the linedef, which only works in ZDoom, while in classic ports this will affect all sectors with tag 0 in the entire map, unless the linedef action was D1 or DR. Don't claim "limit-removing" compatibility without properly testing it in the "least-advanced" limit-removing compatible port, for which PrBoom-plus -complevel 2 suffices. I've told you about this a year ago, you've apparently learned nothing. I also got stuck in the end, due to a passable railing texture.

I see. I indend to take care of that but I keep forgetting.

What about the layout, detailing and balancing?

[scifista42]

The layout was giant, while I only visited little of it, so I can't judge its nonlinearity and possible navigation issues. Architecture was way too orthogonal (nearly everywhere) for my preference. Detailing itself was OK, except that some rooms still felt comparatively much more bland than others. Also, I still thought that the balance of monster and item placement was very improportionate, up to boring due to such a low monster density in most places I've visited.

[DooM_RO]

Alright. I fixed the railing.

Can someone play the whole maps in Zdoom while I still iron out the problems that prevent it from working on PrBoom+? I would really like to get some feedback on the maps as a whole, not just technical stuff. I'm doing my best but I'd like to hear what you guys have to say.

I would really appreciate a more detailed analysis.

[DooM_RO]

No one wants to give it a chance? I assure you, it's much better than your average newbie map.

[scifista42]

By not showing screenshots in the OP and in the last post with the download, and not editing thread title to announce a new download link since last year, you don't make your situation better.

[DooM_RO]

You have a point.

[dt_]

Ill have a go at it. I generally play in zdoom so it all should work. How big is it exactly, maybe post a top down map shot aswell so people know what they're letting themselves in for/whether they need a full afternoon to explore it!

[baja blast rd.]

You're going to have to design the rails differently so that they don't clip through the floor in prBoom+.



I wouldn't say that it's much better than an average newbie map. That would certainly be the case if it were an actual finished map, but it's not.

One concern of mine is that almost every indoor area looks underdetailed compared to the start room -- and not just the clearly unfinished indoor areas, either. That room looks quite nice and uses a mix of primary structural textures, whereas there are a lot of areas that use only one primary structural texture over large walls, in which case even high detail won't make it look as refined as the start area.

[DooM_RO]

rdwpa said:

You're going to have to design the rails differently so that they don't clip through the floor in prBoom+.

http://i.imgur.com/sTgxAMh.png

I wouldn't say that it's much better than an average newbie map. That would certainly be the case if it were an actual finished map, but it's not.

One concern of mine is that almost every indoor area looks underdetailed compared to the start room -- and not just the clearly unfinished indoor areas, either. That room looks quite nice and uses a mix of primary structural textures, whereas there are a lot of areas that use only one primary structural texture over large walls, in which case even high detail won't make it look as refined as the start area.

You're right. I'm still working out how to detail those big rooms, particularly the hub area.

dt_ said:

Ill have a go at it. I generally play in zdoom so it all should work. How big is it exactly, maybe post a top down map shot aswell so people know what they're letting themselves in for/whether they need a full afternoon to explore it!

Well I know the map inside out and it takes me 23 minutes to finish.

Here is a top-down view.

[Deadwing]

For a first map you surely have put a lot of effort into detailing and size, more than any of my maps lol

I agree with everyone here, though, just move on and try to focus on smaller maps, where you can develop your skills easier and get easier feedbacks. After a while, you can go back to this and have a clearer vision on where to improve.

I haven't played the level, but tbh, I quite don't like levels that take more than 15~20 min to finish, but that's just me.

[Mithran Denizen]

I gave this map a rushed try this morning, but quit after getting stuck behind the tram car. From the initial areas I saw, and from a quick IDDT of the layout, it looks promising for a first map. I'll give it another shot later tonight when I have more time.

Honestly, I don't think I'm physically capable of enjoying a map this long/large without any chaingunners or mancubuses. But given the amount of effort you've put in so far, I'll give it an honest try for the sake of feedback, if nothing else.

[DooM_RO]

Mithran Denizen said:

I gave this map a rushed try this morning, but quit after getting stuck behind the tram car. From the initial areas I saw, and from a quick IDDT of the layout, it looks promising for a first map. I'll give it another shot later tonight when I have more time.

Honestly, I don't think I'm physically capable of enjoying a map this long/large without any chaingunners or mancubuses. But given the amount of effort you've put in so far, I'll give it an honest try for the sake of feedback, if nothing else.

Oh my god, why didn't I think people could fall off the platform?!!

There are two maps BTW.

[dt_]

Hi mate, here ya go

Had to fix a few linedefs and a couple of sectors to get the map to run for me, and on playing noticed a couple of other iffy sectors (#1050, #2763 #884)

I like this kind of map, really casual old school play, massive exploratory environment. Has some areas that look ace, and some that look shit. I can see that it is very much a work in progress. The area before and surrounding the blue key looked good, this is clearly the more finished area, the main outside area to the centre and southwestern area is clearly the area that needs more work (you acknowledge this in the thread). The map also feels like a map of two halves, almost like two separate maps grafted together- once you get to the central area with the red/yellow key switches, you don't ever return to the start area with the exception of picking up the yellow key where you can see back into the original subway area. I would have liked to have been led back through that area, maybe with some added optional red/yellow key action revealing powerups or optional comedy battles.

The layout is actually quite intuitive despite it's unfinishedness; it's usually quite clear where to go once keys are picked up/switches thrown. But I will say that it's sometimes not clear what's a door and what's not a door, especially early on.

Loads of places to fall in and get stuck, pretty much every cavern/outdoor area with liquid in the bottom, and the subway area at the start. Also, I noticed that if you don't get the blue key, and leave the room, the switch to enter the room is an S1; there's no way back into the room without the key that is then locked within. The floor lowering switch is also an 'SW2' texture meaning that it already looks pressed, causing me to think that I'd already pressed it and there was some other way to lower the blue key, hence my original reason for leaving without it. A fair few random zero height sector 'walls' aswell. Just delete the sector, DB will not delete the linedefs, however you will need to apply 'middle' textures to all the walls of that sector.

Couple of walls wearing 'door1' texture are too tall for it, meaning it repeats slightly at the top and looks a bit daft. A fair few missed doortraks and computer panels that can be stepped into, but this has already been mentioned I think. I'd say a good nine out of ten midtex railings clip into the floor, the best way to sort this is to give the sectors on both sides of the railing linedef a lighting differential. If you need the area to appear at the same light level (ie outside) give the sector on one side of the linedef 192, and the other 193. This is unnoticeable in game and sorts the issue.

-20 nukage is a bit harsh on the toes when battling all those cacos after activating yellow key switch, I'd keep this strength for death exits and inescapable death pits (which seem to piss people off anyway and probably should be avoided). Low strength nukage is enough to keep players out of it when fighting. Could use a few more rockets there I think.

I'd suggest tossing the player an automap early on (maybe in the front of the subway car as the driver's navigation system) as it's easy (for me) to get lost in maps this large.

So to sum up, it's a WIP and it obviously needs more ammo and health balance towards the end, and it's clear that some of the monsters are placeholders. I'd also try to tie in the first more complete area more with the rest of the map, or consider splitting it up into 2 maps. You also say you are struggling with the later, larger areas. From what i've seen your map's strong points are the corridor/smaller rooms, so i'd seriously think about shrinking some of the rooms down or dividing them up a bit, might be less intimidating from a mappers point of view. Sometimes I sort out a couple of smaller rooms with detail etc, and then combine them into a larger room where necessary. Play 'vela pax' for inspiration, it's excellent (if your computer has got the balls to run it), think Mechadon has been working at it for a good few years now and it shows; you will need to invest a lot of time into this map to bring it to the standard of that start area. Maybe consider changing it to doom2 for a bit more monster variety and using a doom texture pack if available.

Otherwise great for a first work, keep it up!

[DooM_RO]

Thank you so much! The map was actually even bigger but after that Baron Doors at the end I decided to split the Hell part into a new level because I started to get errors and I forgot that you can't use Skull keys separately from Keycards which destroyed my progression. What do you think of the second map? It is about 50% finished.

You know, the reason I made that hub area after the Blue Key is because of the Plasma Rifle. I mean, it is right at the end of the Blue Key area and I thought it needed to have a climactic battle or some other use so I expanded it. I also like maps that have a sense of "adventure" to them which is one of the reasons why it's so big.

One solution would be to split the keycard areas into different levels...problem is that the Yellow and maybe Red Keycard area do not really stand on their own.

My biggest trouble is making the layout. I have a really really hard time making levels that do not start as squares and have verticality...it's like my brain instantly shuts down. The thing is that when I play really really good maps I can approach them from a designer point of view but when it comes to my map...my brain just shuts down. It would be really cool if a prolific mapper from here recorded himself making a map, explaining to newbies why he puts that there and why he makes that room there and why it has that shape. There are plenty of tutorials covering the basic stuff but none that offer more advanced stuff like how to make a layout.

For example, I want behind that platform that contains the red key to be some kind of reactor made of COMP textures but I'm not sure how to do it. Most of the time spent working on my map is not actually working but staring at the screen like an idiot. Many times, I haven't got the idea how to make even the simplest rooms. Take for instance the area after the one containing the Yellow Card. I simply have no idea how to make a room full of boxes that looks good and has interesting gameplay. I want it to be some kind of port with lots of boxes but...

It's all really strange because that first area with the UAC logo? That is the third iteration of that room and you know what? I made it all in like an hour. Sometimes I have this spark that puts me back on track. There used to be no cavern area in the Blue Card area until like two weeks ago. I made that area after making a room (the one that has the chaingun) inspired by a Doom 4 screenshot and then I made a nice loop and I said to myself "hmm why not make the cavern complete with an optional area?" and that is how the Soulsphere secret was made.

I really sorely miss the Doom 2 resources but would it still be considered a map made with vanilla if I converted it to Doom 2 and used a wad containing the Doom 1 textures? I really wanted to put a couple of archviles in the Baron maze and chaingunners and Doom 2 textures. Problem is that Doom 2 lacks a shit ton of Tech textures. I am quite proud of the fact that this map was made using only Doom 1 textures. The next map project will be made using custom textures. The Doom 1 stuff is very limiting.

dt_ said:

The map also feels like a map of two halves, almost like two separate maps grafted together- once you get to the central area with the red/yellow key switches, you don't ever return to the start area with the exception of picking up the yellow key where you can see back into the original subway area. I would have liked to have been led back through that area, maybe with some added optional red/yellow key action revealing powerups or optional comedy battles.

That's a great idea, but I'm not sure how I would balance it.

I did consider putting an Area Map but I think it's too powerful in larger maps...maybe I could put it in the starting area but requiring a later keycard...or something else. Maybe I could put rockets there. I want this map to rely more on the Rocket Launcher but I want ammo for it to be scarce.

[Chris Hansen]

This might be a bit disappointing to you, as I promised you some feedback. But looking through this thread I really don't have that much else to offer in terms of advice, as I think all the good people here have really provided you with a lot of valuable and constructive critisism!

But I will say this: This map is good and shows a lot of potential! Keep doing what you're doing and everything will be fine. Big maps require a lot of effort and time invested into it before it works, but it will be worth it in the end :)

[DooM_RO]

Guys, I'm having a bit of trouble. As mentioned before, the WAD uses only vanilla textures and functions however, my second map (which has evolved over the last days) is in Hell and would like to use a the E3 skybox. How could I do this?

@ChrisHansen

Thank you!!

[scifista42]

If you're aiming for limit-removing compatibility, all you can do is to put the map to a slot in a different episode, because you can't have different skies in the same episode. If you were aiming for Boom compatibility (precisely PrBoom-plus -complevel 9), you would use linedef action "271: Transfer Sky" to set a custom sky for a sector with a particular tag, and put one such action for each tag of sectors under the sky in your map. If you were aiming for ZDoom compatibility, you would use MAPINFO to simply set a custom sky for the whole level.