Brutal Doom v20 released

[Doomkid]

Shooting through 24-wide walls....? Whaaa....???

[Reisal]

Doomkid said:

Shooting through 24-wide walls....? Whaaa....???

I call that feature unbalancing.

[doom_is_great]

axdoom1 said:

I wonder if id will make Doom 4 like Brutal Doom. I'm sure they are aware of the mod's popularity.

Telling from what has been said about the demo, they've definitely taken inspiration from it.

[DooM_RO]

[dew]

doom_is_great said:
Telling from what has been said about the demo, they've definitely taken inspiration from it.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Touchdown]

It's funny how some people have convinced themselves that DOOM4 will be like Brutal Doom. Based on literally nothing. They haven't seen it, they haven't played it, NOBODY reported that it's like Brutal Doom and in fact GoatLord said it's nothing like Brutal Doom... But sure, they know better. Because reasons.

[axdoomer]

Touchdown said:

It's funny how some people have convinced themselves that DOOM4 will be like Brutal Doom. Based on literally nothing. They haven't seen it, they haven't played it, NOBODY reported that it's like Brutal Doom

What do you do about that?

GoatLord said:

As for comparisons to Brutal Doom, the blood and gore is very extreme, but appropriate within the context of the combat. The melee attacks never slow down gameplay and happen within the POV in the span of a couple of seconds.

GoatLord said:

We only got into this debate because Doom 4 has fatalities, but it's pretty clear from the demo that the player performs these attacks on his own volition rather than responding to a prompt.

Melee attacks, fatalities, blood and gore, extreme violence. Pretty much like Brutal Doom, huh?

[Touchdown]

No, because the same description fits BioShock Infinite. Blood and gore, melee attacks, fatalities. Is BSI like Brutal Doom to you? No, because a game is more than just two cherrypicked features. You can also say that Deus Ex is the same as DOOM because in both of them you run around and shoot things.

Besides, that's the funny part, is DOOM4 not allowed to have gore now without someone making references to Brutal Doom? In addition, I don't know if you're familiar with the modern gaming world but pretty much EVERY action game has fatalities/takedowns. But when DOOM4 has them, it has to be taken from Brutal Doom! Not one of the hundred other AAA games.

Finally, you missed the point of the quotes you provided, because the thing is yes, there is extreme gore and fatalities but unlike Brutal Doom they're handled appropriately and do not slow down the gameplay.

Bottom line, I'm not saying some stuff in DOOM4 is not inspired by Brutal Doom, I don't know. But even if it is, two features (that are in no way exclusive to BD) will not magically make the entire, profesionally made, big budget game play like a mod (which people seem to believe for some reason). And really, going "gore/fatalities? Brutal Doom!" is just bias.

[Antroid]

It's kind of amazing how brutal doom manages to go exactly, perfectly 180 degrees against what Doom has always been for me and what I always wanted out of it. Like, every step it makes is in a direction I want to avoid. Personally, if someone who isn't all that into doom says that they've got a new appreciation for "them old games" after playing bd, I don't consider them as actually having played doom or an old game. Fuck that.

Also since Doom 4 has been brought up, I kind of really hope it hasn't been in any way influenced by BD's popularity. Doom 3 was a near perfect representation of the pre-custom-maps and pre-getting-good-at-the-game Doom 1, and if they themselves buy into the popular (but so, so erroneus) idea of what Doom is and make it Serious Sam-like in the protag's near-invincibility and badassery and the demons' non-intimidation factor, it'll ruin the game for me. Melee takedowns seem like something that's going exactly in that direction and I don't like it. The only thing I like less is all the people jizzing about how "BD is what Doom was supposed to be" or "BD is the true successor of Doom". If such people were a race, I would be the biggest racist on the face of the planet.

[Jaxxoon R]

I imagine they've looked a bit at the features that proved to be the most popular amongst younger folks in Brutal Doom, but of course did their own thing in terms of implementation.

And seeing as the revenants are just as capable of ripping and tearing as you are, if not more, I don't really worry about the protagonist being too strong. If anything, more of a glass cannon like in the originals.

[Job]

Jaxxoon R said:

I imagine they've looked a bit at the features that proved to be the most popular amongst younger folks in Brutal Doom, but of course did their own thing in terms of implementation.

And seeing as the revenants are just as capable of ripping and tearing as you are, if not more, I don't really worry about the protagonist being too strong. If anything, more of a glass cannon like in the originals.

Agreed. This is a good post.

[SavageCorona]

Better hope it's not rushed like the last version.

[Linguica]

Well? How is it??

[SyntherAugustus]

BlackFish said:

For anybody running the latest doodle broom you need to edit your keyconf if you plan on using the vanilla character. Add VanillaBFG9000 to setslot 7.

Other than that, it's an interesting release. I haven't played it very much though but the Vanilla mode seems pretty fun.

[Deleted_Account]

I downloaded Brutal Doom v20 yesterday, haven't played it yet. I don't think the maps that Sergeant_Mark_IV created are ready yet, I was looking forward to those the most I think. I generally don't play Brutal Doom often, but am curious about the changes made for this version so I'll check it out today.

[DooM_RO]

Linguica said:

Well? How is it??

Dual wielding Assault Rifles and Plasma Guns is pretty fun, if a bit OP.

[Sergeant_Mark_IV]

Antroid said:

It's kind of amazing how brutal doom manages to go exactly, perfectly 180 degrees against what Doom has always been for me and what I always wanted out of it. Like, every step it makes is in a direction I want to avoid. Personally, if someone who isn't all that into doom says that they've got a new appreciation for "them old games" after playing bd, I don't consider them as actually having played doom or an old game. Fuck that.

Also since Doom 4 has been brought up, I kind of really hope it hasn't been in any way influenced by BD's popularity. Doom 3 was a near perfect representation of the pre-custom-maps and pre-getting-good-at-the-game Doom 1, and if they themselves buy into the popular (but so, so erroneus) idea of what Doom is and make it Serious Sam-like in the protag's near-invincibility and badassery and the demons' non-intimidation factor, it'll ruin the game for me. Melee takedowns seem like something that's going exactly in that direction and I don't like it. The only thing I like less is all the people jizzing about how "BD is what Doom was supposed to be" or "BD is the true successor of Doom". If such people were a race, I would be the biggest racist on the face of the planet.

Let me guess, you haven't played it yet?
Many people claim that BD goes on the "wrong" direction because of the iron sights and the fatalities, but in fact, it doesn't.
For example, yes you can aim down the sights, but it feels nothing like Call of Duty. Your speed is not reduced when you are aiming, and even when you are firing from the hip, you are more 20% accurate than when firing with vanilla Doom weapons. And the fatalities, yes, they used to slow down the game in older versions, since they used to take 6 or 7 seconds each, but now as you can see in the trailer, they just take two or three seconds each.

Piper Maru said:

I downloaded Brutal Doom v20 yesterday, haven't played it yet. I don't think the maps that Sergeant_Mark_IV created are ready yet, I was looking forward to those the most I think. I generally don't play Brutal Doom often, but am curious about the changes made for this version so I'll check it out today.

They are postponed. I was not able to finish them and I didn't wanted to delay the actual mod's release. I'm going to release it on the following weeks.

[DooM_RO]

Sergeant_Mark_IV said:

Let me guess, you haven't played it yet?
Many people claim that BD goes on the "wrong" direction because of the iron sights and the fatalities, but in fact, it doesn't.
For example, yes you can aim down the sights, but it feels nothing like Call of Duty. Your speed is not reduced when you are aiming, and even when you are firing from the hip, you are more 20% accurate than when firing with vanilla Doom weapons. And the fatalities, yes, they used to slow down the game in older versions, since they used to take 6 or 7 seconds each, but now as you can see in the trailer, they just take two or three seconds each.


They are postponed. I was not able to finish them and I didn't wanted to delay the actual mod's release. I'm going to release it on the following weeks.

I don't think you understand. Don't get me wrong, I really like Brutal Doom but I consider it separate from the "real" Doom experience. I think what some people have against your mod is that it very heavily fucks up the carefully thought-out balance in custom maps and IWADs alike. Whole sections of a WAD can become trivial or way too hard. Also, due to high media exposure it might also make newcomers think that vanilla Doom is old, irrelevant and that BD is superior in every way despite the fact that I don't think you want that. For these reasons, a lot of us have shifted away from BD. When I want a violent Doom experience, Smooth Doom is more than enough.

That said, I think BD is a fun alternative to traditional Dooming but it does in no way replace or is in no way better than vanilla Doom as some of your fans suggest.

P.S Can we get a Brutal Hatred please?

[Antroid]

Actually, the direction stuff I mentioned wasn't about moving away from, like, a speedy action shooter towards a more modernized experience. I don't really have an opinion on that.

I meant that Brutal Doom seems to focus on the aspects of Doom that I never thought were important, or even really there at all. From what I understand, it's making the marine a more badass, bloodthirsty kinda character, and makes emphasis on how fun he finds murdering hordes of demons. The gameplay is probably still hard (or harder) but from my impressions the general mood is "these fuckin demons are going to pay because I'm coming to blow them all the fuck up" or something.

Whereas I've always seen the marine as someone who's doing his best to stay calm and collected in the face of overwhelming odds and an completely alien, mind-bending threat, all the while going slightly insane (not in the crazy violent way, though - more like gradually accepting of all the bizarre hell shit). To me, doom never was about the violence and killing lots of demons like a badass. It's been much more about survival against pure evil that's COOOOMING FOR YOOOOOUUU. The doomguy's personality thread in the doom 4 forum is closer to the topic, actually.

So yeah, Doom 3 to me is much truer to the spirit of Doom than BD. But, of course, I can't judge very objectively because I have in fact never played it, that was a correct guess. It just doesn't interest me, so I probably never will as well. To be honest, I feel like the sentiment has been adequately expressed in my previous comment, so I dunno why Mark assumed I was upset over the game being slowed down or something.

[Sandstormer]

Sergeant_Mark_IV, I thought that you were winding this down and focusing on other projects, but it appears that is not the case. You've put a lot of hard work into this mod and I respect your dedication. I looked over your change log and watched a few youtube vids of v2.0. It looks like you are making some nice changes such as making blood levels adjustable and including a vanilla/purist mode for those who prefer classic style. I also like the idea of letting the baron/hell knight interact with barrels. It adds another variable to the action and spices up the gameplay a bit. One of my biggest recommendations for this mod was making a level set that is designed specifically to work with it, and it appears that you have done exactly that. Good job on that. It would've been nice if the new levels were available at launch, but if they are not finished then it is better to wait instead of rushing and potentially screwing them up. I think that you should make the taunts and scream durations toggleable, as well. Some people are going to hate the mod no matter what you do with it because they have nothing better to do. Don't worry about them. Looks like you are doing what you need to do to move the mod in a good direction. Keep up your hard work.

[doom_is_great]

I agree that Brutal Doom is a different experience from traditional Doom. Not necessarily better or worse, just different.

For example, a couple of months ago, I played through Knee Deep in Zdoom, one time without Brutal Doom and another time with Brutal Doom. The time I played it without Brutal Doom, in some respects it was harder. Some of the weapons in Brutal Doom such as the minigun and the dual wielding assault rifles make it easy to mow down hordes of demons. The traditional chaingun isn't nearly as deadly so mowing down hordes takes a lot longer and gives the enemies more time to gang up on you and corner you, therefore, you feel more vulnerable and powerless.

That's the one thing I missed from the vanilla mode of Classic Doom: the feeling of being overwhelmed, powerless, and just having more overall anxiety due to such powerlessness. Brutal Doom kind of takes away some of that due to the fact that your weapons are now so powerful.

None of this is to say that Brutal Doom is bad, is just a different take on Doom. Even though your weapons are so powerful, levels and wads can still be extremely hard and you can still get that feeling of being overwhelmed and powerless, but it depends on how the level is designed.

[Antroid]

doom_is_great said:

That's the one thing I missed from the vanilla mode of Classic Doom: the feeling of being overwhelmed, powerless, and just having more overall anxiety due to such powerlessness. Brutal Doom kind of takes away some of that due to the fact that your weapons are now so powerful.

Exactly (good to see I wasn't too off the mark with my impression of BD). The only reason why I am annoyed with brutal doom's "legacy" so to speak, is that outside of the actual modding communities, when BD is immediately advised to everyone who remembers Doom, people tend to say that BD is how "true" doom was meant to be, which is IMO absolute rubbish.
You can have your own opinions on how much BD's popularity may have influenced the upcoming doom 4 (some say it didn't really, some think it did), but it's IMO quite possible that id saw what people at large think they want out of doom and elected to lean into that direction.

[Jaxxoon R]

I thought you said you'd make the gunads toggleable?

Oh well, I'm really looking forward to the level pack at least. I was never one for gameplay mods, but I'm all for levels that take advantage of their strengths and are actually a complete experience.

In fact, one reason I don't like Demonsteel much is because the increased mobility can lead to you getting trapped in areas you were never meant to reach since almost zero levels were designed with it in mind.

[Hells Kitchen]

I enjoy playing a couple of maps with brutal doom every now and again but for most of my dooming I use the ketchup mod. V20 introduces some some good features, like ability to control blood, janitor, vanilla monster options etc from within the game, but some of the promised features which I was really looking forward to are not there.

-The corpses are not shootable as originally promised, despite the bugs being apparently worked out

-No option to toggle the shotgun ball sack

-BFG not selectable in classic mode

-Rocket launcher has next to no splash damage, i.e. I shoot a wall right next to a zombie and they just get right back up.

In the meantime I think I'll stick to v19 SE and its mutators as it offers a more satisfying experience.

[DooM_RO]

Brutal Doom would be far far better if it had it's own levels, specially designed around its gameplay. How are BHOE and Extermination Day coming along? When can we download them?

[mouldy]

I had a quick go, its cool that there are built in options for vanilla monsters and weapons. However there are some problems:

The weapon switching when you pick up a new weapon or run out of ammo doesn't seem to work properly. In modern mode I found myself automatically switching to chainsaw sometimes when I ran out, and in classic mode it just doesn't seem to switch at all, pretty sure I have weapon switching enabled in the gzdoom options.

The berserk fist doesn't seem to work very well. One of the reasons to play in classic mode is that a lot of wads will give you a berserk and a whole bunch of pinkies, and you can't deal with that when you have those fatalities after every punch, but in classic mode it was taking a number of punches to kill stuff where normally it would take one or two.

The blur sphere should be included either in the option to play with vanilla monsters or weapons. There are a lot of wads where using the blur sphere is integral to the gameplay.

The revenant missile seems really weirdly slow. I remember it being loads faster in older BD versions, and maybe its been toned down, but it seems slower than even vanilla for some reason.

The blood pools on the ground look a bit weird when monsters die on the edge of platforms, dunno what can be done about that.

As someone who uses the mouse scroll wheel to change weapon, adding the dual weapons really throws me off. I'd prefer those to be some kind of toggle option or a secondary attack maybe.

[illuknisaa]

I haven't played much v20 (I've only played v19 before) but overall I think brutal doom is propably the best fps experience released in recent years and brutal doom is the biggest reason why I bother mapping and playing doom.

Criticism I have:

-My first impression with the shotgun strap was that it looks like a ball sack (I kinda think its funny)
- While kick was a bit op nerfing it had an unfortunate side effect of not being able kick barrels far enough.
- Grenades are cool and usefull but they are really rare. I wish zombies could sometimes drop a nade.
- Now that you can dual wield I wonder what is the point of chaingun? No mag size?
-No maps?!?! I most excited for new maps.

What I like in v20 is that there is less screaming. It could get really annoyig when you have multiple imps complaining how they have no lower body.

[Hells Kitchen]

According to the BD facebook page, the author is working on a V20b, which will apparently feature better performance, a possible option for shootable corpses (hopefully) and bug fixes.

I am somewhat disappointed with the current V20. Stuff that was hyped up and promised is not there. Apparently, the only reason why shootable corpses are not featured this time round is because it causes lag. Well, V20 as a whole does not run any smoother than my V19 SE installation (with mutators to enable shootable corpses, permanent blood etc). Lots of stuff that was hyped for weeks is nowhere to be found. Hopefully V20b addresses this.

[TheAngryDoomMarine]

Antroid said:

Actually, the direction stuff I mentioned wasn't about moving away from, like, a speedy action shooter towards a more modernized experience. I don't really have an opinion on that.

I meant that Brutal Doom seems to focus on the aspects of Doom that I never thought were important, or even really there at all. From what I understand, it's making the marine a more badass, bloodthirsty kinda character, and makes emphasis on how fun he finds murdering hordes of demons. The gameplay is probably still hard (or harder) but from my impressions the general mood is "these fuckin demons are going to pay because I'm coming to blow them all the fuck up" or something.

Whereas I've always seen the marine as someone who's doing his best to stay calm and collected in the face of overwhelming odds and an completely alien, mind-bending threat, all the while going slightly insane (not in the crazy violent way, though - more like gradually accepting of all the bizarre hell shit). To me, doom never was about the violence and killing lots of demons like a badass. It's been much more about survival against pure evil that's COOOOMING FOR YOOOOOUUU. The doomguy's personality thread in the doom 4 forum is closer to the topic, actually.

So yeah, Doom 3 to me is much truer to the spirit of Doom than BD. But, of course, I can't judge very objectively because I have in fact never played it, that was a correct guess. It just doesn't interest me, so I probably never will as well. To be honest, I feel like the sentiment has been adequately expressed in my previous comment, so I dunno why Mark assumed I was upset over the game being slowed down or something.

this entirely sums up my thoughts on BD. I wouldn't care about it as much if people didn't keep saying how Brutal Doom is directly how Doom is supposed to be. None of the new things added impress or make me want to keep playing. Like other people have said before, all the new additions just don't look or feel good in Doom's engine because of how old it is. Everything Mark has added fits right in modern games, because that's where they came from. Modern games. Doom's pixelated and minimalistic design is what makes it's charm for me.

[Pirx]

Antroid said:

I meant that Brutal Doom seems to focus on the aspects of Doom that I never thought were important, or even really there at all. From what I understand, it's making the marine a more badass, bloodthirsty kinda character, and makes emphasis on how fun he finds murdering hordes of demons. The gameplay is probably still hard (or harder) but from my impressions the general mood is "these fuckin demons are going to pay because I'm coming to blow them all the fuck up" or something.

Whereas I've always seen the marine as someone who's doing his best to stay calm and collected in the face of overwhelming odds and an completely alien, mind-bending threat, all the while going slightly insane (not in the crazy violent way, though - more like gradually accepting of all the bizarre hell shit). To me, doom never was about the violence and killing lots of demons like a badass. It's been much more about survival against pure evil that's COOOOMING FOR YOOOOOUUU. The doomguy's personality thread in the doom 4 forum is closer to the topic, actually.

i couldn't agree more. see, the doom manual says:

"You're a marine, one of Earth's toughest, hardened in combat and trained for action.".

so doomguy is a member of an elite fighting force, who are disciplined professionals, not gun-wielding maniacs. whatever happens, he just clenches his teeth and goes on. this is how i've always seen doomguy's personality. this is the spirit of a more "serious", competitive play, which focuses on beating a map, not necessarily on dismembering whatever stands in your way.

now if mark decided to focus on satisfyingly splatter demons and kick their remains around, i have no problem with that. brutal doom is so over the top gory it's comical. having some mindless fun by kicking corpses around, why not. plenty of people seem to like this, or BD wouldn't have become the most popular doom mod.

actually this is its problem, it seems, because many players, especially veterans, don't like this "BD is what doom was meant to be" babble. it's like a song you like initially, until you hear it so often that you get to hate it.