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Sergeek

Port suggestion

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Greetings, fellow doomers!
For the most of my demon-killing career I used GZDoom suite. Yet now, I grew frustrated because of some limitations, mainly:
1. Widescreen play - 14:9 ratio puts those ugly bricks on your status bar, black stripes over the splash screen
2. FoV - it is not a constant value, forcing me to bind it and restore to desired value every time
3. Dynamic lights bleeding - how I love the glow of lost souls, but this wall penetration is annoying
So that's why I'm here - I want a source port that will offer the same level of eyecandy, modern features, but without those issues and still with support of most modern MODs/WADs.
Can't you suggest something like that, please?

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Such a thing does not exist.

Some remarks:

1. What are posts supposed to do with widescreen displays when all resources are made for 4:3?

2. What do you mean FoV is not a constant value?

3. This cannot be solved with how Doom levels work. The only port which ever had some real light clipping was Vavoom but that's a) dead and b) was nearly broken due to a massive amount of bugs. To achieve what it did it used Quake's renderer but that brought a whole load of other issues.

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Sergeek said:

1. Widescreen play - 14:9 ratio puts those ugly bricks on your status bar, black stripes over the splash screen

Seriously, just select the appropriate Screen Resolution for your screen, that should eliminate this issue .

Sergeek said:

2. FoV - it is not a constant value, forcing me to bind it and restore to desired value every time

If you mean "FOV" setting not saving after you set it up, i guess you're wrong .

Sergeek said:

Dynamic lights bleeding - how I love the glow of lost souls, but this wall penetration is annoying

That's another thing you need to do alone , GZDoom or any port based on it as you can see offers many Dynamic lights settings, just set it up the way you wish :

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Sergeek said:

modern features ... and still with support of most modern MODs/WADs.

This is very vague.

Do you mean the features that ZDoom brings, and modern .wads as in ZDoom .wads? Those aren't the only type of modern .wads, but only ZDoom-based ports will run them, and other modern source ports use their own way to define new contents and such, which are usually incompatible with ZDoom's methods.

Though if you mean modern as in just released somewhat recently, then there are a ton of modern vanilla, limit removing, and Boom mapsets, which most modern source ports support, although usually you'll get nothing more from those than just maps, graphics, and audio.

Regardless, if you do want modern ZDoom-based content, you have three options:

ZDoom, the base source port which uses a modified version of Doom's standard software renderer. It cannot do dynamic lights at all; the closest thing it can accomplish are colored flares or colored sector lighting, although neither of those are remotely close to dynamic lights. It also cannot generate graphical content out of the blue, so graphics only support widescreen if they were created for widescreen.

GZDoom, which you've already expressed dissatisfaction over.

Zandronum, which has multiplayer components that are far better suited for most people compared to ZDoom's, but its codebase is behind and you can't play most recent ZDoom releases unless they were also designed with it in mind. Also, it uses an outdated version of GZDoom's renderer, so it also has no clipping for dynamic lights nor can it generate graphical content out of the blue, either, so non-widescreen graphics will still get cut off.

Your other options for modern source ports are Eternity, 3DGE, and ... I'm not really sure if there are any more, at least not ones the supply the content I'm assuming you're desiring. Both have ways to define their own actors and have scripting systems, but both are also completely incompatible with ZDoom-based .wads to my knowledge and aren't as popular to create stuff for. Additionally, Eternity is software only and cannot make non-widescreen graphics fit for widescreen. 3DGE I'm not so sure about; I'm pretty sure it has a hardware renderer and might even cull dynamic lights correctly, but it's even less popular than Eternity.

So basically, you'll have to make do with 1, and either make do with 3 as well or just switch to a software renderer. 2 you might be able to fix by placing your desired FOV in an autoexec file, though.

( if you're not catching on, no source port can make up for non-widescreen graphics on a widescreen resolution, because no source port can look at arbitrary graphics with a human's eye and then immediately apply appropriate changes from errors it detects. That's a bit beyond the scope of source ports for anything, and I'm not even sure if we currently have the tech to do something like that period )

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Graf Zahl said:
What are posts supposed to do with widescreen displays when all resources are made for 4:3?

I just thought maybe it can be stretched, rescaled or something like that.

Graf Zahl said:
What do you mean FoV is not a constant value?

It resets every time to default 90 when you're loading/reloading maps.

Graf Zahl said:
This cannot be solved with how Doom levels work.

This is sad, oh well.

Arctangent said

Thanks for elaborate answer! I'll try to experiment with those ports.

Gez said:
About the first issue, there are a number of widescreen-friendly status bars. Here's a recent example. And another. Or you can try completely different HUDs, there's quite a number of them. Plus the built-in full-screen HUD and alternate HUD.

Yeah, I know about custom huds, it's just some WADs have their own, so I can't use them all the time.

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Sergeek said:

I just thought maybe it can be stretched, rescaled or something like that.

Yes that's a brilliant idea, destroying the aspect ratio of all graphic resources.

Sergeek said:

It resets every time to default 90 when you're loading/reloading maps.

Yes. It has been like that since forever. It doesn't appear to be designed as a user option. No idea if it's the reason why, but the FOV in the software renderer isn't exactly optimal for permanent change (it looks a little distorted, honestly).

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Arctangent said:

3DGE I'm not so sure about; I'm pretty sure it has a hardware renderer and might even cull dynamic lights correctly, but it's even less popular than Eternity.

3DGE can cull them accurately, and it has an interpolated hardware renderer. FOV can be adjusted as well, and it has and widescreen support. Compatible with OpenGL 1.x, so it can run on a portable system with an integrated video card, with the average mod. The only thing 3DGE can read from ZDoom are the TEXTURE1/2 scaling extension and TX/HI_START (from other ports as well).

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Sergeek said:

1. Widescreen play - 14:9 ratio puts those ugly bricks on your status bar, black stripes over the splash screen

That's not something that can be avoided, it's an old game with graphics designed for 4;3 monitors and no amount of stretching will change that. Actually, I take that back, it will make said graphics absolutely hideous and stupid looking. Like when old people stretch 4;3 movies to 16;9 TVs.

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3DGE is an interesting port. It has an impressive renderer (the best Specter fuzz emulation in GL) and some remarkable features, like "goobers". Unfortunately, its feature set is rather bare and lopsided, and it suffers from numerous arbitrary limitations and strange design decisions.

Why such a basic feature as the screen size is not configurable? Why is the normal status bar not an option? Why is the player bobbing exaggerated so grotesquely it feels like a horse riding game, not DOOM? Why the fly key is configurable but the exit one is not? Why you can have either permanent mouselook or none at all? What's the point of the mouselook key then? Why "MP3 is a terrible format for games" when it's been the most common lossy audio format for the past 17 years and every advanced port supports it? Why can't 3DGE find the IWADs unless they are in the same dir as the exec? Legacy introduced $DOOMWADDIR$ in 2002, IIRC, and it's hard to think of a more backward port still in development — yet 3DGE doesn't seem to be aware of it.

If the main goal of this port is "be different" then it has succeeded admirably. Not a particularly enticing option if you want to play DOOM, though. If I were looking to just play IWADs in widescreen hi-res with dynamic lights, Doomsday would be an easy choice. As it is, it's hard to take 3DGE seriously.

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Is this an intervention, like with Doom Legacy? :-D

My view:
3DGE out of the box has non-working music because the system midi device doesn't work (on vista and 7), it has zero bobbing so the player just segways around, it has that annoying blue diskette flashing uselessly, unskippable splash screen.


It also has freelook AND autoaim enabled. (And jumping and crouching.) It also has several options that should only be mod-enabled or commandline options IMO, like gravity slider, more blood etc. It makes the options menus a minefield. Freaking weapon kick? Respawn options?

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Never_Again said:

If the main goal of this port is "be different" then it has succeeded admirably. Not a particularly enticing option if you want to play DOOM, though. If I were looking to just play IWADs in widescreen hi-res with dynamic lights, Doomsday would be an easy choice. As it is, it's hard to take 3DGE seriously.


The problems were all inherited from EDGE which indeed seemed to have a mission of doing everything different than Doom originally did.

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Graf Zahl said:

which indeed seemed to have a mission of doing everything different than Doom originally did.


You seem to say that about every port?

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Vermil said:

You seem to say that about every port?



No, I say that about a port whose source bears no resemblance to Doom's original code whatsoever.

EDGE's entire playsim was basically rewritten from scratch and ultimately just tries to approximate and emulate Doom with its own features.

I don't know any other port ever to attempt such a radical rewrite.

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Never_Again said:

Why "MP3 is a terrible format for games" when it's been the most common lossy audio format for the past 17 years and every advanced port supports it.


I can't read chu's mind, but my guess is that both former and current devs, chu & Andrew, wanted to avoid proprietary formats. While it isn't entirely possible to do so, given the choice they usually do exactly that. If timidty gets a hugely better sound pack, don't be suprised if sdl vanishes from 3dge.

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Obviously the problem with MP3 is the patent situation.

But that should cease to be a problem this fall, when the last decoding patent finally expires in the US.

In all other countries this shouldn't be an issue anymore.

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Never_Again said:

3DGE is an interesting port. It has an impressive renderer (the best Specter fuzz emulation in GL) and some remarkable features, like "goobers". Unfortunately, its feature set is rather bare and lopsided, and it suffers from numerous arbitrary limitations and strange design decisions.

Why such a basic feature as the screen size is not configurable? Why is the normal status bar not an option? Why is the player bobbing exaggerated so grotesquely it feels like a horse riding game, not DOOM? Why the fly key is configurable but the exit one is not? Why you can have either permanent mouselook or none at all? What's the point of the mouselook key then? Why "MP3 is a terrible format for games" when it's been the most common lossy audio format for the past 17 years and every advanced port supports it? Why can't 3DGE find the IWADs unless they are in the same dir as the exec? Legacy introduced $DOOMWADDIR$ in 2002, IIRC, and it's hard to think of a more backward port still in development — yet 3DGE doesn't seem to be aware of it.

If the main goal of this port is "be different" then it has succeeded admirably. Not a particularly enticing option if you want to play DOOM, though. If I were looking to just play IWADs in widescreen hi-res with dynamic lights, Doomsday would be an easy choice. As it is, it's hard to take 3DGE seriously.



Screen size is configurable (so is monitor size and widescreen. Go look again). Normal status bar is an option (it's a COAL feature, all you have to do is restore the previous COALHUD). Bobbing can be adjusted in DDF (right now it's disabled as of v2.0 due to interpolation which was a requested feature for many years). Mouselook is configurable (there is another option screen - find it). MP3 was ripped out because of license issues (years ago) and was never restored (why, when OGG is more portable and smaller in size). I can introduce an IWAD finding feature if you are sore about that (or just use the -iwad switch). Disk icon can be turned off with a CVAR (m_diskicon). Splash screen is now skippable in the source code (it was an inheritance from using EDGE 1.32 rather than the most recent release at the time). Most of these issues have been addressed at the Zdoom forum directly.

You guys need to remember that EDGE itself directly came from DOSDoom, where most of these "issues" started. That permanent mouselook key "issue" was back when mouselook was considered an option in the late 90's. Want me to remove that option? Would be easy. ^_^

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Gez said:

Based on this the last MP3 patent should expire on December 30, 2017.
http://www.tunequest.org/a-big-list-of-mp3-patents/20070226/

One patent will expire in September this year, another in 2016, and the last four in 2017.



I said *DECODING* patent. Encoding has no relevance on a player which only contains the decoder, especially if the later encoding patents do not require alteration of the decoder, which I consider likely because otherwise they'd violate the specification.

The same is not true for encoding which can be improved without the encoded result violating the spec. But a decoder based entirely on the 1991 draft can obviously not infringe on a patent filed 6 years later.

And the patent that will expire coming September is the last one old enough to potentially affect a decoder.

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Thanks kindly for taking time to answer my questions, Chu. With developer support like this no wonder that 3DGE is a niche port. Next to you wesleyjohnson all of a sudden seems reasonable and Graf downright charismatic.

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Doomsday handles (1) and (3) more elegantly than GZDoom, in my opinion.
Can't say I've ever had an issue with (2) in GZDoom.

However Doomsday has it's own limitations, such as not being Boom compatible. GZDoom is pretty much the most robust Source Port available.

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Never_Again said:

Thanks kindly for taking time to answer my questions, Chu. With developer support like this no wonder that 3DGE is a niche port. Next to you wesleyjohnson all of a sudden seems reasonable and Graf downright charismatic.



=)
At any rate, try out 3DGE v2.0.0. The interpolation definitely makes it more manageable to play for people who like fast framerates.

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Never_Again said:

Thanks kindly for taking time to answer my questions, Chu. With developer support like this no wonder that 3DGE is a niche port. Next to you wesleyjohnson all of a sudden seems reasonable and Graf downright charismatic.


Looks like he answered your questions pretty plainly?

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Seriously... what an attitude.

I have a few puzzling observations about 3DGE v2.0.0 I'd like to point out myself.

One:
idkfa gives you an SSG in Ultimate Doom.

Two:
When selecting 'quit' from the menu the whole screen goes black except for the quit text.

Three:
When using the classic status bar the entire weapon sprite is shown and vertically squished; It looks awful.

I find these strange, but I could see One not being important.. the others though.. hm.

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ReFracture:

idkfa gives you an SSG in Ultimate Doom.

Bug fixed. It was an unintentional side effect of being able to load DOOM.wad [as a PWAD] with doom2.wad (playing all 5 DOOM episodes in one executable).

When selecting 'quit' from the menu the whole screen goes black except for the quit text.

Fixed in the next point release. That was actually because of a long-standing issue with STYLES.ddf and the [MENU] entry; I recently put a lot of work into it and got everything working correctly. I restored STYLES functionality from a previous version of EDGE (primarily so modders could define a background image/animation), since this was removed in EDGE 1.35.

When using the classic status bar the entire weapon sprite is shown and vertically squished; It looks awful.

I will fix that with a COAL recode right now. The classic statusbar should be drawn directly into the Fullscreen camera coords, not having the coords adjust on top of it.


Never_Again, in case there was any misconception that I'm trying to intentionally act like a bitch to you (you could have made a normal bug report instead of treating me like that, but I still feel my answers were satisfactory):

Why such a basic feature as the screen size is not configurable?

1) "Screen Size" was an incredibly vague way to say that the physical window real-estate was not adjustable. (I was under the impression you were talking about "monitor size" under Video Options). "Screen Size" hasn't been working since...well ever. But, why is it needed for a hardware accelerated port? Technically, issue #3 from ReFracture was the only attempt at emulating a fraction of that, but I don't see how that would effect anyone/anything unless you were playing on a software-rendered port.

2) The bob value is held in Things.DDF (search for OUR_HERO:1). There is a bobbing= command - comment this out. It was in between 1.36 and 1.4 that I started testing interpolation. So, 2.0.0 has bobbing disabled (re-enabled with next point release). I'm thinking 1.36F was distributed with a modified Things.DDF that I was testing, because 1.36E and lower did not have that intense bobbing problem. That was accidental and I quickly rectified it.

3) The rest of them (the not as important ones). I explained mouselook clear enough (you seemed a bit confused about that). MP3 not only had licensing issues but was poorly implemented and, like I said, you can get better quality sound for less space and overhead by using Ogg. No modder has ever complained about the lack of MP3 support when they found out it was replaced with a well-established and GPL-compliant standard. You can create a shortcut to 3DGE with the IWAD location or use a launcher (compatible with EDGE, compared to Legacy/et. all this was never brought to anyone's concern). Disk icon is CVAR controllable (as I have clearly explained at the Zdoom forums VGA ;)). Splashscreen will be an option from here on out.

On top of this, 3DGE is not unstable and runs the original games very well. It has its quirks but is playable and supports BOOM. I think it's a great alternative, but I indeed use other ports when applicable to compare behavior/mods/etc.

More ramble:

Spoiler

The language is indeed completely different compared to DECORATE, but it was also one of the first ports to implement more than one scripting language from scratch (rather than emulating, then absorbing, something like ACS).

Back in its day it was very popular for modding, and new users are continually impressed that there is no steep learning curve: it's easily configurable and modifiable, even compared to ZDoom (but make no mistake, Z/GZdoom are more powerful). EDGE was created primarily for total conversion authors and has a ton of exotic features faithful only to it.

AND, Never_Again, I'm doing my best to support it and help users out. At Zdoom, they give me complete bug reports and remain patient with me while attempting to either fix or hack around them - if I can't do it, they don't hold it against me (go look if you'd like, I feel I support it well). They've really been a great bunch and I feel it's finally buried the hatchet between "Zdoom VS EDGE" that was popular in the early-mid 2000's. It's like what we all wished both modding communities had acted to each other back then. Graf and Enjay in particular have been great help. The 3DGE forums are also helpful.

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Chu said:

It has its quirks but is playable and supports BOOM.

After testing my Boom wad in various ports, I'd say Boom support in 3DGE is incomplete at best. The windows were all screwed up (either because the transparency didn't work, or the fake floor/ceiling effect). More importantly, a door with a generalized action wouldn't open, locking the player in the very first set of corridors.

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Chu:



On top of this, 3DGE is not unstable and runs the original games very well. It has its quirks but is playable and supports BOOM.


The vanilla EDGE sourceforge page is pretty clear that self referencing sectors and boom scrollers (other glboom features are supposed to work) would never be a goal for EDGE. Are you reconcidering that position for 3DGE?

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