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fabian

Par Times for the Master Levels

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Hi there,

does anybody know of a reasonable set of par times for the Master Levels? I know there are no "official" ones, but maybe some kind of "community-accepted"?

Thanks,

Fabian

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Maybe they could be created from best-record compet-n demos that focused only on getting to the exit as quickly as possible, no other goals. Then we use Romero's rules: take the speedrun time, add 30 seconds, then round to the nearest 30 second mark.

If I'm wrong about that, please correct me, but that's the formula off the top of my head.

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According to the Wiki "John Romero generated the par times by completing each level as fast as possible, rounding off the resulting time and adding 30 seconds."
http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Par_time

Well, I guess this means rounding off to the nearest 30 (or 15?) seconds.

The problem is, there aren't any records for the Master Levels in Compet-N and DoomedSDA does not have UV-speed runs of them all, e.g. only UV-max for CATWALK.WAD.

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Don't recall ever seeing an 'official' list of Par times for the Master Levels. Maybe it's up to Doomworld to establish one.

Here's a baseline set of UV-Max runs to start with.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD961A52F665000DB

These should be easy for a pro player to beat, as they're keyboard-only, include max Secrets and Items, and were played with the added goal of leaving with max health and armor.

But, perhaps it's a possible jumping-off point for establishing a Doomworld-approved times list, or at least get a conversation started about how to determine one.

Tally screen end times for these runs are:

Attack: 4:12
Black Tower: 21:19
Bloodsea: 7:06
Canyon: 6:00
Catwalk: 5:45
Combine: 2:39
Fistula: 3:20
Garrison: 4:21
Geryon: 5:57
Manor: 7:24
Mephisto: 8:55
Minos: 6:54
Nessus: 2:30
Paradox: 6:33
Subspace: 2:29
Subterra: 4:59
TEETH (PC map 31): 9:34
Ttrap: 14:42
Vesperas: 7:29
Virgil: 3:58
TEETH/Bad Dream (PC map 32): 1:07

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Ledmeister said:

But, perhaps it's a possible jumping-off point for establishing a Doomworld-approved times list, or at least get a conversation started about how to determine one.

If we go for a TWID approach, then: run to the exit in UV, don't use any trick (no wallrunning, no gliding, no death sliding, not activating switches "through" walls, not grabbing items supposedly out of reach, etc., and not even strafe-running) that they did not know about at the time.

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Gez said:

If we go for a TWID approach, then: run to the exit in UV, don't use any trick

TWID-style ["The Way Id Did"] makes sense. To refresh everyone's memory (mine included): In addition to avoiding exploits, each level is from a pistol start at UV, and Kills, Items and Secrets are irrelevant, right?

Next, how to pick the level runs/runner(s) to use. I'd suggest someone about as familiar with the ML maps as Romero was with the Doom / Doom II mapsets back in the day.

Maybe this could be opened to the Community at large (or maybe just Compet-n and/or DSDA members?) for a limited time, and then average the resulting run times for each level...?

Or maybe take a vote for one or more specific runners to do the 'official' DW runs.
I'd volunteer myself, but my demo-making PC is out of commission and will be for while yet.

Never_Again? (Or you, Gez? :) Who else?

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LogicDeLuxe said:

Shouldn't the map authors do the run?

Interesting idea. Are any available and willing?
In that case I might suggest that only one author do the full set, if we're trying to keep it TWID, as John Romero did it for the full games*, including maps he didn't author.
If two or more authors want to do full-set runs, the times for each level could be averaged.

* Hm, I wonder if we could entice/bribe Romero to the ML map runs himself. :D

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fabian said:

According to the Wiki "John Romero generated the par times by completing each level as fast as possible, rounding off the resulting time and adding 30 seconds."
http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Par_time

Well, I guess this means rounding off to the nearest 30 (or 15?) seconds.

Curious as to what interval he rounded to, given Entryway has a par of 30 seconds after the 30 second addition.

Maybe Romero is so good at Doom that he beat it in 0 seconds, regardless of how physically impossible that is.

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LogicDeLuxe said:

Shouldn't the map authors do the run?

Good luck tracking all of them down nowadays.

Maybe get John Romero to play through them all and use his times, that could be pseudo-official ;)

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I think Romero would have been the only legit source for par times. That, if you discount the fact that they were meant for IWADs only, IIRC vanilla disables them automatically with "-file".

Anyway, that particular train left 20 years ago, and anything devised today would be arbitrary, whether by Romero, myself or a random Joe Schmoe from the street.

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Never_Again said:

Anyway, that particular train left 20 years ago, and anything devised today would be arbitrary, whether by Romero, myself or a random Joe Schmoe from the street.

Of course. :) I was just wondering if there's any way to de-arbitrary it a little. I think a step in that direction, barring access to Romero and a time machine, would be to find a runner who has proven expertise at the game, can give attention to detail and applicable rules, and who knows the maps well. (You've demonstrated those qualities in the past, so I'd value your run times over those of a million Joe Shmoes.)
I'm hopeful the bulk of the Doom community would agree with that philosophy, at least in principle.

I'll PM the demo-forum mods and maybe a couple other guys to see if they have opinions or thoughts on a PT project and/or want to volunteer to establish run times themselves. I'll do a set of runs eventually if no one else volunteers.

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A demopack project is always encouraged, it's fun for more people! I agree with Gez, the twid rules are a solid choice. They emulate what Romero did reasonably without being masochistically restrictive. I wonder if speedrunners probably are the best choice to set par times, however. Simply said, they might drive them too low. Or maybe they wouldn't go "as fast as possible", but "just sort of fast"? Heh. Anyways, I'm sure there will be volunteers if a thread is made in the DSD subforum. I'd probably go with players claiming maps to run on, community project mapping-style, instead of free-for-all as that could trigger unwanted competition (heh) and cutthroat result times (heh). That could also motivate non-speedrunners to claim a few slots. If a run is simply too slow, it can always be freed for another claimant.

Btw, emulating "pure" controls without sr40 abuse is also a good idea, but sr40 tics shouldn't be a disqualifying criterion. Even Romero's Doom2 demos have a few sr40 tics, although they're so scarce and random that he was probably getting them unknowingly. I'd just kick out anything that moves forward sideways. :)

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Thanks for the input, dew, much appreciated; and sorry to all for my delays in responses here.

dew said:

I'm sure there will be volunteers if a thread is made in the DSD subforum.

Okay, I'll post something there this week. Thanks. :)

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Ledmeister said:

Thanks for the input, dew, much appreciated; and sorry to all for my delays in responses here.
Okay, I'll post something there this week. Thanks. :)

So?

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