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Xaero_Four

Gaming/Doom community. Are we spoiled?

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I noticed quite a few people (Mainly Doomers) voice how this doesn't stack up to the originals. And I'm trying to figure out why some folks think that. Personally I believe this game has everything we need plus more.

At its core Doom is made up of lots of ugly demons, lots of guns, and lots of gore. Amongst other things. I don't think anyone can argue that this game is lacking in any of those department, say for a few minor details which honestly can be chalked down as just a work still in progress. Example is lack of blood decals from gibs. Not that big a deal. Maybe monster design isn't quite what you expect. That's ok, there's still plenty we haven't seen.

Point being, we're essentially getting exactly what we want out of a Doom game with some extra bonuses. So it boggles my mind when some people go so far as to say that this game is a complete let down. Why? Because you didn't get your color variety that would make a raver blush? Or a protagonist that runs 100+mph? Or the demo didn't show 50 dozen baddies trying to rape your Doomed corpse? These are the main complaints I hear, and honestly does anyone expect to see some of these things, especially in just a single area of the game?

Thing is I'm willing to bet that if people got exactly what they wanted, they'd complain about lack of innovation or something else. Some can't even articulate what exactly the game lacks, like WTF do you want out of it then? In detail.

I acknowledge that the game could use some touch ups but bottom line, people in the community and gaming in general are spoiled. They can get exactly what they ask for and still piss and moan. You all agree with this? And for those on the other side of the spectrum, what exactly do you want out of this game?

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Like I said in another thread, there are some people in the community that won't be happy unless the game is EXACTLY like the original. Some of complaints are ridiculous. "OMG, a five second cut scene every time the player found a new gun. Oh the humanity!"

Of course, some of the complaints are valid. I am particularly worried about the health and ammo icons that fall out of the corpses of your enemies after you kill them. Part of the incentive to look for secrets was to find more health and ammo. The whole pinyata mechanic of the health and ammo dropping out of the monsters removes that incentive.

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I pin the fault of health/ammo drops directly to console queers. They fuck up everything, and they spread their ideals and laziness to the PC world, thus making PC games suffer, ceasing to be a game.

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It's not possible to recapture the spirit of old school Doom, especially when we all have different ideas about what that is exactly. But from what I've seen, I think Doom 4 is a much better attempt than Doom 3. I'm happy with what I'm seeing.

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Flesh420 said:

I pin the fault of health/ammo drops directly to console queers. They fuck up everything, and they spread their ideals and laziness to the PC world, thus making PC games suffer, ceasing to be a game.


It has little to do with console gamers in my opinion... They don't make the games.. It's more to do with the developers themselves being lazy..

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DoomUK said:

It's not possible to recapture the spirit of old school Doom, especially when we all have different ideas about what that is exactly. But from what I've seen, I think Doom 4 is a much better attempt than Doom 3. I'm happy with what I'm seeing.


I think it is possible to recapture the "spirit" and "feel" of the old Doom and I think that the latest iteration does that well. What I feel that many of the complainers want is the mechanics and the artistic style to be exactly the same as the old Doom which is not going to happen.

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I think the Doom community is spoiled. We have the greatest, most prolific, longest-running community of level designers, demo recorders, doomgod multiplayers, and modders. We have all these things and we want more, because we want ever game to mesmerize us the way Doom did.

I suspect Doom 4 is going to be a hell of a lot better than Doom 3. 3 wasn't a bad game but it definitely got stale before you made it to the final boss. Of course the classic games are going to remain supreme, but I think Doom 4 could bring a lot of new talent and fresh interest to our cult-- I mean community. Doom 4 is going to get a few things wrong or right in ways we had never considered before, but it is going to be an unequivocally positive development.

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Following the fundamentals of Doom's design (in particular Doom 2's) should still allow for lots of unique qualities when creating a new game for the title because there's very, very little to what makes Doom work. It's one of the reasons the community has lasted as long as it has, spawning tens of hundreds of trends and cliques all taking preference with projects like Eternal Doom or Sunder or Favillseco or 100lines. Unless you're suffering from a severe delusion on the level of a man who thinks he's a poached egg, then you probably won't find yourself at odds with someone else's idea of what the game is in such a way that those fundamentals would come into question. At most, they'd be ignored. It's a question of emphasis; of the decade-later sequels placing their understanding of the game's identity on misconceptions instead of getting the balance right or not including some of the necessary qualities in the first place.

What is Doom? Doom isn't just guns and demons. Shock horror; guns, demons and gore alone are not what makes the community spin. Running fast isn't what makes Doom different from most other FPSs. Movement as defence/offence? Now you're getting closer to the mark. Unique monster designs that change the way you use movement and space to avoid damage, challenging spatial awareness; exploration and resource management; area denial from damaging sectors and snipers; dynamic, moving parts to playing areas... that's Doom, mostly! And the guns and the demons and the adrenaline rush. You'll find it in Eternal Doom, and you'll find it in WOOO 2, How 2 wooo (heh). By the looks of things so far, you might not find it in Doom 4. The actual flow of combat seems neat enough save for when the fatalities show up, though, and I might not even take issue with that in the long run!

We are spoiled as well, by the way, but probably more regarding matters internal to the community, I think. Once you've seen a well-produced mapset discarded on that grounds that it's "too good," you know you're in deep.

EDIT: Oh yeah, all this isn't to say that I won't enjoy the game, either. As I mentioned in this post, I'll probably view it much more favourably standalone.

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Xaero_Four said:

Thing is I'm willing to bet that if people got exactly what they wanted...


The problem is that Doomworlders don't know what they want, as I determined eons ago in a poll I made. Cynical as it sounds, if I was Bethesda/Zenimax/whoever has the rights to Doom right now, the opinion of Doomworlders would be the very last one I'd take into consideration, exactly because most people here are purists that are perfectly happy with existing source ports of the original game, so there'd be no point in trying to beat those (free) source ports at their own game. The only way to appeal to most people here is to release new level sets like "No Rest For The Living" once in a while.

Then again....this might just be a case where the community got EXACTLY what they wanted:

Maes said:

I'm surprised that the polls, so far, seem to point clearly in the direction of a complete remake that breaks away with vanilla, IWADs etc. and embraces a modern engine with HD 3D graphics, perhaps a "Doom 3 the way it should be". OK, maybe not with NUTS.WAD-type levels, but certainly SOME of the original gameplay can be presented through a modern engine, and it would be interesting to see the results. Bonus points if it DOESN'T feel like a prettied-up GZDoom or Doom Ascension.


Yup, pure WYWFIWYG.

Well, let's all be more careful about what we wish for next time, and hope that Doom 5 is more like what we mean ;-)

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I'm so spoiled I'm probably going to torrent Doom 4 when it comes out, but that's a different argument...

I'm also probably going to beat it in 2 hours, but that's only cause it's gonna be easy as fuuuuuuuuuck dude.

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Anything that comes out will be a disappointment. That's why they need to name it Mars Marine. Even Mario knows to go back to the past.

I liked it, but no its not Doom 1 or 2. It shouldn't be. We own them already and Brutal Doom is the perfect upgrade after Skulltag.

If you want $60 for a game it needs to be current. Retro style games just don't sell as well as AAA games. Youtubers that cover retro or retro style indie games don't have as many subscribers.

Everyone talks about how awesome Shovelknight is, but well its sold 300,000 copies in 6 months or so rather than 1 million day 1. I can't believe that if GTA 6 was suddenly like GTA 2 that it would sell more than 100,000 copies. It would become a joke.

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I feel like I'm one of the few people who has been unabashedly giddy and positive about the new Doom. I really want to play it. The few things I have complaints about are minor. I like the new changes for the most part.

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geo said:

Anything that comes out will be a disappointment. That's why they need to name it Mars Marine. Even Mario knows to go back to the past.

I liked it, but no its not Doom 1 or 2. It shouldn't be. We own them already and Brutal Doom is the perfect upgrade after Skulltag.

If you want $60 for a game it needs to be current. Retro style games just don't sell as well as AAA games. Youtubers that cover retro or retro style indie games don't have as many subscribers.

Everyone talks about how awesome Shovelknight is, but well its sold 300,000 copies in 6 months or so rather than 1 million day 1. I can't believe that if GTA 6 was suddenly like GTA 2 that it would sell more than 100,000 copies. It would become a joke.


The new Shadow Warrior trailer has only 11000 views...so you're not wrong. I guess people are pissed because they secretly wanted Doom to be the harbinger of the return to classic shooter. The shooter that defiantly proves that old is better.

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GoatLord said:

I feel like I'm one of the few people who has been unabashedly giddy and positive about the new Doom. I really want to play it. The few things I have complaints about are minor. I like the new changes for the most part.

I'm also really looking forward to it. And sure, I could look at it with a microscope and pick out things which aren't exactly what I'd like them to be, but the whole package seems pretty fucking sweet.

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DooM_RO said:

The new Shadow Warrior trailer has only 11000 views...so you're not wrong. I guess people are pissed because they secretly wanted Doom to be the harbinger of the return to classic shooter. The shooter that defiantly proves that old is better.


The official developer has 445,000 views. The problem with trailers is everyone reposts them.

There's a problem catering to an older audience like those that remember 20 year old things... our memories and experiences are always better than anything new. That's why movies and games shouldn't be catering to the people that remember things, they should be presenting products for the new generation.

People are complaining about the new Jem movie, the new Transformers... they're not movies for adult men, they're movies for little girls and kids in general. While I can't say Doom is ever for kids, its for this generation's teenagers.

Even when Doom 4 comes out we'll all still be here supporting Doom 1 & 2 and people 20 years younger than us will be supporting Doom 4 in 20 years.

I still support Doom 4 based on what I saw, but nope its not Doom 1 or 2.

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I'm disappointed at how much negative response I'm seeing from the community. Pretty shitty attitude on the part of some.

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geo said:

The official developer has 445,000 views. The problem with trailers is everyone reposts them.

There's a problem catering to an older audience like those that remember 20 year old things... our memories and experiences are always better than anything new. That's why movies and games shouldn't be catering to the people that remember things, they should be presenting products for the new generation.

People are complaining about the new Jem movie, the new Transformers... they're not movies for adult men, they're movies for little girls and kids in general. While I can't say Doom is ever for kids, its for this generation's teenagers.

Even when Doom 4 comes out we'll all still be here supporting Doom 1 & 2 and people 20 years younger than us will be supporting Doom 4 in 20 years.

I still support Doom 4 based on what I saw, but nope its not Doom 1 or 2.


Yes, yes. I completely agree.

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geo said:

There's a problem catering to an older audience like those that remember 20 year old things... our memories and experiences are always better than anything new.


This made me grimace. I'm 30 and I find that my new experiences add to the spice of life all the time. I think it's incredibly nihilistic and depressing to talk of nothing topping old memories. It's just...sad.

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GoatLord said:

This made me grimace. I'm 30 and I find that my new experiences add to the spice of life all the time. I think it's incredibly nihilistic and depressing to talk of nothing topping old memories. It's just...sad.


It's not about that. It's that the way we remember things are often different from what they actually were. Just look at the people outside our forums who haven't played Doom in years and what they want "blood gore and demons". The tricky thing is that this approach is not NECESSARILY wrong. No interpretation of Doom is completely true or false. For example some people want Brutal Doom executions, others think they slow down the game. BOTH are right. Id has the hard task of making a game that will not make anyone feel alienated. Also, since this is what the "consensus" is among older gamers, it is automatically assumed as true. Even by people who have never played Doom. So if these older gamers who misremember the game feel alienated, it's going to affect younger people who have never played Doom too.

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I think you're assuming id is bowing down to pressure from younger gamers who prefer consoles and that seems skewed.

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I for one think its much closer to the original game then Doom 3. Really looking forward to it.

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I really want this game right now. I never been impressed by Doom more than now, coz my frist time was in 94 I was a little kid who don't give a damn who the hell is id Software. Doom 3 was biggest flop for me...Whatever. New Doom is good start for franchise. So sad about J.C. retirement, but still BIG hope for this game.

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If I were to venture a guess, I would say that a lot of the highly critical comments are simply very passionate fans who derive pleasure and excitement from analyzing everything they see and then posting their reactions, which can often sound more negative than they are.

We like to nitpick, we like to say "I like my idea of this thing better than what we're getting", because we enjoy sharing our ideas and hoping that it might inspire something in others.

At least that's what I'm reading from it.

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TheCupboard said:

I think the Doom community is spoiled. We have the greatest, most prolific, longest-running community of level designers, demo recorders, doomgod multiplayers, and modders. We have all these things and we want more, because we want ever game to mesmerize us the way Doom did.

This. I think we are spoiled (speaking for myself, I am) exactly because of this. And keep in mind that this community mostly consists of amateurs who work in their free time. I'd be glad if well-paid game developing professionals could overcome this community's qualities in more respects than just working with hi-tech graphics and models. If I feel that they don't (for example if playability is lacking something I enjoy in Doom wads), I'm disappointed.

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In general it seems like gamers like to complain a lot online. Last night I was amazed at some of the announcements Sony was throwing out during their press conference (E3). Several long-awaited titles got a showing. It was phenomenal what they were delivering. I did see a lot of positive fan reaction afterwards, but I was still surprised to see outright, 100% "you suck" type negativity just as well. I have to wonder how the game creators and company heads see that kind of response sometimes. I hope they look at the good more than the bad.

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That level design looks like ass and the demons look incredibly generic with no character. The tone is also not a lone survivor kind of tone, more like a testosterone fueled gorefest.

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DooM_RO said:

It's not about that. It's that the way we remember things are often different from what they actually were.


Tell me about it. There are people who think that the original Doom was nothing but demonic hordes and heavy metal. Doom wasn't all that. There were many smaller encounters where you were fighting less than 10 demons at once. There was also levels that had slow, suspenseful music as well. There were also cramped corridors as well as wide open areas. People want to think that Doom was just one thing, so when they see something like the new Doom, they bitch and whine and moan when it isn't exactly how they remembered the original game.

I think Id is doing a good job trying to go back to Doom's roots. They're not perfect, but I think this latest iteration is closer to the original than Doom 3 was in many respects. Hats off to them.

I just hope they can improve the final product before it is released in 2016. Wolf: TNO got some improvements before it was released so there is always hope.

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doom_is_great said:

Tell me about it. There are people who think that the original Doom was nothing but demonic hordes and heavy metal. Doom wasn't all that. There were many smaller encounters where you were fighting less than 10 demons at once. There was also levels that had slow, suspenseful music as well. There were also cramped corridors as well as wide open areas. People want to think that Doom was just one thing, so when they see something like the new Doom, they bitch and whine and moan when it isn't exactly how they remembered the original game.

I think Id is doing a good job trying to go back to Doom's roots. They're not perfect, but I think this latest iteration is closer to the original than Doom 3 was in many respects. Hats off to them.

I just hope they can improve the final product before it is released in 2016. Wolf: TNO got some improvements before it was released so there is always hope.


The biggest thing they should change is make the shoguns better. The weapons in TNO and Old Blood were absolutely stellar and Id has to top that. The spread on the shotgun should be much narrower and the sounds should be meatier.

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