So what you think about the items that are given away from the enemies's death?

[MrHofmann]

TheGamePhilosophe said:

The health drop system is really just regenerating health by another name.

As is collecting health packs just regenerating health by another name.

TheGamePhilosophe said:

It's just another way to make the game a more casual experience.

You don't know that. Did you play the game, or any other FPS that has this type of health recovery mechanism? I don't think so. The type of health recovery system is not important as long as it's balanced well, what is important is that health drops encourage the player to keep fighting instead of retreating to either regenerate health or to find health packs placed somewhere back in the level. I would say that retreating and searching for health packs is more similar to health regeneration than health drops are.

[Jaxxoon R]

Jumping is just vertical invincibility. It's just another way to make the game a more casual experience.

[Kaskaum]

Hofmann said:

As is collecting health packs just regenerating health by another name.

You don't know that. Did you play the game, or any other FPS that has this type of health recovery mechanism? I don't think so. The type of health recovery system is not important as long as it's balanced well, what is important is that health drops encourage the player to keep fighting instead of retreating to either regenerate health or to find health packs placed somewhere back in the level. I would say that retreating and searching for health packs is more similar to health regeneration than health drops are.

In my view monster dropping health is closer to health regen, but at least you need to fight and defeat an enemy instead of hiding and wait it to regen.

Both mechanics, as I said in another post, are ways to make moments in which monsters apear non-stop viable.

Doom and Quake both have a constant number of enemies, thus a constant number of health. But in modern FPS-TPS there are several moments with enemies coming nonstop until you solve a puzzle or trigger some event.

So if you place a limited amount of health these kind of situations could be impossible for a console player to beat at harder difficulty skills.

[id.dav]

Hofmann said:

As is collecting health packs just regenerating health by another name.

NO IT ISN'T! Because health pack are limited and once you used all of them you are screwed if you low on health. Regeneration means you never run out of health.

[MrHofmann]

.......................

[Koko Ricky]

Health has gone from being a dropout from enemies instead of being placed in the environment. Big deal. You get more reward for the risk you take killing them, so there's your strategic element if any of you think it's missing.

[MrHofmann]

id.dav said:

NO IT ISN'T! Because health pack are limited and once you used all of them you are screwed if you low on health. Regeneration means you never run out of health.

No, regeneration means you heal yourself, but not necessarily fully. So:

Picking up health packs ==> You heal yourself(not necessarily fully) ==> You regenerate.

Which means picking up health packs is a form of regeneration, but not the same type as health regeneration from modern shooters.

GoatLord said:

Health has gone from being a dropout from enemies instead of being placed in the environment. Big deal. You get more reward for the risk you take killing them, so there's your strategic element if any of you think it's missing.

People see health regeneration from modern shooters and health drops the same because both mechanics have "infinite" supply of health, but fail to realize that it's not about how much health supply you have available but how fast you take damage compared to how fast you heal. It's all about balancing those two things out. In modern shooters there is no point in balancing damage taken and health regeneration speed because you can hide and regenerate as long as you want/need. In old Doom it's almost the same thing, you can run away and eventually escape the encounter and the speed of regeneration compared to speed of damage received is not important because no one is damaging you and you have all the time to find and pickup health packs. In new Doom on the other heand there is no hiding, and even if there was it would be pointless because you have to make a kill to get health, so balancing damage taken and health regeneration is essential in new Doom. I would say that if the damage taken and health regenerated i.e. AI difficulty and health drops mechanic are very well balanced, new Doom could easily be more difficult than the old one.

Health drops mechanic doesn't mean easy gameplay, nor does it mean bad level design.

[AirRaid]

Caffeine Freak said:

Judging by the difficulty level EVERY hands-on article has talked about so far, coupled with the intensity of combat and how quickly you can die, it doesn't sound like they're aiming for a 'casual experience'.

And no, it isn't 'really just regenerating health by another name'---the regenerating health mechanic encourages players to find cover, cower behind a box, run away from enemies, etc. until they get all healed up again. This FORCES you to do the opposite and engage the enemy, even when (hell, ESPECIALLY when) you're a single health point from death. Waiting around or hiding in this scenario gets you jack-shit and then you die anyway when the enemies catch up to you. 'Regenerating health by another name' is the last thing it is.

At least think through your criticisms before you start bitching.

Gonna quote this because it's on the bottom of the last page and some people might not see it. You hit the nail on the head, here.

Jeffo2448 said:

I don't like it

Deatheye said:

I don't like it, I really don't like it.

I don't wanna come across like a dick, but, you are perfectly entitled to not play the game.

[Flesh420]

Hofmann said:

As is collecting health packs just regenerating health by another name.

You don't know that. Did you play the game, or any other FPS that has this type of health recovery mechanism? I don't think so. The type of health recovery system is not important as long as it's balanced well, what is important is that health drops encourage the player to keep fighting instead of retreating to either regenerate health or to find health packs placed somewhere back in the level. I would say that retreating and searching for health packs is more similar to health regeneration than health drops are.

Wait, what?

How is retreating and searching for health more similar to regeneration than health drops? Instead of health regenerating on the HP Bar, it's basically regenerating because you pressed a few more buttons. It's a regeneration turd that's wrapped in a shiny aluminum foil.

Having to backtrack (for health and/or ammo) always made me, at least, feel like I was outnumbered, outgunned, and fighting for survival. Backtracking was always a rewarding experience when you finally find enough supplies to take down your threat.

I'm excited for DOOM, and I'm even reserving judgment on the "Arenas" and "Skate-parks" until I play it, but the drops is a turn off.

[TheGamePhilosophe]

Flesh420 said:

Wait, what?

How is retreating and searching for health more similar to regeneration than health drops? Instead of health regenerating on the HP Bar, it's basically regenerating because you pressed a few more buttons. It's a regeneration turd that's wrapped in a shiny aluminum foil.

Having to backtrack (for health and/or ammo) always made me, at least, feel like I was outnumbered, outgunned, and fighting for survival. Backtracking was always a rewarding experience when you finally find enough supplies to take down your threat.

Exactly. And there is an element of strategy and planning that goes with the old system. You have to decide when to take health/ammo or not to (I doubt the enemy drops in Doom 4 will be persistent). You also have to develop more conscious awareness of where things are in the level.

People are pointing out the obvious differences (yes, you have to kill enemies instead of taking cover), but at the end of the day, the new drop system is automating the process of health and ammo recovery. You kill the enemies (basically, play the game), and the system takes care of replenishing all your resources for you without thinking, flinging them at you, practically.

And yes, compared to the original that is health regeneration in another guise because recovery is made into a passive mechanic. The fact that you shoot enemies doesn't change this. That's something you have to do anyway to progress in the game. They've taken what was a non-trivial, meaningful part of gameplay and made it into a trivial, automated system that the player can mostly just forget about. That is also the essence of casualification.

[MrHofmann]

Flesh420 said:

How is retreating and searching for health more similar to regeneration than health drops? Instead of health regenerating on the HP Bar, it's basically regenerating because you pressed a few more buttons. It's a regeneration turd that's wrapped in a shiny aluminum foil.

Picking up health packs and health regeneration in modern shooters both require and encourage you to retreat and hide to replenish your health, while health drops on the other hand do not, in fact they require quite the opposite, they encourage the player to keep fighting to restore his health by killing more.

Why do you think health drops are the same as regenerating health but with pressing a few more buttons? Isn't retreating and finding health packs the same as retreating and regenerating health but with pressing a few more buttons too? I explained in my previous post why people see regenerating health in modern shooters and health drops as the same thing. Read it and think about it.

Flesh420 said:

Having to backtrack (for health and/or ammo) always made me, at least, feel like I was outnumbered, outgunned, and fighting for survival. Backtracking was always a rewarding experience when you finally find enough supplies to take down your threat.

id is not going for that approach this time. This time around will be more like Always Outnumbered, Never Outgunned and Fight Like Hell.

Flesh420 said:

I'm excited for DOOM, and I'm even reserving judgment on the "Arenas" and "Skate-parks" until I play it, but the drops is a turn off.

You won't be turned off by item drops when you start playing, you will actually like it very much, it will give you that arcadey feel. Health and ammo drops are a very good thing and it's a better choice than health and ammo pickups. Now, I know that this is not a very popular opinion but I thought about it very much and I finally understand why they are using this mechanic. Item drops go very well with dynamic difficulty, which is the Ultra-Violence difficulty setting according to the leaks, it's at least as hard as Hurt Me Plenty with the option of getting harder the more you get better at the game, that's how I see it, but maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, if health and ammo supply for a level was constant/static, the case of health and ammo pickups mechanic, then it would be harder for the dynamic difficulty system to work because it couldn't regulate the amount of health that the level gives you, and it would be much easier to master a level. On the other hand, if health and ammo supply for a level was dynamic i.e. not constant, which is the case of item drops, then it would be much harder to master a level because the more you get better at it the less items enemies drop. Dynamic difficulty is a very good thing if it's implemented properly, it can give you lots of replayability because it will feel challenging every time you play the game. I don't know if I explained it well, but I did my best.

[Voros]

I like this pinata effect in a way. I mean they don't give you full everything for every kill (and every time you've replenished, you'll see your back to low everything because of another problem behind you).
I think that it was removed or optional to give that arcade feeling.

Why would id make the pinata effect the MAIN thing? They didn't. Its only an appetizer. The exploration will lead you to the main course.

PS- Backtracking is a lot more fun to go through then to just sit in a corner and watch your health come back.

[Jaxxoon R]

For someone that hates this casual baby game so much, TheGamePhilosophe seems to talk about it a lot. In fact, they've seem to mostly only post here in Doom 4 general, and actually have talked about that stupid Terror Beast Terror Fight a lot more than he's ever talked about Classic Doom itself. My guess is they don't actually understand anything about Classic Doom and are keeping their mouth shut to avoid being called out by people that do. So far they just seem to me like some crusading, pretentious, self-described... well, "game philosopher" that has selected this game to push their agenda of casualfication and consolitis being a plague that is ruinin muh games and stretching shit in the dumbest ways through the most absurd hoops in order to make it into casual COD because they need that to justify their irrational hatred of anything new.

Health drops being regenerating health, jesus christ. Good to know Classic Doom had regenerating ammo! Thanks for revealing to me what a casual console-driven series this has always been!

[Chubzdoomer]

Jaxxoon R said:

Health drops being regenerating health, jesus christ. Good to know Classic Doom had regenerating ammo! Thanks for revealing to me what a casual console-driven series this has always been!

Thing is, very few types of enemies dropped ammo in the original DOOM. And when they did, it was a small amount of one specific type (clip or shell).

I do worry that since enemies are pinatas, searching for ammo and health will be far less prevalent, and as a result the levels will be designed in a more straight-forward fashion with that in mind. That's been one of my concerns since the pinata effect was first seen in the E3 footage.

[AirRaid]

chubz said:

Thing is, very few types of enemies dropped ammo in the original DOOM. And when they did, it was a small amount of one specific type (clip or shell).

I do worry that since enemies are pinatas, searching for ammo and health will be far less prevalent, and as a result the levels will be designed in a more straight-forward fashion with that in mind. That's been one of my concerns since the pinata effect was first seen in the E3 footage.

But the "search for supplies" has just moved from health/ammo/secrets to player upgrades/weapon mods/secrets. It's still there you're just not looking for exactly the same things as you were in Doom 1.

[Chubzdoomer]

AirRaid said:

But the "search for supplies" has just moved from health/ammo/secrets to player upgrades/weapon mods/secrets. It's still there you're just not looking for exactly the same things as you were in Doom 1.

Yeah, that's true. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out!

[asura]

Long time doom fan registered today almost entirely to weigh in on this issue.

I do not like the enemy pinatas or glow (for the glory kills or whatever they call them). Those two things are currently my biggest point of discomfort regarding doom 2016. It is immersion breaking for me (I can live with the system if it didn't shoot glowing crap out of the enemies and just gave you a health boost for murdering a thing instead) so its just kindof off-putting and I would at least like some kind of option to turn the glowiness of it off. Like that last facebook trailer they put out, it appeared that those things were turned off and to me it looked much more "right" (hopefully that isn't only for the trailer).

[LkMax]

It's already confirmed you can disable the monster glow... wasn't it?

[asura]

LkMax said:

It's already confirmed you can disable the monster glow... wasn't it?

I haven't seen anything on it personally but thats great news for me if so!

[tuo]

I am quite torn about this subject.

When seeing it in any kind of Doom 2016 gameplay, I absolutely hate it, the same with glowing enemies for glory kills.

When reading the comments here, and thinking about out without the visual effects, I come to a different conclusion.

What I really don't like is the visual effect...as crazy as it sound (in a game where I play some kind of lonely super duper marine on a moon of mars battling demons...), it seems to "comic-like" for my taste. Similar with the indicator for glory kills.

Simply regarding the effect on gameplay mechanics, I can't form an opinion until I see how it all integrates into the overall gameplay. Will it be a mechanic that is absolutely necessary on higher difficulties because there aint enough health/ammo, or is it integrated to increase a maybe super fast flowing gameplay (because you can regain health by killing quickly, similar to a game I referenced much too often now)).

If it would drop a single a backpack for example instead of multi-pinata stuff, without effects, glowing etc., and you gain X amount of health, Y amount of ammo, and this fits into the gameplay and flow of the game, I am okay with it.

I think what puts most people of is the presentation, which - at least to me - looks like it kills immersion.

[Jaxxoon R]

tuo said:

If it would drop a single a backpack

And how would a backpack coming out of a monster make any more sense? Also, wouldn't a backpack be much harder to see and actually collect without any form of highlighting?

This sounds very similar to one of the traps that lead to the rise of no-fun-allowed-2serious-COD-clones overtaking the market initially, games not wanting to be games and sacrificing good mechanics or presentation or fun for the sake of being more "realistic" or "less gamey." Like the decline of bosses in favor of just large hoards of enemies because, despite the satisfaction and impact of bosses in general, they weren't grounded enough.

[ChickenOrBeef]

I personally like the glowing items and enemies, since it gives the game a unique, striking aesthetic.

Similar to the classic games, the items in the game world are going to be very easy to see in order to keep the player moving. When entering an arena space you'll be able to see that glowing blue soul sphere on the high platform or that glowing green armor in that tunnel to the left, and you'll work your strategy accordingly.

Also keep in mind that the player is technically looking through a helmet visor designed to highlight points of interest. So the glows are grounded in the game world actually.

[Super Mighty G]

tuo said:

it seems to "comic-like" for my taste.

We seem to have forgotten that this is Doom we're talking about. You know, the game that has karate chopping skeletons and giant colorful floating head monsters. You know if you listen to John Romero on Devs Play Doom you frequently hear him say how funny he thought the stuff in Doom was.

[Caffeine Freak]

TheGamePhilosophe said:

And yes, compared to the original that is health regeneration in another guise because recovery is made into a passive mechanic. The fact that you shoot enemies doesn't change this. That's something you have to do anyway to progress in the game. They've taken what was a non-trivial, meaningful part of gameplay and made it into a trivial, automated system that the player can mostly just forget about. That is also the essence of casualification.

This has already been pointed out, but I'll point it out anyway: the old Doom games gave you health 'just for playing the game' in the same sense, because all you had to do was walk through the level to encounter health packs. The difference is that now, the enemies are holding the health packs. You're essentially saying that forcing the player to directly encounter harm (something he had to do anyway) in order to heal himself is making the game more casual, but exploring the level (something you also have to do anyway) and encountering health just laying in your path somehow wasn't.

Also, you're talking about it as though every enemy drops health, when that has never been the case in any of the videos we've seen.

Being aware of the situation and layout of the levels and where health was located in the old games was also a benefit, but 1) id has stated on multiple occasions that there is optional exploration involved here, so that isn't going away, and 2) there is CLEARLY more of an emphasis in this Doom on being aggressive and not retreating. In the previous games, you ran away when you were hurting in a fight and tried to find a way to heal up; here, you don't have that option, and the fact that glory-killing an enemy yields the most health also introduces a strategic element that didn't exist in the previous games, especially in the midst of a heavy firefight. Do you risk the time it takes to stop and glory-kill a guy, or do you keep moving and see if you can wait until the crowd is thinned out a bit more before you heal yourself?

[Deatheye]

U.O.D. said:

We seem to have forgotten that this is Doom we're talking about. You know, the game that has karate chopping skeletons and giant colorful floating head monsters. You know if you listen to John Romero on Devs Play Doom you frequently hear him say how funny he thought the stuff in Doom was.

but what about doom 3?

the new demons look a little bit too cartoonish imo - even the old demons from doom 2 look darker and more evil than the new one

[TheGamePhilosophe]

Caffeine Freak said:

Do you risk the time it takes to stop and glory-kill a guy, or do you keep moving and see if you can wait until the crowd is thinned out a bit more before you heal yourself?

There's no risk, as you are invulnerable during GKs. This was confirmed in an interview with Stratton which someone posted here a little while ago. So far, I haven't seen any downside (tactically speaking) for doing a GK whenever you can, only pluses.

While I don't disagree with some of the things you are saying, you are missing my point a bit, which is simply this: when health and ammo were laid out in the level, they were a resource you had control over and thus another variable you had to play with. Crucially, you could pass on the ammo/health and save it for later.

This is no longer the case. The game itself decides what health/ammo you will get based on need, and it gets sucked up automatically by your character. You can't pass on it either because it will disappear and you are locked in an arena with monsters until you kill them all. So the way healing happens is that you fight the sequence they lock you into and they dole out health and ammo as you need it with each kill, spoon-feeding you essentially. This makes a big difference, I think, even compared to a game like Wolfenstein TNO, where you would be in an arena-like area with ammo and health packs spread around that you had to use strategically. Basically, the current design takes a decision away from the player in favor of a streamlined experience.

[Jaxxoon R]

TheGamePhilosophe said:

So far, I haven't seen any downside (tactically speaking) for doing a GK whenever you can, only pluses.

How about getting close to the monsters in the first place? Especially if it's surrounded by other enemies whilst stunned.

[Super Mighty G]

Deatheye said:

but what about doom 3?

the new demons look a little bit too cartoonish imo - even the old demons from doom 2 look darker and more evil than the new one

The zombies in Doom 3 are laughable. I don't know about you but the Pinkies have always looked hokey to me. And to my knowledge there hasn't been a clear shot of the demon that I would describe as cartoonish.

[MrHofmann]

TheGamePhilosophe said:

There's no risk, as you are invulnerable during GKs. This was confirmed in an interview with Stratton which someone posted here a little while ago. So far, I haven't seen any downside (tactically speaking) for doing a GK whenever you can, only pluses.

Jaxxoon R:
"How about getting close to the monsters in the first place? Especially if it's surrounded by other enemies whilst stunned."

TheGamePhilosophe said:

While I don't disagree with some of the things you are saying, you are missing my point a bit, which is simply this: when health and ammo were laid out in the level, they were a resource you had control over and thus another variable you had to play with. Crucially, you could pass on the ammo/health and save it for later.

First your point was that item drop mechanic is the same as regeneration from modern shooters but disguised, which was proven wrong many times. And then, all of a sudden, your point changed to item drop mechanic removes the strategic element of old Doom because there are no ammo and health pickups placed in the level that you can manage as you like. Well guess what, new Doom removes all that crap because it wants you to fight constantly and not retreat to heal or what ever. It removes the strategic element from before or after the combat but adds it in the combat itself, and I would exchange planing and strategy before or while retreating from a fight with a more hectic and unique combat experience any day.

Caffeine Freak:
"and the fact that glory-killing an enemy yields the most health also introduces a strategic element that didn't exist in the previous games, especially in the midst of a heavy firefight. Do you risk the time it takes to stop and glory-kill a guy, or do you keep moving and see if you can wait until the crowd is thinned out a bit more before you heal yourself?"

TheGamePhilosophe said:

This is no longer the case. The game itself decides what health/ammo you will get based on need, and it gets sucked up automatically by your character. You can't pass on it either because it will disappear and you are locked in an arena with monsters until you kill them all. So the way healing happens is that you fight the sequence they lock you into and they dole out health and ammo as you need it with each kill, spoon-feeding you essentially. This makes a big difference, I think, even compared to a game like Wolfenstein TNO, where you would be in an arena-like area with ammo and health packs spread around that you had to use strategically. Basically, the current design takes a decision away from the player in favor of a streamlined experience.

Half of this is not true and the other half you don't even know, only retarded assumptions.

[DooM_RO]

TheGamePhilosophe said:

There's no risk, as you are invulnerable during GKs. This was confirmed in an interview with Stratton which someone posted here a little while ago. So far, I haven't seen any downside (tactically speaking) for doing a GK whenever you can, only pluses.

While I don't disagree with some of the things you are saying, you are missing my point a bit, which is simply this: when health and ammo were laid out in the level, they were a resource you had control over and thus another variable you had to play with. Crucially, you could pass on the ammo/health and save it for later.

This is no longer the case. The game itself decides what health/ammo you will get based on need, and it gets sucked up automatically by your character. You can't pass on it either because it will disappear and you are locked in an arena with monsters until you kill them all. So the way healing happens is that you fight the sequence they lock you into and they dole out health and ammo as you need it with each kill, spoon-feeding you essentially. This makes a big difference, I think, even compared to a game like Wolfenstein TNO, where you would be in an arena-like area with ammo and health packs spread around that you had to use strategically. Basically, the current design takes a decision away from the player in favor of a streamlined experience.

Mate, it really sounds like you really hate the game, don't like anything about it and are really bitter about it so why are you still wasting your time with it?

Is it really so inconceivable to you that some people LIKE the game? It really sounds like you're confusing this place with Reddit or /v/ or some other retarded shithole.