Wad creator looking for testers and creative advice

[death112]

One of the most enjoyable tyson map for me was probably MAP20 from 200minvr.wad. (Has a fun gimmick with a cyberdemon)
MAP29 of the same wad wasn't that bad either. However I ran over many maps designed for tyson-ing, which unfortunately I can't recall anymore.

To agree with obake here, caco's are a pain to fight with fists. They can shred you in seconds, because they have some sort of instant melee. Also i want to agree with obake with his oppinion on arch-viles. AV's can be a piece of cake if you get them right and on the other side, they can give the player hell, if ignored for too long.

I will give it another shot on HMP, like you recommended. I didn't play more than MAP01, so i could record demos for fist playthroughts for the other maps, if you'd like.

[Fonze]

Damn obake, that's what I'm talking about right there. I almost don't know what to say, except that you may be one of the people this map was intended for, thank you for having fun with it!
You brought up so many important points that I feel the need to go through real quick (or slow for me haha).

I'm glad you enjoyed the overall concept of the map. I had been getting very worried about many issues that have been brought up by others and the lack of good things to say. I also like the fact that you found the light switch, did it upset you that it takes 2 hits to make it work? Idk why it does that, but I kinda liked the glitch after I noticed it and kept it. But if it upsets people it can be changed.

Tedious is definitely not good, I will have to fix that. I'm also very happy that you beat it on UV, as that means that I'm not just beating it because I created it. I hope HMP felt right, but for those of us who like this stuff it can be hard to make sure it's completely balanced for that level of difficulty.

This next part I agree 100% with you on. Too much saving can become tedious and I may have put too many cacos in particular throughout the green maze. At the time of creation for this map, cacos were easier for me to punch out, but more and more I learn that I dodge baron shots easier. As such, I may replace some of the cacos with other monsters.

I like that you liked that box room, I designed it with that in mind, and I feel I did a better job with that room than the other miniboss rooms.

As for the low health, assuming I take out some cacos, did it feel like there was enough health on UV? I'd assume there was if you survived, but if it was tough in a particular area (I think you are referring to the green maze) I could put in more. Keep in mind when I play it there is almost too much health, but I also save 2-3 times per level, usually once every 15 mins. I suppose more health pickups would make people feel better, but for me the issue is surviving long enough to run back to the health (like if they surround you or a big enemy gets lucky).

About the music, I'm kinda lame on that, I love the stock music lol. Something about simulated heavy metal without a singer to ruin things seems to appeal to me. I liked the first level music cause it fits the heavy action parts, but I could see how a creepy theme song would make it pop. I would be happy with using stock music, but switching the levels they belong to. Like using the track from MAP02 of the Doom 2 iWad. Something like that would be cool and I could do that later.

Good job on 6 of the 8! The other 2 could have been in the grey maze in the beginning. The walls are unmarked, but a quick look at the map Will tell you something is up (symmetry).

Thank you for testing on the differing difficulties as well! I've tested all of them extensively, but of course HNTR was not meant for me, so balancing is an important thing to test.

As for your two edits, I think that is the part where someone should say, "DONT ENCOURAGE HIM!" Omfg I would love to replace some of those cacos with arch-viles, I can already think of at least two places that would be perfect. And making the green maze smaller and more cramped? Are you kidding me? Now we're talkin! Lol. But I feel I should wait on that to get the oppinions of others, as many seem to find the entire concept frustrating.

Did you notice the second half had green walls? Or were you simply referring to the fact that it was just a recolored version of what was in the gray portion? The floor and ceiling textures should be different, you're also 100% right on that. I will change that tonight.

Sorry for the long post, but your comprehensive review deserved a decent response, on many great topics, from me. Thank you so much once again for your time and effort, and I hope you continue to have fun with these :)

[Fonze]

Sorry for two in a row here, death is a faster typist than me lol.

To death: ah ok, I haven't played that wad yet, I will have to give it a shot when I get time.

Yeah I agree with that statement about cacos more and more it seems lol. I will change most, but not all, of them to something different.

Suggestions for replacements for the cacos? Maybe hk's (prolly not), revenants (maybe?), definitely now arch-viles, but what else?

Thank you for giving it another shot, you should find HMP much more enjoyable :)

Idk why bro, maybe it's cause I'm typically stupid, but something about that last sentence isn't clicking in my head. Are you referring to fist playthroughs of my other maps? I don't know that that will be possible on MAP02 or MAP04, though it should be (theoretically speaking, I've never thought to attempt it) possible to Tyson run MAP03. Or were you talking about the maps from 200minvr.wad?

Thanks y'all:)

[death112]

Well, you've got more than 1 map and i haven't played the others yet.
Sometimes it helps the mapper, if he sees how a player actually adjusts to his creations. So i thought, i'd also record those sessions.
Maybe you can find patterns/similarities what players do in maps, to adjust to that.
For example lure the player somewhere, according to the maps architecture. Or players have a tendency to die in a certain area because of lack/ammo and you can decide if you want to adjust that a bit.

[Fonze]

Ah ok, yeah man I'm all for that. That would be perfect, but of course I can't ask that of everyone. Just for your knowledge before you record, so you know what kind of file size to expect of the videos, MAP01 takes me about 55 minutes, one hour if I lose a monster in the green maze lol. MAP02 takes me roughly 45 minutes, MAP03 takes about 15, but there are two directions to choose from from the beginning depending on your approach, and last MAP04 takes me 20 minutes to beat, but there's no way others will match that unless they are farmiliar with it. Expect MAP04 to take you an hour the first time.

I hope that'll help you with your recordings (that will greatly help me) since you may need to adjust frame rates or resolution of the recorder since some maps can take a while. Then again, I'm a slow Doom player, so you should base the time estimates on your time vs mine for MAP01, you prolly play faster than I do.

*Edit*
Those times are for UV, btw. So HNTR and HMP will play through faster, especially on level 2 if you get the shotgun, which does not exist in UV.

[death112]

No worries about filesize man .lmp files dont take up alota space. The only problem with zdoom demofiles though might be, that you can't fast forward or rewind (atleast to my knowledge)

[Fonze]

Interesting, I thought you were talking about posting to YouTube or something. How do I play a .lmp file?
Also, my comp has a virus and I'm waiting til I get my new laptop to wipe it and reload OS. So I'm assuming that for this .lmp file, it will be a link posted here to something like a dropbox containing the file, like how most wads are done?
Forgive me for the stupid questions, but I'm a hermit and not used to forums and internet sharing yet.
*Edit*
I transfer files from phone to computer. So no worries there.

[death112]

Well, for zdoom/gzdoom there is only one way iirc:
Write a batch-file or copy the zdoom/gzdoom executable.

You gonna need these 3 commands for this case: -iwad doom2.wad -file DFLoE1.4.wad -playdemo add_demoname.lmp

Also what i forgot to mention last time. Weirdly enough i got missing texture errors in some places. In my peek into MAP02 i also saw them at the windows.
Here 2 screenshots:

[Fonze]

Uh oh, I didn't realize you were playing with Doom 2 iWad. I used TNT as the iWad for creation due to Doom 2 lacking in many areas, and TNT has some cool textures. I had updated the OP to say that, but perhaps I did it too late. My apologies for the miscommunication.

I suppose I could fix that issue if I exported then imported (I guess) the textures from TNT, but idk if that would be stealing or mess anything up, so I'm comfortable (due to my lack of knowledge on these things) continuing to use TNT as the iWad. Though if it would not mess anything up if I did that and make things easier for the community, I could address that issue.

I'm gonna need to do some research on that other stuff tho, I'm no programmer, though from my childhood I am pretty farmiliar with MS_DOS. I never wrote a batch file before and I'm confused as to just about everything, except I understand those three lines of code would go one after another (in assuming without a spacer-line in between them)

*Edit*
Also, make sure you're playing most current version, 1.4, as I had accidentally potentially broken a couple triggers in MAP04 in the big tree area. I say potentially because I left two triggers as repeatable actions, as well as one of them having multiple lines, due to location, which could lead to those three floors lowering far into the depths of the Earth-void (it's a forest in the void). This can lead to players getting trapped though, which sucks.

[death112]

No worries, i assumed doom2.wad is used, because thats it in the most cases.
I didn't read the description careful enough, because no errors with tnt.

[Dylan Jarvis]

I'll give this a shot when I get off work!

[Fonze]

Thank you stiffy!

To death: I'm glad to hear that there's no errors in zDoom when this wad is played on your comp with your set up, I know that settings and whatnot of both comps and ports can change things. Though as far as textures go, unless I somehow misalligned a texture and missed it, all textures should be spot on. If you see any I'd be glad to fix them :)

[Fonze]

I've been giving it some thought y'all, and I think I may have found a good compromise to what I believe my main issue is at this time: MAP01 isn't sucking people in.
It's long and repetitious, with little eye candy in the maze portions of the map. Not to mention the very concepts of a punching map in tight quarters with low light levels are frustrating to most players (it seems).

My thought for a solution is this:

First and foremost, new stuff put on the walls in the short, grey maze.

Also, a new map area to replace the entire green maze for HNTR and HMP difficulties. I'm considering locking the UV difficulty til MAP30 is completed, which I will ask about in another thread.

For the new area, I could do something similar, but with more cool looking stuff, wider corridors, shorter, and with a higher brightness level.

I really want to make this megawad something the community will enjoy with a good amount of replay value (for those who like that sort of thing). Please give me your thoughts on this.

[scifista42]

Fonze said:

I really want to make this megawad something the community will enjoy with a good amount of replay value (for those who like that sort of thing). Please give me your thoughts on this.

No mazes are the way to go. Also avoid using narrow corridors. Good architecture should be easy to navigate around, possible to take a look around, and impressive to look at. And gameplay shouldn't all take place on a flat ground. Play with variations, and don't ever let the player be bored.

[Fonze]

Thanks for the advice bro! My next version will fix all those problems. I still have no feedback on maps 2-4 though... Hopefully my next version will feature a good enough MAP01 to suck people in.
Right now I'm still leaning towards the fixes only being applied to HMP and HNTR (with those two modes featuring a different map with or without only one tiny maze-like corridor that is spaceous).
Let me know what y'all think about that idea.

[scifista42]

As you're a beginner, focus straight on the core: Try to make a map which is simply good. You don't need to think too hard about details that will affect the entire wad, or various difficulties. By the way, you can only change thing placement among difficulties, not map architecture, unless you use ACS to check player's current difficulty level and warp him to different maps upon exit according to the difficulty level. But this is too advanced, and I believe unnecessary to do and care about at all. Don't focus on anything else than making each of your maps as good on its own as you can, that's what I recommend for the start of your mapping career.

[Fonze]

ACS is unnecessary for that. It can be accomplished with simple triggers, teleporters and the like. Look at my 4th and unfinished 5th maps, you'll see what I'm talking about.

[obake]

So I tried out map 02 on UV...did not finish. That was frustrating as all get out.

The concept is a little more vague than in map 01. Instead of berserking through monsters, you are left only with the pistol and chainsaw. The idea is interesting but the map itself was not at all fun to play. :(

I like the designs of the rooms, and all of the details and textures you used. The box room is interesting and sort of maze like, but not too difficult to figure out. I also like the cave area with the fireblu pits.

However, using a pistol and chainsaw against spectres, zombiemen, cacodemons, imps, and lost souls in giant groups was frustrating, especially as health pickups were especially scarce. I got to the point where I was at less than 10% health for the majority of my playthrough.

There are a few ways the problems could be remedied:

1.)Give the player a shotgun and one box of shells early on. This would allow just enough ammo to spark through some of the more annoying enemy groups, while still being limited.

2.)Give the player the rocket launcher early on, and keep single rocket pickups consistent but few throughout the map. Say one rocket every two or three encounters. This would make enemy encounters much more enjoyable.

3.)Definitely give more health pickups, especially medkits. Also fix the blue key trap so the door back out of the room moves up quickly. Either that, or get rid of the spectre next to the door.

I hope I don't sound too harsh on these points. I definitely see a lot of work and care has gone into this. I will try out the map again later, on easy as well as normal difficulty.

[Fonze]

Nice obake, I appreciate you moving on to MAP02. As with all maps I'd recommend UV difficulty last. It would prolly be best to just start on easy and work your way up, since UV for most maps is the equivalent of my HMP; my UV is for those already farmiliar with the maps. That sentence is partly the reason why I make some maps different on the differing difficulties (and I'm referring to map design as well, not just monsters and items). On UV mode is it critical to find most secrets in each map, though every map is beatable without them. There are also two berserk backs in this map, if you like to punch stuff.

The idea for MAP02 as far as guns go is that easy and medium are given a shotgun right away (as a secret). Jumping is needed for some secrets, like this one, but never for map completion. Ducking is never needed. UV, however, is only given a pistol, with the chainsaw coming a few rooms in to help with demons, cause it just sucks to kill them with pistol. The reason for this is because I want a level devoted to each weapon and the secrets to get each weapon early to be more valuable. Once you get a weapon or backpack in Doom that's it, you always have it. Aside from pistol starts to each map there's no point in making secrets in later maps for anything but health, ammo and powerups. I like gun secrets, those were one of my favorite things about the original Doom, when you had the opportunity to get a gun earlier than normal through a secret. But it's a let down when the gun is right in front of you in the next room.

As for your recommended fixes, easy and normal take care of #1.

#2: the more I think about it, a rocket launcher would be a hilarious addition to MAP02 on UV difficulty. Right now it's a secret near the end of MAP03, but I could change that to a super shotgun.

#3: more medkits for UV difficulty in MAP02. I suppose it depends on whether you find all the secrets or not. As I said, I have run through MAP02 on UV without finding any and been fine, but I could throw a few more in there.

Would you prefer the extra health in the existing secrets on the map or in the normal areas? Also, where did health become a problem for you?

The blue key trap, I guess it depends on how you approach it. If you wait where the blue key is for the spectre to come to you, you can literally chainsaw everything in the room easily. Also, there are two secrets with health and ammo in that room.

Oh and you don't sound too harsh, I say any advice is good advice, and I know I can come across as a dick sometimes, so your good with me.

Thanks for your time so far! I look forward to your reviews on easy and normal modes.

[Super Mighty G]

Fonze said:

Jumping is needed for some secrets, like this one, but never for map completion.

For future reference you should specify that a zdoom based source port is required rather than recommended when jumping is a factor.

Also you've made it apparent that UV difficulty is only for expert players. You should have explicit message in your OP to indicate this as almost everyone plays on UV by default.

[scifista42]

^I second both of those suggestions. As I see it, clarity about compatibility is super important, and clarity about difficulty should better be there too.

[Salt-Man Z]

U.O.D. said:

For future reference you should specify that a zdoom based source port is required rather than recommended when jumping is a factor.

I feel that both should be stated outright: "This wad runs under ZDoom, and jumping may be required for some secrets."

[Fonze]

Good, solid advice. I took a break for a couple months before I started posting up here and when I do I start forgetting shtuff. Originally I wanted it to be vanilla compatable but I forgot on my last couple maps that I ran into vanilla's limits and had to switch (gotta love getting old [not that old, mind you]). Sorry for the miscommunication fellas. OP has been edited to reflect that jumping while unnecessary for completion, is required for certain secrets, not to mention makes navigating these maps easier.

I also put in the OP, which I could be sworn I put in there before, but I guess I didn't, that UV is not intended for the uninitiated. Get some hair on your chest first boy.

Thanks for the suggestions yall, I love any thoughts that come in from the community.