What if Doom 4 Guy is Doom 4 Girl?

[esselfortium]

larrypotter said:

You can always make games with female protagonists yourself so they are more represented.

Yeah, Scuba, get your shit together! Where's all the games, Scuba???

[an_mutt]

FireFish said:

I am really growing tired of weird sexists crying about woman in video games and movies... They want games with woman ;

Tomb raider ; 1998
Tekken ; 199?
morrowind ; 2002
joan of arc ; 2004
oblivion ; 2006
mirrors edge ; 2008
skyrim ; 2011
the demons forge ; 2012
Hundreds of mmorpg ; 2004 to now
hundred of japanese games ; 1990'to Now

Literally the majority of the games you quoted here do not feature women as the protagonist, except for Tomb Raider. A game franchise with the most recent entry having used the threat of rape to its protagonist as a plot device.

Why the fuck am I responding to this thread

The distressingly large majority of people who care about video games do not know anything about gender politics in gaming, and need to stop posting about it.

Just shut up about women in games, please, everyone

Fucking TEKKEN as an example of a game with women, for crying out loud. i am fucking picking my jaw up from my desk.

[geo]

What if the protagonist in BioShock 2 wasn't a Big Daddy, but a Big Sister and that's why you have all sorts of mobility? Big Daddies from the first game weren't that mobile.

If you're talking about female protagonists in video games, here's the good, the bad and the jokes:

- Heavenly Sword's protagonist
- Bayonetta
- Perfect Dark's protagonist
- Ms Pacman
- Shantae, but she's pretty uh sex toy
- Finding Teddy's protagonist
- Oola Oolala or whatever her name is, but she's pretty bimbo especially in Sonic's racing.
- Beyond Good & Evil's protagonist
- Dreamfall's protagonist
- Ellen Ripley's Kid in Alien Isolation
- Aliens: Colonial Marines DLC Chapter 1... the one that made Alien: Isolation happen
- Lady Sia
- Dead Or Alive's Katsume and Ayane are the protagonists. Feuding half sisters. Just watch the movie, its all about the ladies.
- Gone Home... but I still think you're really the ghost that found the girl's things since you have no reflection
- Offspring Fling's protagonist is a female, just not a human

[ChickenOrBeef]

I'm of the opinion that the gender representation criticizers should start making more video games if they want characters to be a certain gender, instead of demanding some type of quota. Criticizing a certain character for being offensive is one thing, but simply demanding more female characters doesn't make sense to me.

With that said, keeping the identity of the "Doom Marine" ambiguous makes perfect sense for Doom 4.

an_mutt said:

A game franchise with the most recent entry having used the threat of rape to its protagonist as a plot device.

And what's wrong with that? Was the game saying it's OK to rape women? No, they're just saying it's something that villainous male character would do.

The fact that feminists get upset about non-issues like that just dilutes feminism.

[larrypotter]

Captain Red said:

You can also ask developers for better representation just like you can ask for any other feature like fans have been doing since video games had developers to talk to. Holy Moly.

Yeah, and I have no problem with that.But many game franchises have their established characters as well and as long as fans are happy and developers deliver what fans want, then what's the problem? Is it really a bad thing that women are underrepresented if the developers are targeting mostly male audience?

[ChickenOrBeef]

larrypotter said:

Is it really a bad thing that women are underrepresented if the developers are targeting mostly male audience?

Instead of that, I'd rather ask "Is it really a bad thing that women are underrepresented if the developers are mostly male?"

What if the developers don't want to make a female fronted game? Go make it yourself (speaking in general).

[The 1st Gamer]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I wasn't intending on starting a debate over feminism here, I was simply wondering what your thoughts on a female doom marine were.

[Linguica]

The 1st Gamer said:

Thanks for the replies everyone. I wasn't intending on starting a debate over feminism here,

Haha you must be new here

[Arctangent]

ChickenOrBeef said:

Instead of that, I'd rather ask "Is it really a bad thing that women are underrepresented if the developers are mostly male?"

There're reasons for that, and it's not because women don't have interest in game development.

Granted, most of the reasons don't actually stem from game developers themselves, but the result is still the same.

ChickenOrBeef said:

What if the developers don't want to make a female fronted game? Go make it yourself (speaking in general).

Games take a lot of time and effort and, usually, money. Plus, they require skills that are only used in other fields women are shunned away from.

I mean, fair enough if the developers don't want to make a game that stars a woman, but that doesn't free them from the criticism that they aren't helping with gender equality.

[ChickenOrBeef]

Arctangent said:

they require skills that are only used in other fields women are shunned away from.

OK, now we're tracing back to the supposed real issue then, which is good. We should focus on the root issue instead of trying to even out the results. But this brings up the classic nature VS nurture discussion. Feminsim blames society for the lack of females in computer science fields, but there's plenty of evidence pointing to differences in the male and female brains that lead to differing interests.

Arctangent said:

I mean, fair enough if the developers don't want to make a game that stars a woman, but that doesn't free them from the criticism that they aren't helping with gender equality.

That shouldn't be criticism though. Wanting more games with females is one thing, but criticizing on a game-by-game basis? It's like if someone wants more RTS games and says Doom should be an RTS game instead of a shooter.

[DooM_RO]

The player who played the game at E3 was a woman according to interviews.

[geo]

DooM_RO said:

The player who played the game at E3 was a woman according to interviews.

That's cool. Both genders, all races, creeds and colors should play games. Addressing their gender, race or creed makes it sound intentional when its really a person playing.

Saying a person is woman makes it sound like a handicap like that person played blindfolded.

I saw on the news today Gay Pitcher throws No Hitter. Is it special that he threw a no hitter or is it special that he's gay? Did the other players know he's gay so they eased up?

There was that publicity stunt from Game Stop where a girl won a Smash Bros tournament. I'm not sure if it was progressive that she won it only to have it turned out she was just holding the controller while behind the scenes a "professional gamer" was the one pushing the buttons. Makes me think twice about all of those live streams of people beating Battle Toads without dying or blindfolded Mike Tyson players.

[Clonehunter]

This thread is going places.

[Deleted_Account]

Clonehunter said:

This thread is going places.

Will it go to E3?

[geo]

Piper Maru said:

Will it go to E3?

I didn't see that many Youtubers at E3 this year. Youtube itself covered E3.

[mrthejoshmon]

I liked the time when nobody cared about this pointless shit.

Those who really care about how people are portrayed in fiction and fantasy really need to grow a spine, it is all make believe and not real.

[FireFish]

mrthejoshmon said:

I liked the time when nobody cared about this pointless shit.

Those who really care about how people are portrayed in fiction and fantasy really need to grow a spine, it is all make believe and not real.

Could not have been written any better.

[geo]

But think about all the women dying to play as a woman to not break the illusion! Totally not men wanting to play as a female. Women make up 50% of people that say they play games. It only makes sense that this isn't Doom 4 but rather Ms Doom.

[Arctangent]

mrthejoshmon said:

I liked the time when nobody cared about this pointless shit.

So you liked a time that didn't exist, then? Stuff like this has always been around and has always been relevant, it's only become more vocal lately.

[mrthejoshmon]

Arctangent said:

So you liked a time that didn't exist, then? Stuff like this has always been around and has always been relevant, it's only become more vocal lately.

I meant in gaming dude, literally nobody cared about this like 10-8 years ago.

[esselfortium]

mrthejoshmon said:

I liked the time when nobody cared about this pointless shit.

Those who really care about how people are portrayed in fiction and fantasy really need to grow a spine, it is all make believe and not real.

Presumably you count yourselves among the people who 'need to grow a spine', since you're complaining about it too?

Something is pretty obviously wrong when the mere suggestion that more games should have more diverse protagonists always leads to backlash, defensiveness, and "why do you care? i don't care, i just care that you care! stop caring! i don't want things to change, even though i'm saying that they don't matter!", as is inevitably seen in every thread on here where the subject comes up.

[Arctangent]

mrthejoshmon said:

I meant in gaming dude, literally nobody cared about this like 10-8 years ago.

So you liked a time that didn't exist, then? Stuff like this has always been around and has always been relevant, it's only become more vocal lately.

[Linguica]

What they mean is "a decade ago there weren't people complaining about this stuff on any websites I read, and I wish we could go back to that."

[FireFish]

Actually just to prove a point i am going to do this one last thing...

an_mutt said:

Literally the majority of the games you quoted here do not feature women as the protagonist

Lets take a look at the small example list again, and an addition ;

YOU CHOSE the sex of your protagonist ;

morrowind ; 2002
Pokemon games since 2002/2003 (Japanese games, when my gen. where young teens.)
oblivion ; 2006
skyrim ; 2011
way of the samurai 2 ; 2003/2004 (Japanese game)
(almost) Hundreds of mmorpg ; 2004 to now

YOU NEED to play as a female protagonist ;

Tomb raider ; 1998
joan of arc ; 2004
mirrors edge ; 2008
gost in the shell stand alone complex (Japanese game)

YOU NEED to play both as equals in battle
the demons forge ; 2012

YOU CHOSE to play with the woman to see the simple story
Tekken ; 199?
almost every fighter ever made.

You claim the majority of them DO NOT have female protagonists because you are one of those selectively blind people, ignoring and neglecting everything which is not feeding that personal weird little world view.

[Deleted_Account]

In Resident Evil you CHOSE to play as Jill Valentine. Resident Evil 2, you chose to play as Claire Redfield, and In Resident Evil 3 and Code Veronica you needed to play as both Jill and Claire in their respective games.

[Arctangent]

FireFish said:

bluh

Well, not really. I pointed out that Tomb Raider, etc. are fair examples, but the rest don't really count, at least not to the value of actual female protagonists.

In games you make your own character, well, there's nothing really to count. Sure, the protagonist could be female, but it could just as easily be male, or something with no concept of gender or sex. As I said, it would help gender equality in games if these games were the majority, as while they wouldn't increase the games with female protagonists, they would also not increase the games with male protagonists.

The games like Tekken are kind of hard to count, as they usually have far larger male rosters than female ones and the actual protagonists of the series ( Kazama, Ryu, Siegfried, etc. ) tend to be males. Granted, in some of them females do serve as a protagonist in games with multiple protagonists, but those are still the minority.

Demon's Forge seems like the female character is only there for fanservice, so uh.

It's not selective blindness, it's actually checking if the equality is actually there. You could have an RPG where all playable characters are male and it wouldn't matter if 80% of the NPCs are female, because even if most of the characters are female they're barely important and most if not all of them end up one-dimensional.

[hardcore_gamer]

Making the Doom marine a girl doesn't make any sense considering what kind of character the Doom marine is. The Doom marine has always been a big walking brute that carries a million guns and tears demons into pieces with his bear hands. That's not the kind of character that I would cast a women into. This doesn't mean women can't be action heroes of course, but the Doom marine just isn't a good example of a action hero that would work as well as a women.

Look, is it really that hard to accept that some kinds of character roles are just better suites for men or women? Could you make Duke Nukem work as a female character for example?

I have no problems with devs creating NEW female characters for their games, but I really don't like the idea of changing pre-existing characters just cus.

[Jaxxoon R]

He's only really that strong in this one because of a super suit, and in the originals only because of a super serum. I mean I don't really understand the idea that one can't be a vengeful soldier of merciless extermination (Doom) or a giant egotist (Duke) just because they're female.

[FireFish]

Arctangent said:

It's not selective blindness, it's actually checking if the equality is actually there. You could have an RPG where all playable characters are male and it wouldn't matter if 80% of the NPCs are female, because even if most of the characters are female they're barely important and most if not all of them end up one-dimensional.

First of all i respect your point of view, but you cant ignore the actual facts...

If it is up to the PLAYER to chose if his or her protagonist is female or male for the actual main story like most elder scrolls or most online mmorpg ever made... then one needs to be selectively blind to 'shuffle' them under the bed because they actually prove woman have been in games and are in games for many years now.

No matter how much proof and examples somebody could post, most people invested in this fake fight only read and see what they want to see... or else the fake fight is over and they would have nothing to make their own self feel better.

Take a look at his very incomplete yet big list, and there are a lot of japanese games listed to... to counter the serious misinformation about japan in a post somewhere ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Video_games_featuring_female_protagonists

And i will yet again add an example ; assassins creed 3

It is a complete waste of time to do online debates with no mainstream impact or meaning with people reasoning like that, they always negate and try to hide or manipulate away any type of counter evidence... so i hope many of them come to their senses soon.

And the generic super hero / strong / photo model male in movies and games actually utilize the exact same concept as the generic beautiful / strong / photo model woman... many people in the "looks and behavior" argument department just seem to stupid to realize that not all men are one liner spouting body builders looking like the perfect tough guy able to get all he wants... (and pause for a second on this, and think about it.)


So yet again on topic...
I do not care if its a doomguy or doomwoman choice if i can CHOSE or NOT CHOSE. But it would make zero sense for the series to do so. and i would like to leave it at that.

[hardcore_gamer]

Jaxxoon R said:

He's only really that strong in this one because of a super suit, and in the originals only because of a super serum. I mean I don't really understand the idea that one can't be a vengeful soldier of merciless extermination (Doom) or a giant egotist (Duke) just because they're female.

Duke isn't just a giant egoist. He is also a sexist who has a strong love for saving his "babes" from aliens. Really, I can't imagine a better example of a character that would not work as a female than Duke Nukem. If 3D realms decided to make a Duke Nukem reboot with Duke as a female people would just laugh at them.

As for the marine in the new Doom using a super suit, I think you are missing my point. I just don't think masculine women make good characters. I just don't. Strong and independent? Sure. But strong isn't actually the same as masculine. Call me a sexist all you want, but I just don't think women work as masculine super heroes. The fact of the matter is, men just have the advantage is this regard. They are bigger, have more muscle, and have deeper more powerful voices (though I admit the Doom marine doesn't actually speak). Men are just more masculine than women are, and thus are better suited for certain kinds of roles. No amount of political correctness is ever going to change this.