What if Doom 4 Guy is Doom 4 Girl?

[Arctangent]

FireFish said:

they actually prove woman have been in games and are in games for many years now.

... Yes. Yes, women have been in games for many years now.

Ignoring the fact that you put that in the broadest sense possible, the point isn't even that there's never been a female protagonist. There have been, that's obvious. The point is that there's still disproportionate amount of male protagonists compared to female ones.

Like I said before, it's a matter of scale; I pointed out that three examples you used are fair examples. But that's three. There are certainly more, but you have to actually think and look around for games with female protagonists. Compare that to games with male protagonists; you could probably just go down a list of every game ever released in random order and by the time you've run into one with a female protagonist you'd likely run into fifty with a male protagonist.

No matter how much proof and examples somebody could post, most people invested in this fake fight only read and see what they want to see... or else the fake fight is over and they would have nothing to make their own self feel better.

FireFish said:

Take a look at his very incomplete yet big list, and there are a lot of japanese games listed to... to counter the serious misinformation about japan in a post somewhere ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Video_games_featuring_female_protagonists

This is a great example. Incomplete, sure, but that's about 1.2k games.

So, how many games of all kinds were released in 2010? About 800.

... That's one year. One year and the amount of games total is only about 400 less than the amount of games with female protagonists that Wikipedia cares to note. 2011 had about 800, too. 2009 nearly had 1k. 2007 had ~950. That's recent years, of course, but even back in 1994 there were about ~700 games. Back in the 1980s they releases stayed about ~200 - ~300, but that's still yearly numbers.

It adds up a lot. And that's only for games that Wikipedia notices.

FireFish said:

And i will yet again add an example ; assassins creed 3

The funny thing about this example is that the series actually has controversy about not including female playable characters "because it would take too much time for the animators to animate them." Which is ridiculous, since in a combat situation the differences between the sexes' movement would be pretty minute and even if they didn't go the lazy way of just reusing the male animations they could've still been used as a base with only minor alterations.

FireFish said:

And the generic super hero / strong / photo model male in movies and games actually utilize the exact same concept as the generic beautiful / strong / photo model woman... many people in the "looks and behavior" argument department just seem to stupid to realize that not all men are one liner spouting body builders looking like the perfect tough guy able to get all he wants... (and pause for a second on this, and think about it.)

Yeah the media really does suck about this. Doesn't mean we can't strive to change it for both genders. Though at the same time, the guys still have it better than the girls, as while looking good is a safe fantasy to play on for ... basically any human, doing it through ridiculous generic "sexy" bodies with downright fanservicey outfits is a pretty niche way to do it. Relatively, being strong is such a safe fantasy to play on that at times it's just completely assumed.

[DooM_RO]

@Arctangent

Are you Anita Sarkeesian by any chance?

Anyway, there are more and more women in game development. The main story writer for Tomb Raider 2013 was a woman, the Lead Designer of Assassin's Creed is a woman, hell the player who played the E3 Doom demo was a freaking WOMAN.

Women are not in game development because most women ARE NOT INTO GAMING! In my country and many others, gaming is still perceived as weird and nerdy by many girls of my age. Sure, they might play Farmville or some other shitty cow clicker but nothing more substantial. And in contrast to what you may think, us guy gamers would like girls to play games too because we would like to share our interest with future girlfriends. Just ask any guy who plays games. Also, we are not against women in game development, we don't give a shit who makes our games. All that matters to us is how good the game is. That's it!

Last year Anita received abput 500k in donations. MORE than enough to start an indie company and prove BY EXAMPLE that women are interested and competent in the field of video game development. Instead she acts like the little coward she is and has the GALL to DEMAND from other people what to consume and what to make without doing ANYTHING.

I wouldn't mind at all if Doomguy was actually Doomgirl (in fact it would be a cool twist) but it should be because the DEVELOPERS WANT IT not because of some stupid little entitled SJW like her. There shouldn't be any stupid quota like "This year's games has had 30% or 40% women".

If women want to be better represented in games MAKE YOUR FUCKING GAMES! It's easier than ever now that we have powerful and cheap engines like Unreal 4 and platforms like Kickstarter. You have no fucking excuse.

Doom is all about pure gaming pleasure and politics have no place in it.

[Jaxxoon R]

hardcore_gamer said:

Duke isn't just a giant egoist. He is also a sexist who has a strong love for saving his "babes" from aliens. Really, I can't imagine a better example of a character that would not work as a female than Duke Nukem. If 3D realms decided to make a Duke Nukem reboot with Duke as a female people would just laugh at them.

As for the marine in the new Doom using a super suit, I think you are missing my point. I just don't think masculine women make good characters. I just don't. Strong and independent? Sure. But strong isn't actually the same as masculine. Call me a sexist all you want, but I just don't think women work as masculine super heroes. The fact of the matter is, men just have the advantage is this regard. They are bigger, have more muscle, and have deeper more powerful voices (though I admit the Doom marine doesn't actually speak). Men are just more masculine than women are, and thus are better suited for certain kinds of roles. No amount of political correctness is ever going to change this.

Duke works as a satirical character because he is built off the trope of the womanizing one-liner spouting action hero, and the humor comes from just how absurdly extreme he is in it, and also the fact that everyone in-universe loves and worships him despite being such a goofy asshole. Ironically, a female Duke reboot [Duchess Deckem?] would work well as a satirical jab at today's strive for "equal representation" of women in games, mostly due to how absurd it would be to see the character acting exactly the same regardless.

And you're saying that masculine women don't make good characters, you've made it clear that's your opinion and I commend you for not trying to trying to hail it as fact like a lot of internet people, but I still can't see how someone acting like the general conception of something else makes them a bad character. Could you further explain this?

...

As an exercise, let me remind you something about the classic marine's character: he has almost zero personality and what little there is characterizes him as a man with a soft spot for fragile, dainty animals and a hatred for corruption and harm of the innocent. Alright, not exactly deep but there's enough to give you and idea of what he's all about, even if the rabbit turning out to be his pet was mostly added in as a joke. And now let me break down the character of the Doom 4 marine based on the actions we've seen him take so far: he wanders aimlessly about a small environment, slaughters any intruders that threaten him, efficiently, or perhaps occasionally for his own amusement, purposefully inefficiently rips them apart and then uses what they leave behind to preserve his own life.

These are not masculine traits, these are not even human traits. Rather, these are animalistic traits, more akin to a jaguar than a man -- the intricate fatalities mirroring a cat toying with its prey. A weapon of stealthy murder dispatched according to orders, hunting either for himself or for his pride, simultaneously to protect what is his-- his brethren, the base, the earth, and to satisfy his lust for destruction.

Therefore, a female Doom 4 marine wouldn't be a masculine character, rather she would be an animalistic character.

[FireFish]

Arctangent said:

Yeah the media really does suck about this. Doesn't mean we can't strive to change it for both genders. Though at the same time, the guys still have it better than the girls, as while looking good is a safe fantasy to play on for ... basically any human, doing it through ridiculous generic "sexy" bodies with downright fanservicey outfits is a pretty niche way to do it. Relatively, being strong is such a safe fantasy to play on that at times it's just completely assumed.

I have no problems with males being like that, and you totally missed the point in what i wrote.

Your reasoning literally comes down to ;
because they draw or render woman while looking good and having a nice body or having stereotypical appearances and because they act like any other game or movie character, its sexist and fanservice is weird. Beautiful or stylistic unrealistic depictions of woman are abnormal.

But broaden the spectrum here towards the entire picture ;
They drawn and render men while looking good and having a nice body or having stereotypical appearances and because they act like any other game or movie character, its sexist against woman and not fanservice. Beautiful or stylistic unrealistic depictions of men are against woman ?

Do you hear or see a lot of men complaining about those extremely unrealistic fictional men, whom could even provide attraction based fanservice to the gay and woman attracted to the concept ?

No, because it fictional. And it is being sexist when one would make a big deal out of it.

-- now im here for DooM and not endless debates with brick walls. im out of this thread.

[Arctangent]

DooM_RO said:

Are you Anita Sarkeesian by any chance?

Well, no, I appreciate Peach for one. Zelda could probably step up some more, but she's making progress.

DooM_RO said:

Women are not in game development because most women ARE NOT INTO GAMING!

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

DooM_RO said:

And in contrast to what you may think, us guy gamers would like girls to play games too because we would like to share our interest with future girlfriends. Just ask any guy who plays games. Also, we are not against women in game development, we don't give a shit who makes our games. All that matters to us is how good the game is. That's it!

That's great. It also shows you have very little experience with the gaming community as a whole, as the trend is actually quite the opposite. Granted, the majority of gamers are just extremely toxic in many ways, but that doesn't make their rampant sexism any less worse. Which is why it might not seem like girls are interested in gaming - it's because they're afraid they'll get blown up at because they admitted it.

Let me say this: aside from the rare troublemaker, the Doom community treats me well. And that's fantastic. It's just not typical. Voice chat is not remotely an option for me in most games, because not only am I a girl but I also have a voice I can only describe a "squawky". Attempting to use it will just result in mockery. Attempting to use it has resulted in mockery. And derogatory jokes.

DooM_RO said:

Last year Anita received abput 500k in donations. MORE than enough to start an indie company and prove BY EXAMPLE that women are interested and competent in the field of video game development. Instead she acts like the little coward she is and has the GALL to DEMAND from other people what to consume and what to make without doing ANYTHING.

... Okay?

I'm not a fan of Anita myself, but just because she has interest in digging through the less savory parts of gaming does not mean she has an interest in game development. I mean, those seem like entirely separate things to me. It'd also be kind of silly to go into the field with no actual experience in game or level design to prove a point that could easily be turned around by releasing a shoddy product.

DooM_RO said:

There shouldn't be any stupid quota like "This year's games has had 30% or 40% women".

The point isn't that there should be an actual quota, it's that a quota would be irrelevant because the gender ratio would be less skewed by default.

DooM_RO said:

If women want to be better represented in games MAKE YOUR FUCKING GAMES!

To be fair, my brain prefers game concepts starring monsters or otherwise non-human protagonists, or where they play a very vital role or the "protagonist" is really just a vehicle for monsters to get around. Though at the same time a lot of human protagonists are women, too. Only problem is, y'know, actually making the game, because

DooM_RO said:

It's easier than ever now that we have powerful and cheap engines like Unreal 4 and platforms like Kickstarter.

"easier" is entirely relative and it's extremely difficult to make a game, especially a solo venture. Especially a solo venture with no musical skills and really, really sub-part art skills.

DooM_RO said:

You have no fucking excuse.

See both the above and the Anita response. Not everyone who has interest in games is interested in game design, and it's not an easy thing for those that are interested. I've checked out Unreal 4 myself. It'd be pretty impenetrable for someone with no prior experience.

DooM_RO said:

Doom is all about pure gaming pleasure and politics have no place in it.

And yet despite this, id seems to be taking a path that both saves them time, effort, and money and also circumnavigating the issue entirely by not voicing the protagonist and shoving them into power armor that makes their race and sex entirely ambiguous. It might not be the best game for gaming politics, but clearly id is aware of them and has no reason to not try and help in ways they can - so shouldn't others follow their example?

FireFish said:

blur

Imagine you fall on your arm real bad and break it. You get a cast, the bones mend, cast comes off and everything's dandy.

Now imagine you come across someone who had such a nasty spill that their arm is completely unusable, either due to being damage beyond repair.

Would you say your experience with falling on your arm and breaking it gives you the ability to speak for this other person and tell them it's not that bad?

[FireFish]

I cant help myself... i like to debate... but not like this.

Arctangent said:

You have a very mature and developed way of communicating about such heavy subjects, my sarcasm meter could not be at a higher level at this moment though.

-> Everything which proves you are not 100% correct gets ignored.

-> every counter point able to debase your narrow view is "blur, and aaaaaaaah."

-> you invent a completely out of place manipulative piece about breaking an arm and knowing what its like... to manipulate and remove from the debate my previous point about there being no difference between two certain things...

and that was ;

Spoiler

Your reasoning literally comes down to ;
because they draw or render woman while looking good and having a nice body or having stereotypical appearances and because they act like any other game or movie character, its sexist and fanservice is weird. Beautiful or stylistic unrealistic depictions of woman are abnormal.

But broaden the spectrum here towards the entire picture ;
They drawn and render men while looking good and having a nice body or having stereotypical appearances and because they act like any other game or movie character, its sexist against woman and not fanservice. Beautiful or stylistic unrealistic depictions of men are against woman ?

You are a stereotypical internet based keyboard warrior.

[Arctangent]

FireFish said:

-> Everything which proves you are not 100% correct gets ignored.

Actually if I don't have a response to something it usually just means ... I don't have a response to something. It might just be not worth commenting on or correct but correct in a way that goes without saying.

FireFish said:

-> every counter point able to debase your narrow view is "blur, and aaaaaaaah."

nah that's just me having a response without having a specific part of a quote to point out, so I replace it with some random noise so the quote box will show up

More to show that I'm responding to your entire post without just reposting the entire post than to debase you.

FireFish said:

-> you invent a completely out of place manipulative piece about breaking an arm and knowing what its like... to manipulate and remove from the debate my previous point about there being no difference between two certain things...

Except they are different things, and them being similar does not invalidate that. A quote often used by a certain group of gamers often goes like "hey, this girl hasn't had issue with mockery while playing games" which could be entirely true, but they often use it to say that sexism isn't a big deal in gaming when it really, really is. The experience of one person does not invalidate the experience of others. Guys not having issues with how they're portrayed in media does not invalidate girls having issue with how they're portrayed. Heck, they don't even invalidate other guys having issues with how guys or girls are portrayed in media, either.

[FireFish]

Arctangent said:

cut for space

Because some people do not like it, everybody in existence needs to change and end up using or wanting the same... that is the logic you are creating with your reasoning.

Because some men or woman do not like certain games everybody needs to bend and give up on what they like and want. But those people are so stuck up that they keep focusing on the few games they do not like, while ignoring and refusing to accept the hundreds of games being exactly what they want...

So ;
No matter how gigantic a list of factual example games could be, they will find them to be irrelevant and unworthy. The only reason they claim them to be irrelevant and unworthy is because they do not fit their own individual narrow thought bubble.

While ;
many gamers who grew up on games and computers like me are actually stating non stop about them not caring one bit about what sex they play as when it comes up, and in this thread many have given multiple examples of games with protagonist or important woman and how they have no problems with it.

Most gamers of any type and longevity not involved in those fake internet wars would throw you a weird left or right eye with raised eyebrows if you would suddenly say ; well i am playing as an unrealistic, a perfectionist, or a parody female or man... this is sexist. and those are the majority of people buying games.

So is sexism such a giant big deal in gaming ?
probably not, not beyond the internet warriors as not one fake scandal or internet war around this subject has ever reached the mainstream news over here...

You personally do not like many games with men or woman, i and many other in this thread seem to accept that. You however keep dismissing, ignoring, and destroying the factual examples just as in the example written under the "so ;" paragraph. And while you might dissect this, or give valid or invalid counter points...

i accept you not liking some games and portrayals and will attempt to stay out of this from now on... as i am also partially guilty of stretching this useless debate.

[Captain Red]

FireFish said:

Because some people do not like it, everybody in existence needs to change and end up using or wanting the same... that is the logic you are creating with your reasoning.

Holy persecution complex batman!

[40oz]

Arctangent said:

Ignoring the fact that you put that in the broadest sense possible, the point isn't even that there's never been a female protagonist. There have been, that's obvious. The point is that there's still disproportionate amount of male protagonists compared to female ones.

I'm not trying to be facetious, but what is the agenda here? To balance out the volume of video games that primarily had male protagonists with games that primarily had female protagonists by flooding the market with female protagonist games to settle the score? Were talking about several decades where this was the least of the target markets concern. No ones excluding anyone from these games. In movies, dudes like violence and action, women like romance and drama. If more dudes watched movies than women, then yes there would be a disproportionate number of macho action movies to chick flicks. You can apologize and even make reparations for slavery but you don't enslave everyone for a hundred years until they've learned their lesson.

In relation to doom, its a reboot of an existing franchise. I'm not sure people would get it is The Amazing Spiderman was now The Amazing Spider Person. Although I would have loved to see a HUD face in the new doom game, I think that the fact that theyre not clear about the sex of the protagonist in this game is a step in the right direction.

[DooM_RO]

Who the fuck gives a shit if it's a male or female anyway? All I care is if the game is good. That's it.

[kelliegator]

DooM_RO said:

Women are not in game development because most women ARE NOT INTO GAMING!

That's a bold statement son, I'm a woman who's been gaming for 20+ years. Same for my sister and other people. And statistics say that circa 50% of women are gamers, and that goes for all types of games, not just mobile games (I dunno how people get used to mobile games).

In the case of Doom I suppose there's no need for "politics", no. When people try to flesh out Doom it usually ends in tears, I can't for the life of me remember what in god's name the plot of Doom 3 was or what names the characters have. I suppose the novels are more true to the source material but aside from some batshit insane passages here and there it's all rather dull. And I try to pretend the movie doesn't exist.

The comic, though, that one got it right. RIP AND TEAR. <3

[scifista42]

DooM_RO said:

Who the fuck gives a shit if it's a male or female anyway? All I care is if the game is good. That's it.

Understandable from gamer's point of view, but you know that the people who give a shit are not always gamers like those who only care about themselves having an immediate fun with a game.

[DooM_RO]

kelliegator said:

That's a bold statement son, I'm a woman who's been gaming for 20+ years. Same for my sister and other people. And statistics say that circa 50% of women are gamers, and that goes for all types of games, not just mobile games (I dunno how people get used to mobile games).

In the case of Doom I suppose there's no need for "politics", no. When people try to flesh out Doom it usually ends in tears, I can't for the life of me remember what in god's name the plot of Doom 3 was or what names the characters have. I suppose the novels are more true to the source material but aside from some batshit insane passages here and there it's all rather dull. And I try to pretend the movie doesn't exist.

The comic, though, that one got it right. RIP AND TEAR. <3

Who's to say those statistics aren't bullshit? What do those statistics consider gamers? Farmville players? DOTA 2 players? Core gamers? Retro Gamers? You mention a statistic but do not even mention its source so we can verify its credibility.

Farmville and Candy Crush players are by no means gamers and if you do consider them gamers, I'm just going to ignore you from now on.

It's great that women are getting into gaming but the numbers aren't nearly as inflated as SJWs believe.

By the way, I have a little treat for you guys.



Duke Nukem...DUKE FUCKING NUKEM. A game that is not only pretty violent but also misogynistic to the extreme. FUCKING DUKE NUKEM! DUKE FUCKING NUKEM!!!!!

Arctangent said:

Well, no, I appreciate Peach for one. Zelda could probably step up some more, but she's making progress.

"easier" is entirely relative and it's extremely difficult to make a game, especially a solo venture. Especially a solo venture with no musical skills and really, really sub-part art skills.

HOLY SHIT BATMAN! Games are fucking hard to make! Who would have thought? Better have the men make games according to MY biased specifications because I'm a woman. What, you disagree? It means you're sexist and I'm going to write about it on Tumblr.

Read Masters of Doom. No one cared that Romero and Carmack were talented, they had to prove themselves, they had to make sacrifices and they had to take risks. It is now time for the emerging woman gamer demographic to PROVE THEMSELVES. And they are and they were doing this even before the likes of Anita. Just look at Assassin's Creed and BioWare. They were doing just fine.

[DooM_RO]

AAAAAH fucking hell, do we really want these kinds of discussions on Doomworld? Can't we just go back to talking about Doom and Doom 4?

[kelliegator]

DooM_RO said:

Who's to say those statistics aren't bullshit? What do those statistics consider gamers? Farmville players? DOTA 2 players? Core gamers? Retro Gamers?

Farmville and Candy Crush players are by no means gamers and if you do consider them gamers, I'm just going to ignore you from now on.

It's great that women are getting into gaming but the numbers aren't nearly as inflated as SJWs believe.

Well, there's no clear, dictionary definition of "gamer" so the statistics probably go for people who play video games. And technically speaking "gamer" is an adjective so it shouldn't be that complicated.

Sadly I can't find the study I was thinking of right off the bad but I'd like to point out the interesting curiosity that half of all women are part of the PC gamer master race. http://www.pcgamer.com/researchers-find-that-female-pc-gamers-outnumber-males/

Make of that if you will but you can ignore me, too. Just saying we womenfolk do game. Not trying to pick a fight here, we should go back to talking about Doom.

[Jaxxoon R]

I'm just disappointed nobody paid any mind to my thoughtful analysis of the Doom 4 marine's actions, likening them to that of a predatory creature defending its territory. C'mon now, it's a fascinating metaphor I feel.

[Phml]

https://medium.com/@galyonkin/some-things-you-should-know-about-steam-5eaffcf33218
"While female gamers constitute a large part of the PC gaming audience (49 to 51 percent depending on the research), they are less likely to be on Steam."
"there are around 4% of visitors on Steam that are female"

As per the PCgamer article, studies showing ~50% of female gamers include social platforms such as Facebook, Kongregate and the like.

You could say Steam isn't PC gaming, but it's pretty close for most genres. There's some notable exceptions; MMOs have dozens of millions players and have significantly higher female to male ratios.

[FireFish]

Phml said:

cut for space

I highly doubt that study is anything to go on... because most Chinese players only have 6 games it proves they all pirate ?* And the fact its a third party data mining tool somehow farming account information with no way to detect the (highly probable) thousands upon thousands of accounts with totally faked gender and general information makes it even less easy to accept it.

and i am not all that comfortable with weird third party data mining tools doing global mining on user information... It seems these companies and organisations never learn and remain untrustworthy.

Yet, woman play games we all know, and they can without any trouble or blame... as beyond the internet and nerd parties not a lot, if any, of the 'majority' of gamers seem to make problems out of it (yet).


*china pirates but you do not conclude that by the number of games they have on steam.

[SirKicksalot]

I'd like Doomguy to be a guy in the main game, and like for Doom 3 the expansions should introduce new characters, including female marines. Doomguy is just as iconic as B.J. or Mario.

Or bring back the marines-playing-cards intro, and there you can choose your gender.

DooM_RO said:

Duke Nukem...DUKE FUCKING NUKEM. A game that is not only pretty violent but also misogynistic to the extreme. FUCKING DUKE NUKEM! DUKE FUCKING NUKEM!!!!!

I think Duke is a hedonist, not a misogynist.

[Linguica]

This thread has gotten so bad that I figured it deserves to be in the proper forum.

[geo]

Linguica said:

This thread has gotten so bad that I figured it deserves to be in the proper forum.

When I thought this game (*edit* thread) was going places, I never thought that it would end up here.

[Clonehunter]

I'm surprised you didn't just lock the thread outright, with Anita being thrown into the hellish mix.

As for the guy who made this thread, probably with no intentions of going to where this thread has went, welcome to Doomworld, may you have a happy life here.

Jaxxoon R said:

Ironically, a female Duke reboot [Duchess Deckem?] would work well as a satirical jab at today's strive for "equal representation" of women in games, mostly due to how absurd it would be to see the character acting exactly the same regardless.

Uuhh, Bombshell?

[Breezeep]

The hell is going on in this thread?

[geo]

What if at the end of the game Doom4Guy takes off his helmet to reveal he's Batruger? Then he sprouts wings and flies away.

[geo]

Breezeep said:

This thread is going on in hell?

You made a word scramble!

[Jaxxoon R]

Clonehunter said:

Uuhh, Bombshell?

Who?

[hardcore_gamer]

geo said:

What if at the end of the game Doom4Guy takes off his helmet to reveal he's Batruger? Then he sprouts wings and flies away.

That would actually be a pretty awesome plot twist.

[Jaxxoon R]

And then the Icon of Sin removes his mask and is revealed to be the blowjob tile from Doctor Who.

[geo]

Jaxxoon R said:

And then the Icon of Sin removes his mask and is revealed to be the blowjob tile from Doctor Who.

Don't mention that thing in a thread title summarized by guy 4 girl.