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quakke

DOOM 4 and Perks

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Mogul said:

Going back to the armor example, if you pick the stealth suit, it should drastically change the way you have to play to succeed, by both giving you fun, new abilities to sneak, but also by raising your vulnerability.



Considering how id Software demonstrated how this doom really is inspired by the original doom games, all of the suggestions you are giving, just make it less like it. You are just wanting one of these "super games" where you do everything in one game. Play GTA series then. Typically when a game tries to do it all, it does them all mediocrely, whereas a game that just concentrates on specific area does it better. Reason the super games don't work is because it's not that easy to make one and because the developers don't have infinite amount of time to make their games. Also very often gamers think that "oh, that be cool and this be cool and yeah, it would be cool if this was in" but they don't realize that not necessarily all the cool ideas transfer too well into the actual game or even work in the first place.

"if you pick the stealth suit, it should drastically change the way you have to play to succeed"

This forexample has nothing to do with fps here and especially not doom. Stealth, in doom. Are you serious? Doom is about exploring and killing and thankfully id Software seems to agree.

id Software at E3: said:

"That's why from the beginning of this project, we've been inspired by the way those original Doom games made us feel when we played them. Although their premise was simple, they made us feel smart and fast and powerful."
http://youtu.be/QiinO9JPUGw?t=1m24s

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quakke said:

"if you pick the stealth suit, it should drastically change the way you have to play to succeed"

This forexample has nothing to do with fps here and especially not doom. Stealth, in doom. Are you serious? Doom is about exploring and killing and thankfully id Software seems to agree.


This is kind of the status-quo with modern games. I see it as over-design. Instead of letting the player use their style and how they wield the systems of the game to express their play style, developers create a ton of sub-mechanics to simulate player choice... it becomes rote and stilted.

For example:

in Doom I or II, one player may be slow and methodical, choosing to pick off enemies from afar. Almost like a sniper. While another player may choose to be more clever with the environment and use in-fighting, funneling enemies together and using splash damage to take out large groups. You could call this player the Espionage/Explosives Expert. Another player could be gung-ho all-guns-blazing, strafe-running chaingunning and plasma rifleing down enemies head-on. This guy would be the Assault Expert.

The beauty about Doom is that it can be any or all of those at any given time. It's dynamic and can change on the fly at any moment, you could of course limit player options through level design, but it all works within the ruleset of the game without any stilted subsystems.

Modern games give the illusion of player choice through subsystems, as if player choice is merely a check-box or menu selection. I honestly don't see how this is at all superior to what Doom was before. All you have done is created a mechanic to sub-divide things that players have always passively done. It's kinda like having a cover mechanic, even though players have been using their environment as cover since Wolfenstein 3D.

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quakke said:

This forexample has nothing to do with fps here and especially not doom. Stealth, in doom. Are you serious?


I'm sorry your reading comprehension is so low, but I don't really have the time or resources to help you. Practice up some more before you attempt to engage an adult in conversation.

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Avoozl said:

Bethesda seems to have an obsession with their own game mechanics that they also want them in the ID games, they started doing perks with Fallout 3


Well fallout always had perks. They pretty much copied the perks from Fallout 2 that I remember. I think 1 also had perks.

It's just one of those random things.

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Mogul said:

I'm sorry your reading comprehension is so low, but I don't really have the time or resources to help you. Practice up some more before you attempt to engage an adult in conversation.


It's nice that you have to resolve on personal attacks, just because you can't comprehend the fact that not everyone wants an First Person Shooter game, to become some stealth/home cooking simulator. Especially when this game franchise only happened to like pretty much create this entire genre, based on wolf3d's footsteps.

I would once again like to remind you, that even id Software think it's good idea for it to be an actual shooter.

id Software at E3: said:

"That's why from the beginning of this project, we've been inspired by the way those original Doom games made us feel when we played them. Although their premise was simple, they made us feel smart and fast and powerful."
http://youtu.be/QiinO9JPUGw?t=1m24s

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Alright idiot, let me spell it out for you since you still continue to fail at reading. I didn't suggest stealth for the new DOOM. I did suggest perks a la Wolf TNO. The reference to stealth was specifically in the context of a paragraph centered around poorly-implemented gameplay variety facilitated by Rage's armor suits.

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Mogul said:

Alright idiot, let me spell it out for you since you still continue to fail at reading. I didn't suggest stealth for the new DOOM. I did suggest perks a la Wolf TNO. The reference to stealth was specifically in the context of a paragraph centered around poorly-implemented gameplay variety facilitated by Rage's armor suits.


Haha, still think you are winning on this :D

New Order had the kinda things that slowdown the gameplay and make just annoying modern experience. How was one? Oh, i believe there was an "perk" to get the *no need to use ads when using pistol* something like that. Again, completely useless, but i suppose your kinda carrot-on-stick-gamer would ofc love it.

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Mogul said:

I'm sorry your reading comprehension is so low, but I don't really have the time or resources to help you. Practice up some more before you attempt to engage an adult in conversation.

Mogul said:

Alright idiot, let me spell it out for you since you still continue to fail at reading. I didn't suggest stealth for the new DOOM. I did suggest perks a la Wolf TNO. The reference to stealth was specifically in the context of a paragraph centered around poorly-implemented gameplay variety facilitated by Rage's armor suits.


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I'd like to add, if not a small perk system similar to TNO, than a more fleshed out version of the backpack and the adrenaline from Quake 2 would be cool; tiny collectible permanent boosts to ammo and armor/health hidden around the levels.
When you are pretty full on health and ammo, there's no real reason to explore the levels beyond just looking at the environment, unless you have collectibles that unlock an achievement, and I really hate those.

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Something to keep in mind is that length of play doesn't always mean enjoyment of play. A game can have expertly designed reward systems that lead to addiction and dozens (if not hundreds) of hours logged, but the player may not technically be enjoying the game.

I had sort of an epiphany about this subject after playing the Destiny beta. That game is so transparent with its carrot-on-a-stick design, that I now try to take a step back and think if I'm actually enjoying the qualities of the game I'm playing or am I just playing the game to unlock things.

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If the dopamine is there, how much does it matter what you're doing? Not a rhetorical question. A really interesting design philosophy question.

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ChickenOrBeef said:

Something to keep in mind is that length of play doesn't always mean enjoyment of play. A game can have expertly designed reward systems that lead to addiction and dozens (if not hundreds) of hours logged, but the player may not technically be enjoying the game.

I had sort of an epiphany about this subject after playing the Destiny beta. That game is so transparent with its carrot-on-a-stick design, that I now try to take a step back and think if I'm actually enjoying the qualities of the game I'm playing or am I just playing the game to unlock things.


If a game's base gameplay is boring, no amount of carrots will keep you addicted, especially not for hundreds of hours. *edit* Or rather they shouldn't, I understand there's a whole entire mobile market with games that have this exact issue but get people addicted.
It also depends on how its all being handled; if you unlock things naturally through the game's typical progression, all is good. If it is a grind, there's a problem. I have no problems with really generic things like "After 100 total kills, you get slightly bigger clips for guns" or "Kill 2 Cyberdemons and every rocket you pick up is doubled", something you were going to do regardless. What I don't like is "Use your fists to kill a Cyberdemon 10 times" because how many times are you going to do this, especially in a first playthrough, if you weren't egged on in the first place?

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I don't see the need for Doom to be more like Borderlands when Borderlands already exists and yet triple-AAA twitch shooters like Doom kind of don't these days. As it is it's filling a void in the market that's existed for almost a decade, and that's a good thing y'know.

I'm fine with hard-hidden fancies flippin' around as long as they don't add too much abstraction to what's being touted as an apparent, elegantly core game by the designers. I'm all down with something like a toggleable version of the Demon Keys or Powerslave's Artifacts.

Imagine flying around the map like a mad mother and you stumble upon a thingie. Bam, suddenly falling into molten silver is no longer instakill, rather you have a good 2 seconds to jump back out. Or getting a slightly better air control. Or giving your shotgun a rapid-fire triple shot, of course with some (?) sort of drawback I imagine.

The question is if this'd break the flow of the game or get annoying at all. I've watched all the gameplay clips, and people have mentioned seeing the shotgun being toggled between single and triple shot fire. I honestly never noticed this at all until it being pointed out, and I think that speaks to the benefit of the system. However, it was likely done using the time-slow weapon wheel, so I imagine it could be bad for those that dislike that particular mechanic.

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Jaxxoon R said:

Ha ha, the joke's on you. Doom 64's Unmaker had infuriatingly hard-to-find upgrade modules that turned it into an OP pimpslapper of a weapon by the end of the game.

[winjig]

Unmaker should be in the new game ;)

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What's wrong with experience levels and ability boosts anyway? Isn't Strife like this? You advance through the game and become more powerful thanks to all those stamina and training vouchers you regularly receive.

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printz said:

What's wrong with experience levels and ability boosts anyway? Isn't Strife like this?


Nothing is wrong with it in Strife... but Strife isn't exactly a pure action game like Doom is.

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Mogul said:

If the dopamine is there, how much does it matter what you're doing? Not a rhetorical question. A really interesting design philosophy question.


Who's dopamine are we talking about?

Progressive leveling and rewards are all fine and good and they've been an industry standard for quite some time. But just because it's modern doesn't necessarily make it preferable or more advanced to some people.

Id has been talking about going back to the roots with the new Doom, and are making it a point to please fans of the originals. If anything, the new Doom is here to challenge the mainstream gameplay standards as they have become today.

There will definitely be people who like skill trees and leveling and such, and we'll probably see all sorts of stuff like that in Snapmap.

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Mogul said:

If the dopamine is there, how much does it matter what you're doing? Not a rhetorical question. A really interesting design philosophy question.


It's as if you're listening to the songs in a classic album so you can finish the album, rate it on your favorite music websites, and feel like you've accomplished something, rather than just listen to the songs because you enjoy them. The enjoyment from the former comes more from the meta aspect, the result of your actions.

These two different types of enjoyment aren't mutually exclusive of course, but my point is that the focus should be on providing an innately enjoyable experience. If I'm sitting on my couch playing video games, I don't care about a fake sense of accomplishment. I'd rather accomplish something more worthwhile. Instead I just want to enjoy shooting things, moving around, hearing great SFX and music, etc. The more time and effort that goes towards that, the better.

And personally, those are the reasons I'll keep replaying a game over the years. My favorite game is Final Fantasy X, which I've played around 15 times (it's a 40 hour game). I don't replay it so I can level up again. I replay it because I love the story, music, battle system, characters, art style, world, etc.

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How is collecting bigger and better guns the further you progress through the game not a perk system itself?

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TheWizard said:

How is collecting bigger and better guns the further you progress through the game not a perk system itself?


It is, but 7 guns is not exactly an in-depth perk system. You also have to go find those weapons, so it's not a case of "Play long enough to get 1,000 XP and earn the Plasma Rifle". It seems Doom 4 is expanding on that by adding weapon mods. Acquiring weapons and mods will require exploration though, and not XP (according to what Marty Stratton said).

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ChickenOrBeef said:

I love the story, music, battle system, characters, art style, world, etc.


i.e. dopamine. Whatever mechanism causes it, that's what you come back for.

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Honestly the only games where I enjoy perks in is the Fallout titles, the same goes for kill cams too.

I never liked either of them when they were brought into the TES franchise nor the Wolfenstein franchise, I am more used to those kinds of games without them.

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Mogul said:

i.e. dopamine. Whatever mechanism causes it, that's what you come back for.


If you are going to think of it abstractly like that, then why even play video games? Just watch some Netflix, listen to some music, or just fucking eat a ton of chocolate if it's merely the chemical reaction you are chasing.

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Mogul said:

i.e. dopamine. Whatever mechanism causes it, that's what you come back for.


Exactly, and a false sense of achievement doesn't make me happy anymore.

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I would like to see a God of War progression system where enemies drop soul globes. The bigger the enemies are the more souls you get. You can also get them from secrets. You use these souls to choose between two upgrades for each weapon. For example, for the pistol you can choose between a charged blast and a projectile that goes through enemies. Upgrading also changes the look of the weapon.

I don't see why this wouldn't work in Doom.

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DooM_RO said:

I would like to see a God of War progression system where enemies drop soul globes. The bigger the enemies are the more souls you get. You can also get them from secrets. You use these souls to choose between two upgrades for each weapon. For example, for the pistol you can choose between a charged blast and a projectile that goes through enemies. Upgrading also changes the look of the weapon.

I don't see why this wouldn't work in Doom.


Sure, an arbitrary progression system would work in any FPS,but what exactly would you improve,gameplay-wise, by doing that? Would Doom and Doom II be better than they were if you had an ever-evolving arsenal, instead of a balanced arsenel of weapons that each had their advantages depending on the situation?

There is nothing a skill-tree or weapon upgrade system could do that would be superior to a system based on power-ups and consumables (see Super Mario Bros 3 and Quake 2 as examples)

I'm not saying it isn't in the game BTW, I just doubt it because of how focused id Software seem to be on a fast, tight gameplay experience. Really harkens back to the id of old, especially durring the Quake 3 era where it seemed they were much more interested in crafting an arcade game with a laser-focus on smooth mechanics over any gimmicks or superfluous subsystems.

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I don't think you should pull the player away from the gameplay and make him sit at screen where he has to choose and investigate things.

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No perks, i don't wanna see any perks in Doom 4, because otherwise it will be a dissapointment, perks will just make the game easier, if you want perks then get out of here and play COD and its shit-clones.
As for mods, that's fine by me, since they make old weaps you have collected on your way don't seem like they lost thier use and allow for different ways of killing enemies.

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