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GoatLord

How important is AI to you?

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It's never been a huge deal in Doom games, but I have found that both classic Doom and Doom 3 could be surprisingly clever.

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Monsters should fire to their targets with good accuracy. If they miss their target, it should be for a good reason, like that the target is very far, or it has changed position unexpectedly (and if it didn't, the attack would hit). I just don't want monsters arbitrarily missing their target from a short distance in order to decrease the game's difficulty and let the player run around like crazy with minimum threat, because it looks and feels stupid. Right, I imagine how the opposite side of the spectrum will have negative consequences as well (impeding gameplay, which the developers said they didn't want to), but I just mean that the AI shouldn't act too stupidly inefficiently when doing actions like attacking a target, which (from the monster's perspective) should better be efficient. They also shouldn't be patroling in a way that would suspiciously look like they don't want to notice the player. And similar things.

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I like how the new game has monsters climbing up after you if you take the high ground. Gives it more of a sense like they're really after you. All the baddies seem very fluid with their motions.

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I mentioned this in another thread, but it really bugs me how the human characters just stand there and shoot. All of the other monsters act far more aggressively. Maybe they just haven't tweeked the humans yet?

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Maybe they're going for the dumb zombie thing with them. They could also be dumb with the intent of being the only easy way to get health and pickups. I think that would be ok.

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They say that they are using the AI system developed in RAGE, where enemies were fairly acrobatic in their movements.

They claim that this will lead to truly dynamic, unscripted encounters. But I'm skeptical.

As someone who played a lot of RAGE, I came to realize that a lot of the enemy dynamism is smoke and mirrors. Many of the most interesting things they do (bouncing off walls, jumping over obstacles, hanging from ceilings) are in fact scripted moments.

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I don't particularly care how smart they are, as long as they facilitate smart play from the player and are challenging to fight. If I want a battle of wits and intelligence I'll play multiplayer.

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How A.I. should be really varies from game to game. I think the Killzone series has some of the best A.I. ever in gaming but it doesn't always make sense for zombies to know how to flank you or flush you out with grenades, so I'm expecting less smarts and more bullet hell out of Doom 4.

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kelliegator said:

How A.I. should be really varies from game to game. I think the Killzone series has some of the best A.I. ever in gaming but it doesn't always make sense for zombies to know how to flank you or flush you out with grenades, so I'm expecting less smarts and more bullet hell out of Doom 4.


Should probably vary from monster to monster, which seems to be the case in this game, and that's a good thing imo.

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It looks like they took the AI from Rage and are making a more straight forward shooter with it, which is fantastic to me. I hope the little walking turrets make a return, those were some of the highlights from both Doom 3 and Rage

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As long as it makes the game more enjoyable to play. You have the AI from all the doom games, plus other stand-alone mods(Brutal doom & the like). Which makes for surprising encounters, but if they can evolve it & make it better, faster & stronger. Then I'm all for it. ;-)

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I remember in Doom 3, the humans were very aggressive, and weren't afraid to duck behind cover, roll out of the way, etc. That was cool. In neo-Doom I didn't see any of that, at least not with humans. The demons were more actively in pursuit.

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As I've posted elsewhere, I'm big into enemy AI, and there are some examples of too good AI like Far Cry 1 where you can get pistol sniped from a mile away. Even Brutal Doom has dangerous AI.

There's good AI that lets the player live and bad AI that's deadly.

I've always liked the idea of enemy personalities. An imp is an imp with 100% accuracy, but what if one imp has accuracy within 5 degrees. I appreciate wiggle room with attacks where nothing is 100% accurate. Unless its some sort of stealth game.

If they are 100% accurate, then it becomes an issue of how much damage they do and their distance away. There's also vision cones too. Do enemies always see you or they need to be aware of your presence to be looking for you.

Also if they are 100% accurate is that where you are now or where you are moving to? Elder Scrolls games were always good at predicting where you will be so you couldn't just strafe.

Does a dead enemy or a sound wake them to your presence? Can they smell you before they hear you? Can an Imp smell you no matter where you go? Does a Mancubus have poor eyesight so if you're far enough away, it can't see you? Does an arch-vile prefer to stand behind enemies and use magic on you?

Can then set up an ambush? They hear you coming, so they hide until you walk by then they attack. Then it turns into an almost monster closet situation and as much as people bitch about linear shooters, they complain about monster closets. What do you mean I have to watch my back? That's crazy. Back tracking; What's that?

Rage's enemy AI felt good, but the problem was there were still a lot of scripted events. After having to replay levels a frustrating amount of time, I do feel like they had logic to hide behind cover vs breaching cover, but everything flashy was scripted. I can't imagine chain gunners jumping over desks. I can't imagine imps crawling on the ceilings and walls. They should, but they won't.

The rage AI was smart enough to take cover, but I'm not sure people want Doom enemies taking cover so much as they want a shooting gallery. There were enemies that would run away rather than fight. Its a nice amount of detail that I'm just not sure Doom can use.

I just can't imagine zombie men, imps, chain gunners and barons taking cover or hiding. Charge AI would be nice as well. Pinkies charging, but Pinkies always zig zagged.

Zombies should feel sluggish... they're zombies. Unless of course they're just undead people like you and I, then they can be smart, take cover, steal better weapons from dead bodies, take your health packs off the ground.

Duke Forever had good AI that would flank you, some would jump at you, others would teleport behind you. Grenades thrown.

I always mention grenades, and Rage's AI threw grenades, its a good way to get things moving. Someone hiding behind cover? Throw a grenade.

Then there's the cyberdemon AI... should he shoot where your feet are if there's no wall behind you? If you're behind cover does he shoot the floor next to the cover to still catch you in the splash damage? So no where is truly safe.

Doom 3's humans did take cover, but a lot of it felt like it was always planned. Like there was a desk right there so it will always take cover. Rage felt very similar to that too.

The best way to prove AI is the rock and a waterfall method. Have an enemy with you in a room. Then put an object between you and the enemy. Does the enemy use the object for cover to the left or the right. Do they breach the cover from the left or the right? Do they climb over the cover? Do they wait for reinforcements? Do they grenade you?

It has to be randomized within a preference. I prefer to go right, I prefer to climb, I hate running away, I'd rather have reinforcements, I want to attack the player's back. Imps want to climb. Imps want to attack from behind. zombies don't care its breach over no matter what!

Then put multiple cover objects in a room. Do they go from cover to cover? Do they breach cover and go for you? Then put health in the room. If they're injured do they grab the health?

The same room yields different results and that proves AI beyond well its a hallway with a desk therefore it 100% all the time hides behind the desk shoots 2x and then breaches cover.

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I want to see Doom as "Dark Souls FPS" in terms of difficulty, but I understand so it's never happen.

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I would love to see new Doom monsters act like monsters should act. I hate that in D3 monsters know perfect where player is even if they do not see him. I would love to see monsters that can chase player vertically, rush on player but not in straight line - navigate throe walls and environment obstacles like mutants and ghost clan from Rage. I would love to see monsters that try to flank player or take alternative route to get on player back. If monster escape to room with other demons he should turn them on against player. I'm interested to see what single demon can do and how they will act in pack. Will they try to coordinate their attack or just everybody rush on player from one direction.

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