Raised Sector with Lift sidefs question.

[SYS]

Hi all,

I have a sector that is tagged to a sidef switch which does Sl Raise floor to next highest floor - change texture. I have two sidefs of the raised tagged sector to "SR Lift lower wait raise".

The floor raises as it should, but the tagged sides of the newly raised sector will not have the sector behave as a lift as intended. Any reasons? Suggestions? Thanks.

[Fonze]

Could it have something to do with another floor touching the lift thats messing it up?

Have you tried starting the map with the floor already raised to see if the lift works in the first place?

[SYS]

Lift does indeed work with the floor already raised. It's only touching the floors that it stops at the appropriate height once raised. Only thing I can think of is if the tag for the raise floor lindef is screwing with it, but I don't see how.

[Fonze]

Weird, I made a sample map to test it. It works for me. Have you made sure that the lines are all facing the correct directions?

Also, I'm assuming your mapping for standard Doom 2 format?

[SYS]

Standard Heretic, heh. I can flip the lines every which way doesn't do anything. Maybe that's it or some other strange thing is screwy.

[scifista42]

The linedefs with "SR Lift lower wait raise" should use the same tag as the lift, not tag 0. Only in ZDoom-based ports, tag 0 is interpreted as the back side of the line, but in classic ports, it's interpreted as all sectors with tag 0 in the entire map.

Also, the linedef's front side must face the player who is trying to press use on it - otherwise the action won't trigger.

Was either of these the problem?

EDIT: Wait, you said Heretic. Heretic's linedef specials (the numbers) are not the same as Doom's. Are you sure you're using the Heretic ones? See also this.

[Fonze]

Well shit, I assumed wrong, and you know what they say about that ;p

Even still, knowing the Doom engine it can't be much different than in standard Doom. If anything, Heretic prolly makes it easier, since it came out later.

Here's the drop box link to the example wad I made to test the mechanics. Like scifista said, all lines involved as well as the sector of the switch should be tagged the same.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e5cvk0q1bnommqd/Floor%20Raise%2BLift%20Example.wad?dl=0

I hope this helps :)

[SYS]

They all have the same tag. It's a matter of the SR lift action not responding once the floor is raised. If the floor is already raised the lift will work as intended but not before. Also when you attempt to trigger the lift after the floor is raised it makes no sound, not even the secret humping grunt.

Heretic should make it easier since it came out later, but apparently there's an engine quirk that makes it impossible.

http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=62572413548838714786

I copy pasta'd the tutorial map into Heretic and the lift is now broken lol.

[Fonze]

SYS said:

I copy pasta'd the tutorial map into Heretic and the lift is now broken lol.

Mmm... Pasta...

Which tutorial map? One from the Doom wikis or the one I posted here? The one I posted here would likely have wrong actions on the linedefs because of the difference in format. When I get home tonight after work I'll make an example map in heretic format and post it here.

If there is some kind of a quirk in the engine that would be weird, but I should encounter it too then.

[SYS]

They use the exact same linedef action numbers. It's 20 for S1 Floor Raise to Next Higher Floor (changes texture) & action 62 for SR lift lower wait raise. In DOOM2 as it is in Heretic.

[Fonze]

Ok this one is admittedly kicking my butt. This is what I got:

We know already it works in standard Doom 2 format.

Moving to Heretic format, it becomes immediately apparent that something's wrong.

I tested many different floor triggers together, not all, mind you, but a good amount. I tried to pick a decent variety of things to test, such as other actions that change texture, couple random floor actions, and the action that is the exact same as this one, but without the texture change.

No problems with the lift, no problems working together (well, one after another). The only problem seems to come from that one particular trigger. There is some quirk in the Heretic-specific engine that prevents any floor actions from occurring in that same sector after that one(I think) trigger is activated.

So what's the cause? Could it be possible through some quirk the engine marks the changing sector with the tag of the sector it borrows its floor texture from?
After testing, no >.<

Could it be that it was used somewhere in the normal Heretic iWad in a special way, such as the trigger "666" is used in Doom?
That would take time to scour the Heretic levels to see if it's the case. However, after testing we can see that ceiling actions in the sector still work. More frustration, lol.


After all this ultimately pointless effort, I have learned nothing about what causes the issue or how to rectify it. Though I suppose an easy workaround would be to use 2 switches instead of the one, since the other floor-texture changing actions and floor raise actions work fine with future floor actions, such as lifts.


As an afterthought, I may have been on the right track with the sector changing its tag. The tag part was clearly wrong, but is it possible that something it does needs to be "deactivated" or at least accounted for before any further floor actions can occur?
Unfortunately I cannot answer that. I'm only a little over 5 years in to this, and of course we all take breaks from time to time. Hopefully my testing may lead someone else to the discovery to help you bro :)

[scifista42]

Well, according to this post, it's simply a matter of the fact that various "Floor Raise to Next Higher Floor (changes texture)" actions in original Heretic block the floor from moving ever again afterwards, and modern ports are trying to keep the behaviour for compatibility.

[BaronOfStuff]

scifista42 said:

Well, according to this post, it's simply a matter of the fact that various "Floor Raise to Next Higher Floor (changes texture)" actions in original Heretic block the floor from moving ever again afterwards, and modern ports are trying to keep the behaviour for compatibility.

Huh, I had no clue that this problem even existed. It's pretty shitty when you think about it, and somewhat reflects on playtesters/mappers not really giving much of a fuck about level design.
Things About Heretic You Just Found Out!

[SYS]

No shit, lmfao. That is too funny. I had a feeling it was hardcoded. I've already been mapping around the issue lol.

[Fonze]

scifista42 said:

Well, according to this post, it's simply a matter of the fact that various "Floor Raise to Next Higher Floor (changes texture)" actions in original Heretic block the floor from moving ever again afterwards, and modern ports are trying to keep the behaviour for compatibility.

Interesting, I'm not suprised by that revalation after having looked at it somewhat thoroughly within one particular editor. Interesting also that Google didn't provide me that website last night when I was looking around for more info. Good find scifista!

So if it's hardcoded in, there shouldn't be any possible workarounds using the same action. But I wonder to what degree that's true. Scripting has never ceased to amaze me and even though it wouldn't be possible in standard Heretic format, it makes me wonder if that isn't something that could be "deactivated" or otherwise changed. Though I suppose that will have to be a project for another time.