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rdwpa

Waddling Dumbass Monsters

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I've always felt that -fast looked more natural. With the regular settings, monsters often waddle around all comatose like heroin junkies, not even getting a shot off before they get blasted to bits. It sometimes messes with my suspension of disbelief. -fast does come with its own set of flapdoodle -- endlessly firing monsters, meet corners. The demons also turn into two hundred pounds of peripatetic auto-chomping seizure meat, but then again, they become actual threats.

The game has been around too long for widespread balance changes, but if I could flip a switch and influence 1993 somehow, I'd give myself $10 billion in a trust fund to be unlocked today, oops, I mean, I'd make the monsters fire somewhat faster by default -- not quite at -fast speed, but at some healthy midpoint between regular and -fast. Except the Mancubus. In his sloth is his charm.

Thoughts?

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I expected this to be mainly about the Mancubus in how much of a fucking fat prick he is and was quickly dismissed by that last statement.

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The Mancubus is one of my favorite monsters because it's hilarious yet also can be pretty deadly. That combination is badass.

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Specially that way He makes that "BWAOOOM" noise When you shoot the Mancubus, It's a funny concept for a Demon. Though, my favorite monsters are: Shotgun Guys, Heavy Weapons Dudes, Revenants, Archviles (even though they're annoying, they give You a good challenge), and the Mancubus. Oh, and I guess Imps, and the Cyberdemon can be added In there.

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SavageCorona said:

I expected this to be mainly about the Mancubus in how much of a fucking fat prick he is and was quickly dismissed by that last statement.

Oh God, I laughed hard.

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I've never been able to unhear "IIIii'm your MAMA!" from its attack sound. what the fuck is wrong with me

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vadrig4r said:

Oh God, I laughed hard.


Oh God, I forgot to mention that one. xD; That was the most hilarious thing I read today.

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Doom's monsters are hardly a threat by themselves, even the most powerful of them. By comparison, even the lower-tier monsters or enemies of modern FPS feel like mini-boss fights in comparison.

Their moving speeds and reaction times are actually pretty adequate, if you scaled them up to RL. Walking is a bit on the lazy side, but that's OK. The real problem is that the player is overpowered compared to the monsters, especially his mobility, and IMO making everything -fast and powerful isn't a solution, because then you have overpowered vs overpowered, in a combination which favors the CPU too much due to reaction times being really stretched thin.

Rather than making the monsters faster, make Doomguy walk slower. MUCH slower. When he can zoom by at 17 mu/tic (map units per tic) just by regular running, that means that he can actually outrun most projectiles thrown at him in a straight line, which is crazy. Even with his walking speed he can can still outpace most monsters, even if barely.

But then again, if you did change all of this it wouldn't be Doom anymore. It would be CoD.

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Maes said:

But then again, if you did change all of this it wouldn't be Doom anymore. It would be CoD.


Bestest thing I heard all day.

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I wonder what kind of combat Tom Hall had in mind. At the very least, the player actually was slower, but there was no AI or weapon functionality, so the other half of the equation is kinda missing to tell what he was really going for.

The final product really was just half repurposing content made for a different game altogether and half filler. It was a good shooter, but it wasn't supposed to be just a good shooter, it was meant to tell a more complex story. Maybe not that complex, but certainly more than what we got.

Apparently Tom had already designed full levels for the Tei Tenga scenario that had been discarded once the game actually started being implemented. What we see are sickly torn down husks of a much more ambitious plan, made from the ground up as a compromise that neither side was happy with.

I've come to believe that the alpha versions represent a bad compromise: the designer desperately trying to keep his vision with a team headed in a completely different direction, making the entire product suffer as a boring and empty series of areas with none of Tom's cool stuff and none of the rest of the team's cool stuff.

If id's good at anything, it's rescuing broken accidents to seem like avant-garde miracles with the rubble. Quake 1 is an even better example of that than Doom 1 is.

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Sodaholic said:

If id's good at anything, it's rescuing broken accidents to seem like avant-garde miracles with the rubble. Quake 1 is an even better example of that than Doom 1 is.


Could you expand on this? I'm not familiar with Quake's developmental background.

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rdwpa said:

Could you expand on this? I'm not familiar with Quake's developmental background.

Romero was tasked with being the lead designer and kinda fell into a casual "rockstar" role rather than properly tacking the task - if Masters of Doom's representation is to be believed.

The original concept was to run around as a powerful god-made-man named "Quake" in an Aztec world, using a hammer with a heavy focus on 1-on-1 melee combat, even with ragdoll physics. The engine was undergoing heavy changes, so the rest of id was basically making assets for a non-existent game following a nebulous and vague design.

When the engine was actually ready for implementation and Romero hadn't really held up his end, the team kinda decided "fuck it" and just did a 'Doom 3' of sorts with what they had produced for an entirely different design.

That the final story was about "interdimensional chaos" and whatever was just a coverup for the broken dev cycle and total lack of consistent art/gameplay direction.

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Sodaholic said:

Romero was tasked with being the lead designer and kinda fell into a casual "rockstar" role rather than properly tacking the task - if Masters of Doom's representation is to be believed.

The original concept was to run around as a powerful god-made-man named "Quake" in an Aztec world, using a hammer with a heavy focus on 1-on-1 melee combat, even with ragdoll physics. The engine was undergoing heavy changes, so the rest of id was basically making assets for a non-existent game following a nebulous and vague design.

When the engine was actually ready for implementation and Romero hadn't really held up his end, the team kinda decided "fuck it" and just did a 'Doom 3' of sorts with what they had produced for an entirely different design.

That the final story was about "interdimensional chaos" and whatever was just a coverup for the broken dev cycle and total lack of consistent art/gameplay direction.


Exactly, You know Your Quake Dev History! Though, I wouldn't of liked the original concept TOO much, but It seems Turok did something similar, only a completely different plot and such.

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Tritnew said:

Exactly, You know Your Quake Dev History! Though, I wouldn't of liked the original concept TOO much, but It seems Turok did something similar, only a completely different plot and such.

I don't know man, I love how Quake turned out but smashing fucks with a hammer as a demi-god in an Aztec setting sounds like game of the century.

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vadrig4r said:

I don't know man, I love how Quake turned out but smashing fucks with a hammer as a demi-god in an Aztec setting sounds like game of the century.


No doubt about It, Sounds like something for a DOOM Mod though, someone should use that concept and make a Mod based off It.

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Romero was more interested in exploring design and more subjective things, Carmack was more concerned with just the tech side of things, making good showcases and licensing out.

id Software always had an uneasy and inconsistent direction, and both Johns were imbalanced. A temporary peace enabled the innovation of the early games that themselves show signs of bad dev cycles. Carmack proceeded to run id into the ground with increasingly irrelevant tech experiments that became increasingly impractical. Romero was obsessed with creative vision to the point of being unable to practically deal with such ambition without the astronomical resources required to realize it properly.

Rage and Daikatana are examples of their approaches at their worst. Good products in their own right IMO, but with clear and heavy flaws.

Pure creativity and pure productivity are not good for games, a delicate balance is required, and that balance is extremely difficult to achieve. id proper was never to last, and we should be thankful that they had the impact they did on the industry. Perhaps not the best team for simply producing sensible and quality games, but were great at showing the way in unexplored areas such as 3D and open community development.

TL;DR classic id sucked as a game company but ruled as innovators, and the latter has justly secured their legacy as important figures in the industry

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Sodaholic said:

Romero was more interested in exploring design and more subjective things, Carmack was more concerned with just the tech side of things, making good showcases and licensing out.

id Software always had an uneasy and inconsistent direction, and both Johns were imbalanced. A temporary peace enabled the innovation of the early games that themselves show signs of bad dev cycles. Carmack proceeded to run id into the ground with increasingly irrelevant tech experiments that became increasingly impractical. Romero was obsessed with creative vision to the point of being unable to practically deal with such ambition without the astronomical resources required to realize it properly.

Rage and Daikatana are examples of their approaches at their worst. Good products in their own right IMO, but with clear and heavy flaws.

Pure creativity and pure productivity are not good for games, a delicate balance is required, and that balance is extremely difficult to achieve. id proper was never to last, and we should be thankful that they had the impact they did on the industry. Perhaps not the best team for simply producing sensible and quality games, but were great at showing the way in unexplored areas such as 3D and open community development.

TL;DR classic id sucked as a game company but ruled as innovators, and the latter has justly secured their legacy as important figures in the industry

The Johns' dichotomy is truly deserving of their company name. I can't imagine this was lost on them when id Software was conceived.

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"Id software" is a better name than the alternative "The Brothel software".

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rdwpa said:

"Id software" is a better name than the alternative "The Brothel software".


Yup, Exactly my Friend.

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I find the fact that the thread about "waddling dumbass monsters" turned into a thread discussing id and their dev cycles.

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I like how the monsters are relatively stupid and harmless each on their own. It allows the mapper to send multiple ones against the player, without necessarily breaking balance or fairness. Even a non-hardcore player can be expected to deal with them, perhaps only being forced to change strategies based on his situation. Combined with good strategic placement of monsters, it makes Doom's gameplay the most fun, dynamic, challenging and satisfying at the same time - and it's always possible to invent new ways to do so.

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Sodaholic said:

I've never been able to unhear "IIIii'm your MAMA!" from its attack sound. what the fuck is wrong with me

It sounds more like 'HungryMOMMM' to me, but close enough. I always pictured the Mancs as being being hungry fucks so it... Sorta made sense.

I always thought a slight increase in speed relative to difficulty levels woulda been cool. Like, you have -fast with Nightmare, something between normal and fast at UV, and something even slower than normal at ITYTD - For example, ALL zombie enemies moving at the same speed as Mr. GreenHair.

Obviously the game is "perfect" as is, but I thought this woulda been a cool feature seeing as half the difficulty of NM comes from enemy speed.

EDIT: I think ID proper could have lasted a great deal longer if only they'd had management that gave them direction. In this instance they both needed to be told to "reel it in a tad" and if that had happened I think ID would still be a contender today. That said they've both got quite a few lucrative endeavors under their belts, definitely both success stories even considering the lowest points in their respective careers.

I miss the days when Triple A, big name gaming was "10 dudes programming some game tht has all their favorite shit in it".

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Doomkid said:

It sounds more like 'HungryMOMMM' to me, but close enough. I always pictured the Mancs as being being hungry fucks so it... Sorta made sense.

I always thought a slight increase in speed relative to difficulty levels woulda been cool. Like, you have -fast with Nightmare, something between normal and fast at UV, and something even slower than normal at ITYTD - For example, ALL zombie enemies moving at the same speed as Mr. GreenHair.

Obviously the game is "perfect" as is, but I thought this woulda been a cool feature seeing as half the difficulty of NM comes from enemy speed.


Well, If You can notice, the Mancubus has blood and flesh dripping down It's mouth, the fat fuck Is hungry for Space Marine flesh. =v=

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Doomkid said:

I always thought a slight increase in speed relative to difficulty levels woulda been cool. Like, you have -fast with Nightmare, something between normal and fast at UV, and something even slower than normal at ITYTD - For example, ALL zombie enemies moving at the same speed as Mr. GreenHair.

Obviously the game is "perfect" as is, but I thought this woulda been a cool feature seeing as half the difficulty of NM comes from enemy speed.


I always kinda wanted something like this when I was younger, but within the last 5-10 years I've changed my opinion on this.

I always liked the way the different difficulties were handled in Doom. It is unlike most other shooters, especially the more modern ones. Some Doom wads I've played had things like damage and health multipliers on the differing difficulties... and I kinda hated it. I didn't think I would mind it as much, but with the hitscan enemies it just became an exercise in peek-a-boo and praying I shot them first. To me -fast is always a more interesting way to ramp up the difficulty, but the speed the monsters move feels right to me as it is. Truthfully, I have to agree with Maes, playing Doom is like playing an Aztec God smashing people with a hammer, you're just so overpowered that the monsters (individually) feel weak. Thats why it's important to learn to use traps and clever set-ups in order to challenge the player in a fun way. Nobody wants to face room after room of monsters straight ahead, or traps that kill almost instantly. People like Doom for that super-fast player movement that makes navigating levels a breeze and avoiding projectiles fun.

Random side note: even in rpg's I've stopped going for leveling up damage in favor of longer, funner fights.

I suppose that's also why I consider the pistol to be the most underrated weapon in Doom. Until the chaingun, it's a nice little unit and makes for some interesting drawn-out fights.

*Edit*

I miss the days when Triple A, big name gaming was "10 dudes programming some game tht has all their favorite shit in it".

Granted, not AAA, but still popular enough to probably be an A:
What do you think MineCrap was ;p
Hell even Terraria, which is much better than that other one, prolly had less than 10 people workin on it while it made a name for itself.

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Fonze said:

I suppose that's also why I consider the pistol to be the most underrated weapon in Doom. Until the chaingun, it's a nice little unit and makes for some interesting drawn-out fights.

I cannot possibly comprehend how holding down a button for several more seconds would be any more fun. They're almost the same weapons, it's just one wastes less of your time.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say the pistol being so slow and shitty is punishment for wasting ammo for your better weapons. Then you get the chaingun and it can't even fulfill that role because they share the same ammo pool. Honestly, I preferred (console) Powerslave's ammo system far more.

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Jaxxoon R said:

I cannot possibly comprehend how holding down a button for several more seconds would be any more fun. They're almost the same weapons, it's just one wastes less of your time.


Eh, I like dodging. Perhaps one reason I hate hitscan enemies, lol. It's fun to take down a tough enemy with it sometimes; part of Doom is the early gameplay, it's just a shame that in the ADD generation it's been overlooked for the most part and when it is looked at it's seen as "boring..." Idk

Don't get me wrong, I never use the pistol after I get the chaingun, but it's still a nice little gun. Also, ever since counter-strike I've always had a preference for pistols, they get the job done just fine and I still kinda feel like I run faster with em ;p

Jaxxoon R said:

In fact, I'd go as far as to say the pistol being so slow and shitty is punishment for wasting ammo for your better weapons. Then you get the chaingun and it can't even fulfill that role because they share the same ammo pool. Honestly, I preferred (console) Powerslave's ammo system far more.


Lmfao! I looked at bullets as your last resort when I was younger, but now I use them too often to consider them my last resort. Now my last resort is cells. They make things too easy, lol. Honestly, I'd rather use a RL to take down a wall of skulls already in the process of trying to "skullterfuck" me ^^

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Fonze said:

part of Doom is the early gameplay, it's just a shame that in the ADD generation it's been overlooked for the most part and when it is looked at it's seen as "boring..."


Sorry for the incoming offtopic post, but this is worth the response.. Because Doom transcends multiple generations, it appeals to a variety of ages, a variety of gamers, and for a variety of reasons.. Two different people can like the 'same game' in very different ways.

Personally, some of the things I've always LOVED in Doom and Doom wads are dark, creeping tunnels, hidden passageways and secrets you really have to hunt for, the commonly hated "switch hunts" and many other almost D&D-like traits that just seem flat out lost on - excuse the term - "ADHD players". I've deliberately dumbed down some of my maps before release because I know that anything that requires more than approximately 5 seconds to think about/work out automatically recieves hate. I never dumb them down in real-time difficulty - That is to say, there's always going to be something attacking you from some direction, but I often remove all switch hunts, puzzles and many "necessary" secret passages before release. I don't know why people are so opposed to using their brain for just a few seconds and getting that "Indiana Jones" like satisfaction of finding some hidden passageway that allows you to progress to a new area, rather than having (and I mean this figuratively) neon signs that just say "HEY, NEXT ROOM IS IN HERE! DON'T WORRY ABOUT THINKING, WE'RE GUIDING YOU THROUGH!"

I guess I could create a mapset that uses these fun, classic exploration elements but I'd really have to stress that it was a different sort of Doom experience before release.

To cut the shit short: I don't mind if things take a little time, if anything that's more time I'm just enjoying myself doin some Doomin'. I don't need constant intensive sensory stimulation at all times. It's fun in bouts but I hate how that's become the "industry standard".

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Jaxxoon R said:

I cannot possibly comprehend how holding down a button for several more seconds would be any more fun. They're almost the same weapons, it's just one wastes less of your time.


You need to play more ammo conservation maps, where wasting that ONE, EXTRA BULLET that the chaingun uses will soon cause you to OUCHFACE and cry with BITTER and BLACK tears of REMORSE, when that imp you couldn't finish off will corner you and tear you a new one!

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Maes said:

You need to play more ammo conservation maps, where wasting that ONE, EXTRA BULLET that the chaingun uses will soon cause you to OUCHFACE and cry with BITTER and BLACK tears of REMORSE, when that imp you couldn't finish off will corner you and tear you a new one!


I gotta agree there, I've played a ton of Maps with barely NO ammo at all, a example Is one of Omegalore's Maps, but I'm someone that always plays on UV because I can accept the challenge DOOM will bring Me.

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Doomkid said:

I guess I could create a mapset that uses these fun, classic exploration elements but I'd really have to stress that it was a different sort of Doom experience before release.


I'm sure there would be an audience for such a wad. You should feel encouraged to make one.

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