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GoatLord

Is there any FPS easier to map for than Doom?

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I mean, there are editors that are easier for sure, if you're talking about earlier shooters like Wolfentein, where modding is stupidly restrictive and therefore pretty straightforward. But when you compare Doom to others shooters at the time and later, it seems like its competition is always a bit more cumbersome to make quality mods for, something which is evidenced by the sheer number of Doom mods out there. Are we essentially dealing with some sort of holy grail of modding, a game that is somehow so perfectly wedged between the 2nd and 3rd dimensions that its environment is universally friendly to modding? I can't think of a game that is as equally accessible for such purposes, although there are a shitload of Mario and Sonic mods/hacks.

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Unreal and Unreal Tournament are incredibly easy to map for; I would argue that they're actually easier in some ways (texturing and lighting are a ton easier IMO, and the trigger/action system is a lot more flexible and easier to use than the "linedef tag+action/sector tag" system).

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GoatLord said:

Are we essentially dealing with some sort of holy grail of modding, a game that is somehow so perfectly wedged between the 2nd and 3rd dimensions that its environment is universally friendly to modding?

I think yes. In Doom mapping, you only need one top-down editor view to be able to map reasonably efficiently, you're not restricted to any kind of tiles or prefabs, you can spend minimum effort on creating a playable map from scratch, and reworking an existing one also takes minimum effort.

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Depends what you're trying to do, really. In my experience it's (somewhat) inversely proportional to the map's complexity; Doom is certainly faster and easier when it comes to just slapping some stuff down on the grid and having a basic level ready to go, but creating vast structures and complex shapes is eventually much easier with newer, true-3D games which are designed with such features in mind.

Doom turns into some horrifying bastard mess of thousands and thousands of lines and sectors when high levels of detail comes into play within such structures, and even moreso if/when 3D floors are involved. That's when it becomes really aggravating to work with/around Doom's initial simplicity.

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Define "easy". Just by using a bunch of prefabs, even I could slap together a Doom 3 room in 5 minutes that is more detailed than any Doom map humanly possible. But does that mean Doom 3 is always easier to map for? Especially without "cheating" with prefabs?

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Cynical said:

Unreal and Unreal Tournament are incredibly easy to map for...

I found UT quite a bit harder than Doom to map for. In saying that, some of that will be due to (lack of) familiarity. I didn't do too much with it but it was getting easier as I gained experience. UT is certainly easier to map for than any of the Quake engines though (IMO).

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GoatLord said:

Are we essentially dealing with some sort of holy grail of modding, a game that is somehow so perfectly wedged between the 2nd and 3rd dimensions that its environment is universally friendly to modding?

Basically exactly this. Doom hits the sweet spot between freedom of creation and ease of use that allows folks to create super-kickass stuff in a sane amount of time.


As a simpler example, it's technically way easier to create a map for Wolf3D or ROTT, but the limits to what you can create are much more pronounced (though some folks have done some supercool stuff with Wolf -- you know who you are :P).

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Enjay said:

I found UT quite a bit harder than Doom to map for. In saying that, some of that will be due to (lack of) familiarity. I didn't do too much with it but it was getting easier as I gained experience. UT is certainly easier to map for than any of the Quake engines though (IMO).

Familiarity may well play a role; I learned to map for Unreal and UT before I started mapping for Doom.

I still find that sourced lighting is a million times faster and easier than sector based lighting is. Also, I'm able to add repetitive details (such as pilars along a wall or whatever) much faster in Unreal/Unreal Tournament by just making a brush and then add -> move brush -> add -> move brush -> add -> move brush etc. than anything I know how to do in Doom Builder 2, although that could just be because I've never been able to make sector copy/paste behave in a non-stupid manner.

Plus, it's impossible to beat the convenience of having both a 3D view and a top-down view on-screen at the same time.

Agreed that Quake is a nightmare to map for, though.

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Quake mapping is easy and quick. UT I never tried, but I tried using the Unreal 3 editor and I couldn't really get into it without reading about it.

Different things are easy or inconvenient in different editors. Things that are quick and easy in Quake is more time consuming in Doom. But I would say that it is easily a lot easier to map in Doom than in Quake. Simply because you got less technicalities to worry about (especially these days). And the map closes itself. In Quake you have to spend more effort in designing areas that you never really had to think too much about in Doom. They just sort of arrange themselves as a part of the overall design process.

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Quake Mapping may be difficult when you're trying to get into it, but Once you've sorted out the whole brushwork, lighting and trigger stuff, It becomes pretty easy to do.

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Trust Me, Duke3D mapping takes WAY more practice and work then DOOM, It's honestly a really, REALLY confusing program, trust Me. I've tried before and I did NOT know what to do at all, It's sad really.

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Breezeep said:

Did you look up any tutorials for the program?


I THINK I have once but I couldn't find anything, eitherway It'd still be confusing for Me, I'll stick with DOOM Mapping for now.

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I remember Counter Strike mapping being, for the most part, straightforward. I only made a very basic map though (two levels and some stairs, could be recreated in Doom with ease) and this was years ago now..

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Doomkid said:

I remember Counter Strike mapping being, for the most part, straightforward. I only made a very basic map though (two levels and some stairs, could be recreated in Doom with ease) and this was years ago now..


I wasn't really Into Counter-Strike (never played It anyway xD), all the Map Makers I knew were DOOM's, The Build Engine's, and Half-Life's.

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Tritnew said:

I wasn't really Into Counter-Strike (never played It anyway xD), all the Map Makers I knew were DOOM's, The Build Engine's, and Half-Life's.


CS was the HL engine

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Ralphis said:

CS was the HL engine


Ah, Right. Forgot about that, Thanks for the little reminder there I suppose. Also need to note, Never used the Half-Life Mapping thing either.

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Seconding Unreal. 14 year old me managed to figure how to make functional UT maps, and that is saying a lot. I am definitely not cut out for mapping.

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ClumsyDoomer said:

Wolfenste... uhm. No.
So far, Doom is the simpliest and most interesting game I've ever mapped for.


Pfft, I don't think Wolfenstein has Mapping Software, Right?

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ClumsyDoomer said:

No, there are many Slade-like programs for Wolf - FloEdit, ChaosEdit, etc. ChaosEdit can even edit music.
http://www.wolfenstein3d.co.uk/utilities.htm
Wolfenstein is way too limited though. Doom is a lot better to map for.


Ah, You learn something new everyday (or night where I live), Thanks! And Yea, Id really Improved with Mapping and Modding when It comes to DOOM.

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There's ZED and JkEdit for Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight and its expansion; Mysteries Of the Sith.

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Tritnew said:

Trust Me, Duke3D mapping takes WAY more practice and work then DOOM, It's honestly a really, REALLY confusing program, trust Me. I've tried before and I did NOT know what to do at all, It's sad really.

It's certainly a good idea to have the documentation at hand. Back then, you would print them out, but I guess, a notepad in another window would do nowadays.
I think, the Build editor was much more advanced then DEU, which was pretty much the defacto standard in Doom editing back then.
Interestingly though, very little has changed in the Build editor over the years while Doom editors evolved a lot since the 90's.

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LogicDeLuxe said:

It's certainly a good idea to have the documentation at hand. Back then, you would print them out, but I guess, a notepad in another window would do nowadays.
I think, the Build editor was much more advanced then DEU, which was pretty much the defacto standard in Doom editing back then.
Interestingly though, very little has changed in the Build editor over the years while Doom editors evolved a lot since the 90's.


Yeah, the Build Engine's Mapping Program hasn't been touched In YEARS, I do know a friend who's a big fan of Duke Nukem and He still maps for It, He makes pretty damn great maps, Specially the Painkiller based one, You can check them out If you like, just type down "Duke64" or something on Google or Steam and check the Duke3D Workshop and You'll see them, They're quite Impressive.

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I did a bit of Duke editing many years ago and I remember finding it more difficult than Doom but not hugely so. Again, like with UT, most of my difficulties came from a lower level of familiarity with the process and the engine and (from what I remember) there were quite a few quirks and special keystrokes in the editor that I never used enough to become fluent with.

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Basically, no. Minecraft also deserves a mention though.

Don't destroy your found monster spawners. Turn them into gameplay & harvest stations, taking advantage of each creature's behavior and AI.

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I've mapped for a handful of games and Doom is easily my favorite, and definitely the one I come back to most often. Level creation is simple, it could hardly be easier to lay down sectors and things. Yet the level design manages not to suffer. Doom maps have the capacity to surprise in a way you don't get with other games where the maps are built from such simple components. Sometimes Doom maps even feel to me more alive than true 3D maps of other games. It's like these particular constraints we work under nurture an essential creativity in a way having greater freedom doesn't.

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meapineapple said:

I've mapped for a handful of games and Doom is easily my favorite, and definitely the one I come back to most often. Level creation is simple, it could hardly be easier to lay down sectors and things. Yet the level design manages not to suffer. Doom maps have the capacity to surprise in a way you don't get with other games where the maps are built from such simple components. Sometimes Doom maps even feel to me more alive than true 3D maps of other games. It's like these particular constraints we work under nurture an essential creativity in a way having greater freedom doesn't.


Yea, DOOM's just more fun and easier, but Oh Boy, those Maps back In the early 90's when DOOM was around, I've played them and the only one that didn't suck with a shitty-looking (SHITTY LOOKING name, Is all) was cheese.WAD for Uiltmate DOOM, You should check It Out, It's honestly pretty good. xD;

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