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Koko Ricky

Is there any FPS easier to map for than Doom?

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BaronOfStuff said:

Doom turns into some horrifying bastard mess of thousands and thousands of lines and sectors when high levels of detail comes into play within such structures, and even moreso if/when 3D floors are involved.

Of course, but the tech was never designed for anything more than 90s level of detail. Not like you didn't already know that, but it's worth noting still.

I kinda like 90s level of detail so long as the lighting, shapes and texturing are neat and well balanced. It's much easier to read, doesn't have annoying gameplay snags and the experience isn't anything less for it.

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It's possible to have kickass aesthetics on the level of more complex games while still sticking to 90's-level complexity (SiD, anyone? BTSX if I can toot our own collective horn? :P ). 'Course, that takes practice, though you can get some hella speedy results from it.

[Insert link to "aesthetics vs detail" video here or somesuch.]

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Tritnew said:

Trust Me, Duke3D mapping takes WAY more practice and work then DOOM, It's honestly a really, REALLY confusing program, trust Me. I've tried before and I did NOT know what to do at all, It's sad really.


It's not massively more difficult. Using the editor itself is simple enough, it's the documentation. Using it just requires a lot of reading. It's very old school.

I made maps for it when i was 13. I could utilize Duke3D's editor better than i could Doom at the time. This was before Doom Builder showed up and then things changed.

Duke3D's editor was also prone to bugging the fuck out and crashing/corrupting on making even just one mistake. You had to be pretty careful. It's definitely not hard to use though.

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Wolfenstein is definitely easier to map for than Doom, and faster too. However, the editors are nowhere near as good as Doom Builder and SLADE3 and if you use advanced features like floor/ceiling textures or ECWolf triggers, the implementation in the Wolf map format is obnoxiously hacky.

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Woolie Wool said:

Wolfenstein is definitely easier to map for than Doom, and faster too. However, the editors are nowhere near as good as Doom Builder and SLADE3 and if you use advanced features like floor/ceiling textures or ECWolf triggers, the implementation in the Wolf map format is obnoxiously hacky.


Eitherway, I prefer DOOM mapping over Duke3D mapping, even though You could make Maps that would greatly beat DOOM maps.

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I found making maps for Duke Nukem 3D to be quite easy. At least when it comes to making architecture, monster placement and stuff. However, the challenging bit is assigning the Sector Effectors to make certain objects function in a way, like doors, teleporters, underwater areas, subways, etc. It can also be frustrating since Build tends to crash, so my advice here is to save each time you create something so that you won't lose your hard work. Least I don't find it hard since I've mainly convert some original Doom maps for Duke Nukem 3D and keep them as close to the original design as possible.

I would really like to map for Doom one day, though.

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Tritnew said:

Never used the Half-Life Mapping thing either.

Valve Hammer editor ( aka WorldCraft ), It is really not that hard to use . Just some basic drawning and texturing . And a correct game cfg .

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Tritnew said:

Eitherway, I prefer DOOM mapping over Duke3D mapping, even though You could make Maps that would greatly beat DOOM maps.

Any particular examples?

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Tritnew said:

Hmm, I guess the DNF 2013 Mod could be a good example.


And WG Realms 2...wait, they're a bit overkill I guess... :P

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I've mapped for Doom, Blood, Quake and Half-Life.
Of those Doom is by far the easiest and quickest to map for absolutely no contest.

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Da Werecat said:

And where's the striking dominance over Doom projects?


Not that It does nowadays, considering that Duke beated DOOM when It comes to mapping back then, DOOM Mapping Is alot more advanced since You can make 3D Floors and such nowadays, so Yeah.

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I was hoping it would have been Dark Forces, but that engine made me raise an eyebrow. Floating platforms, bridges, map layers in the editors, the illusion of destructible walls, etc.

While making a full blown functional 3D map for Crysis was as easy as dragging your mouse over the screen to see the world take shape, and placing prefab objects on that terrain... making a playable, pointless, endless map is easy but not fully completed.

So for me doom is the easiest compared to anything else (many editors) i ever tried or used taking note that its equally easy to make a complete level... no matter how ugly, simple, or weird.

Da Werecat said:

And where's the striking dominance over Doom projects?


Room over room, colored sector lighting, water, destructible objects, the ability to simulate architecture being destroyed, etc. the games using a hacked up BUILD engine like shadow warior, blood, and duke3D contain multiple examples on their own... and all of that with the original 90's engine.

Domination possibilities ; 100%

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playerlin said:

And WG Realms 2...wait, they're a bit overkill I guess... :P


Huh, Never heard of WG Realms 2. Gonna have to check It out.

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FireFish said:

Room over room, colored sector lighting, water, destructible objects, the ability to simulate architecture being destroyed, etc. the games using a hacked up BUILD engine like shadow warior, blood, and duke3D contain multiple examples on their own... and all of that with the original 90's engine.

Except we're not in the 90's anymore.

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Da Werecat said:

Except we're not in the 90's anymore.


Indeed. But sometimes things need to be kept inside of their own timeframe. Unless one wants to compare Eduke32 to Gzdoom... which would need unbiased heavily experienced extreme mappers going to the max... while Build does water, and the illusion of destruction without extra's.

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FireFish said:

But sometimes things need to be kept inside of their own timeframe.

Okay.

Build engine wasn't available in 1993, while the Doom engine was. 100% domination. :>

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Da Werecat said:

Okay.

Build engine wasn't available in 1993, while the Doom engine was. 100% domination. :>


Hahaha.
Yes indeed, yes indeed. :)

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Da Werecat said:

Okay.

Build engine wasn't available in 1993, while the Doom engine was. 100% domination. :>

Don't you mean doomination? :P

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First game (well, engine I suppose really) was the Freescape engine used in Driller - now that was a mind blowing game on the ZX Spectrum back in the day. The 3D Construction Kit was good fun to use and reasonably simple.

I tried modding for UT but really didn't get into it at all.

Doom... Started with DEU in the old DOS days and haven't looked back. I would've killed for an editor like DoomBuilder back then. Still once you got your head round how DEU wanted you to construct your spaces it was enjoyable.

For me, Doom is the easiest game I've created levels for... Although creating custom courses for Jaguar XJ220 on the Amiga was simplicity but then its not an FPS!

Dave

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Phendrena said:

First game (well, engine I suppose really) was the Freescape engine used in Driller - now that was a mind blowing game on the ZX Spectrum back in the day. The 3D Construction Kit was good fun to use and reasonably simple.

I tried modding for UT but really didn't get into it at all.

Doom... Started with DEU in the old DOS days and haven't looked back. I would've killed for an editor like DoomBuilder back then. Still once you got your head round how DEU wanted you to construct your spaces it was enjoyable.

For me, Doom is the easiest game I've created levels for... Although creating custom courses for Jaguar XJ220 on the Amiga was simplicity but then its not an FPS!

Dave


I HEAVILY agree on that.

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Phendrena said:

First game (well, engine I suppose really) was the Freescape engine used in Driller - now that was a mind blowing game on the ZX Spectrum back in the day. The 3D Construction Kit was good fun to use and reasonably simple.


I bought the 3D Construction Kit for the Atari ST when it came out. I was a huge fan of the game Castle Master at the time, and wanted to make something similar. I never did of course. I remember the construction kit came with it's own VHS tutorial tape, so yeah, we're talking a long time ago.

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I can map with Mapster32 easily enough (I honestly wish GZDoom could do that sector layering thing that eDuke32 can do where you just extend them upwards and downwards, so much more convenient than 3D floors) but I could never figure out how to get my own stuff into eDuke32 like my own enemies, weapons, behaviors, all that stuff to really make it my own. Map making is easier with Mapster32 in my opinion but GZDoom is drastically easier to figure out if you want to go beyond that and make your own game.

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I'm finding mapster a bit tough myself, but I am just trying it for the first time. I also have run into a couple annoying bugs.

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The first game I ever tryed to map for was Quake II and it was pain for the first day, but since I read manuals things became pretty easy. Then I tryed to map in Doom someday and it was so intuitive and easy that I almost mapped a shitty megawad.
But trully the best mapping game is Quake with Trenchbroom, THE Quake editor. Just try it.

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What was the name of the forst 3rd party Quake editor in the works during Quake's development? i remember it boasted that it would be easier to make maps for than Doom. T... something. Didn't quite deliver and was quickly superseeded by Worldcraft and Radient... "Thread"?

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