3 WADs That Influenced You the Most

[gemini09]

I'd say GothicDM, for its uber-details, and also The Darkening 2, for its really stylish design.

Obsidian said:

Suspended in Dusk - Espi's sheer mastery of vanilla was something that really stood out for me and is to this day something I try to emulate

Ah, that reminds me of Espi's immortal Eternal DOOM Map27 - it's just about DOOM design perfection, but regrettably excluding the weapon and monster types, IMO (I'd much rather like to see Heretic/ Hexen-type monsters in it!).

On that note, I'd like to see a community effort along the lines of that ZDoom super-map that got passed around to multiple mappers, where we use said Espi map, change weaponry and beastiary to Heretic/ Hexen, and make a really immersive and long adventure out of the map, with scripting, cut-scenes, and the whole nine yards that the map's design and probably efforts deserve in recognition.

[esselfortium]

I feel it would not exactly be a respectful tribute to have a community project totally replace Espi's gameplay and pad out his already-complete map with scripted cutscenes.

[baja blast rd.]

Cynical said:

... the Arch-Vile/Revenant synergy ...

Can you elaborate on this? I'd ask you to elaborate on every sentence in this post -- it's packed with interesting topics -- but a more reasonable request will do. :)

[Ribbiks]

Disturbia - I love everything by D-D, as well as nearly every map made in the same vein (many darkwave maps, darkreaver maps). A lot of D-D encounters operated on a similar formula: 2/3-vector reveal, ultra-claustrophobia, visible tele closets, some perched mobs blocking the way out, etc, but he still managed to coax a lot of interesting variations on it. It was sometimes a shame that the best strategy (i.e. for demo purposes, where reliability is most important) was to "escape" each trap, but it seems that in general players enjoy thinking they outsmarted something, and I guess there's always the option to play it legit, so little harm done I suppose. Anyhow, Disturbia is probably my favorite D-D map, though Beesong or Grime are close seconds. When you have super-dick gameplay it's crucial to keep engaging the player with either clever setups, memorable gimmicks, or an oppressive and immersive atmosphere that keeps you wondering what horrible atrocities will be next. Imo this map has all 3, as well as a definite sense of progression and adventure as you gradually make progress further north into the map. Not flawless, but I'm still tempted to call it a masterpiece. I will continue to plagiarize his plagiarizations until we're all playing 6-degrees-of-malcolm-sailor.

Sunder - Pretty much the jumping-off point for the visual style of many of my maps: Focused texture selections, large imposing architecture, excessive abuse of layering, I fell down that rabbit-hole long ago and I'm probably here for awhile. I began by shamelessly ripping things off, the famous "lines in the floor" from obsidian nightmare, as an example. But I'd like to think I have my own shticks by now that might someday stand on their own, we'll see. Anyhow, I_G didn't just make maps, he made "worlds" (as phml once put it) with very distinct atmospheres and play-style. These maps (moreso than any other pwad I've played) feel incredibly alien and surreal to me, despite using stock mechanics and largely stock textures. It doesn't feel like a doom map comfortably designed for convenient traversal, instead it's like doomguy tripped and fell into a abstract and oppressive dimension and now must tip-toe his way around complex dioramas filled with hellspawn. He is not welcome here, and the maps are not designed for his convenience: The architecture is often obtrusive, the progressions are often obscure/annoying (platforming, switch-hunts, inescapable pits, hrnnnng), and the slaughter-style gameplay is pretty much as far from sleek and streamlined as you can get. It hits all the "wrong" notes in the right way for me. Attitude and atmosphere alone carry it into my top mapsets. Gameplay-wise, lots of interesting play-styles are explored (e.g 01: sparse, campy, 05: yeah... you know, 06: hectic, tight, "surrounded", 07: spacious, threats from very specific directions, 08: spacious, "invasion"-esque, 09: tight, horribly tight, 10: endurance/grind, 13/14: tele claustrophobia incarnate) and lots of defacto slaughter designs are presented (e.g. fights like the hk room in map02 or opening room of map06 that rely on consistent dodging ability, fights like the pentultimate room in map07 that demonstrate carving out space to move is more important than immediately focusing high-damage enemies, fights like the PE swarm in map13 where finding the best place to inflict RL splash while not getting overwhelmed, and there are many more that I find 'mechanically' interesting). Definitely has a lot of easily hateable and not-my-cup-of-tea attributes, particularly if you drink the fotm "what objectively makes a good map" kool-aid :p, but next to D-D maps it's the most fun I've had with this game and it has had a huge impact on my decision to return to doom mapping, so it gets #2 slot no question.

not sure about #3. Might say scythe2 but really only maps 21+, minus the sloppy m28/30. those have been very influential in how I design small cutesy maps. If it was 10 years ago I'd probably say requiem or par_lutz, which planted the seeds for my obsession with quake-ish and void aesthetics, respectively. if there was an iconic tod/ggg map I might point to that as an influence for challenge-oriented mapping. But whatever, I only have 2 good answers.

[Cynical]

EDIT: This is in response to rdwpa. Ribbiks ninja'd me.

Think about how their attacks interact.

The Vile, when it attacks, sits still and forces you to move behind cover to break LoS. With proper arena design (read: areas of cover that are suitably small), this means that the player is only allowed very little (or possibly no) discretionary movement during the duration of the slow-fire attack.

Meanwhile, let's take a look at the Revenant's attack. The Revenant's homing fireball effectively controls *all* space in the arena, but is easily evaded... as long as the player keeps moving. But, remember what the Vile's slow-fire doesn't let us do freely? Furthermore, while the Vile can't move while he's casting a spell, the Revs can move freely while the Vile casts, allowing them to advance on the player with their great foot-speed and threaten their dangerous melee attacks -- or, at the least, get to more favorable positions "behind" or "beside" the player's cover, to make evading the missiles more difficult.

This demanded contradiction in player movement (gotta run to avoid the Rev fireball, gotta sit still to avoid the slow-fire) can be partially negated by timing ducking into cover to avoid the slow-fire at the last possible moment, but doing even *this* requires that the player modify their strafe pattern when the Vile starts its attack, possibly even slowing down to time their duck into cover... which, of course, gives the homing fireballs a chance to gain some ground on the player.

Finally, Revs make very natural "meat shields" for the Vile; they're faster than the nobility, so the Vile has less of a tendency to run away from them and end up on his own unsupported, and while they're not as sturdy as an HK, they've still got a decent amount of hitpoints to soak some hits.

[CapNapalm]

I'm really surprised at the amount Sunder is getting mentioned.

[Cynical]

CapNapalm said:

I'm really surprised at the amount Sunder is getting mentioned.

I'm not.

Whether you like it or not (I'd say it certainly has been surpassed; Sunlust, in particular, just stomps it into the dirt), the wad was a watershed in terms of scope and setpiece scenario design. And that's not even mentioning the visual style that it pretty much created that has been oft-imitated ever since.

[Noiser]

Memento Mori II is one of my favorites, it has everything that I like in Doom: simple but decent graphics and maps focused on variety: linear, non-linear, open-wided, closed. Basically, all of them have a adventurous feel that I like. Plus, custom textures that doesn't looks decontextualized from the default set and a great music.

[gaspe]

Eternal Doom: Lutz pretty much summarize my thoughts :) it's a wad that I find to be really inspiring. It's plenty of awesome visual touches and there are lots of interesting tricks.

Alien Vendetta: one the first pwads I have played. Probably most of the impression was due to that, but is one of the wads I'm most fond of.

BTSX E1: I can't say I started to map becuase of this wad, but it was the first one which I started to give a more deeper look on how the things were done (visuals, gameplay...).

[Tritnew]

Satan's Hell Hole: Just the design and overall concept Is bizarre, there's even a freakin' McDonalds based on DOOM In It, It Inspires Me to make a extremely bizarre WAD one of these days.

Scythe 2: Probably one of my favorite MegaWADs, though I never got to complete It, but I love the design overall and might do something similar to It one of these days, as In Inspired.

Slaughterfest 2012: I always love these kinda WADs that give You a good challenge, expect this one comes with good design and overall pretty good levels. Only problem Is that this would take someone forever to complete since It has over 35 levels.

[darkreaver]

Alien Vendetta: this is a mapset with many different mappers, but mostly the works by Andy and Malde are/were huge sources to inspiration for me. Big maps with lots of atmospheric lighting.

Speed of Doom: this is probably my biggest source of inspiration, I guess. Especially the maps by darkwave. It really sparked my interest in "weird" places and settings, and I really fell in love with techbases again; just put them in cool places and they are ok ;) (Dreamscape etc.)

Disturbia: I've stolen so much from D-D its not even funny. As Ribbiks said, Grime is all the way up there too, and also his maps in Dark Resolution. I like making maps with "fuck you"-gameplay, but when it comes to his Dark Resolution maps its the setting/theme/atmosphere thats the deal for me. Actually it is in all the mentioned maps. And that reminds me of Elysion. Fuck, I just gotta say D-D works in general, but Disturbia is at the top.

There are many more sources of inspiration, but the topic is top 3, so. Just gotta mention Sunder and all of Ribbiks' work. Its really inspirational even though I dont map in the same style. Also HR2 always was a great source of inspiration (some of the maps, that is). Aaaaand Eternal. Aaaand Gusta stuff from PL2. Yeah.

[mrthejoshmon]

1: Icarus.

This wad was the first pwad I had ever seen for Doom. That and the fact that I adore this style of mapping from the 90's. I love almost every map in the set (except hydroponics, fuck hydroponics).

2: TNT.

I love TNT, I love the music and the scenery the most out of it though which often leads to imitation and replication in my maps. I also map more for TNT than Doom 2.

3: EGYPT.wad.

Found with TEK.wad, MANSION.wad and a few others included in a .zip file on /idgames, I absolutely love this map. In my opinion it is one of the best wads ever made and I try to imitate the charming minimal style in its detail. I believe the pack was called "mark's maps" or something.

EDIT: here they are http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?file=levels/doom2/m-o/marksdm2.zip They may not be 90's maps actually...

[Joshy]

Plutonia was the key influence for me, since it was all I played before I even played Doom 2, so it was frequently a point of reference when I was learning how to map, for both the design/texturing and gameplay aspects.

The other two are obvious answers, the Scythe series and Alien Vendetta since they were the earliest WADs I played when I discovered the beautiful world of doom modding.

For the other influences, whether minor or major included: Darkwave0000's maps, some of Death-Destiny's maps, Kama Sutra, HR1/2, Unholy Realms, NDCP1/2, CC1/2/3, BTSX, and Plutonia 2.

[SleepyVelvet]

Doom 2 - played it a lot as a kid, had more than a blast exploring the maps and abstract environments. the explorative aspect of doom probably doesn't hold up as much as it did in the 90's, but i've always been a fan of it, especially the 3d maze shenanigans that a lot of people hate from episode 2 of doom 2.

Resurgence - This is the first mapset that i've played that forced me to play very aggressively, or else you wouldn't stand a chance. This mapset changed my default playstyle quite a bit. I die a lot more now on normal maps, but I can hold my own on the hard stuff.

I dunno about a third one. maybe Cyberdreams because it re-enforces my love for puzzly gimmick things. I've also been getting into the cramped challenge-map style maps that are out there; maybe i'm a masochist, i dunno.

[Enderkevin13]

Town Infection 11 - Mainly because of the gameplay and story, as well as map design.

UACMN2 - Mostly because of the difficulty that I usually don't feel when playing.

Alpha/Delta Invasion - Mostly because of how the maps were designed and constructed, as well as a balance of custom content and regular content.

[CorSair]

Deus Vult I (and II)
I played few megawads, mostly the old ones, like Requiem, Memento Mori, Alien Vendetta et cetera, along with small map packs and single levels I grabbed from /idgames. But nothing prepared me to this package. Huge monster counts (slaughtermap style was pretty new to me at this point) impressive visuals, especially the latter part... Of course, it's not better one for gameplay to someone else, but the visuals when you see it first time can create everlasting impressions. This was first spike to try mapping.

Hell Ground
After I found out about Cacowards, I decided to take a good look of the stuff that was in there. Stumbled upon this, decided to load up, and it was just like when I played Deus Vult, except in much stronger sense. This was probably when it pushed me into mapping.

Valhalla
For when it came to ZDoom aspects, this was probably most influential to me. And probably first ZDoom map I played to the boot, I think. I even studied the map in-game when I first played it, I think.

[Demonologist]

Cynical said:

Whether you like it or not (I'd say it certainly has been surpassed; Sunlust, in particular, just stomps it into the dirt)

Hmm, not really a valid comparison I'd say. The only maps in Sunlust that can be compared to Sunder are 28, 30 and, to a somewhat lesser degree, 24. And the others are actually small (to medium at best) action-packed maps that can even hardly be called slaughtermaps most of the time, a bunch of exceptions and occasional slaughterous scenarios in generally non-slaughter canvas aside, as opposed to Sunder's huge scale and mass murderfest all over the place. While aesthetically some parallels may be drawn here and there - these two PWADs are quite different in their nature.

[SavageCorona]

I got feedback on my ASS19 map saying I was channeling 50 shades of graytall but really I was more going for the feel from my first map I ever made. It's just a coinkydink that they're similar. I also take more influence from Duke 3D maps than any Doom maps so I guess I'm satan.

[CapNapalm]

Cynical said:

the wad was a watershed in terms of scope and setpiece scenario design. And that's not even mentioning the visual style that it pretty much created that has been oft-imitated ever since.

But that's simply not true. A lot of wads have had this design approach before, Scythe 1 and 2, Hell Revealed 2, Deus Vult to name a few and probably a couple earlier ones I'm forgetting.

[j4rio]

Cynical said:

(I'd say it certainly has been surpassed; Sunlust, in particular, just stomps it into the dirt)

I think sunder doesn't show its author's traits, if there are any. I_G was basically inventing traits and stuck with them only throughout one single map. In my opinion it's the most varied almost-megawad by one guy so far.

[dannebubinga]

It is VERY true what Cynical said.

The gameplay in Scythe series, HR2 and Deus Vult is much more "free-for-all" combat compared to Sunders setpiece encounters. Sunder took the grandness of these mentioned wads and multiplied it by 10, making it a very unique experience that affected me more than any wad I've ever played. It doesn't matter which wad was first. Sunders' visuals and gameplay stood out and you can clearly see lots of mappers (myself included) shamelessly copying Sunders' style, 5 years later. Compare that to how many mappers you see copying Deus Vult or HR2 nowadays. Scythe on the other hand, I wouldn't even compare with Sunder. It's much more approachable for a lesser skilled player with it's small maps and occasional slaughter encounters. Not saying that Scythe is bad (I love that wad as much as anyone else), it's just not the same thing as Sunder at all. Sunder is a huge middle finger up your ass. No skill levels, no secrets, inescapable pits and 1 hour long uv-max times (I came while typing this).

Cynical is just telling us how Sunder affected his mapping and playing, he's not bullshitting or making stuff up.

[Demonologist]

@ j4rio: Heh, how about precarious platforming above inescapable pits, timed one-by-one switch reveals and the whole "series of arenas that lock the player in" approach?

[NaturalTvventy]

1. UAC_DEAD.wad

2.INFERNO.WAD - Lutz

3. ZPack

[j4rio]

Demonologist said:

@ j4rio: Heh, how about precarious platforming above inescapable pits, timed one-by-one switch reveals and the whole "series of arenas that lock the player in" approach?

I have platforming associated only with map 5, "series of arenas that lock player in" with map 7 and timed one-by-one switches are most likely just a sign that gazebo didn't really know much about boom specific mapping actions, which wouldn't be too hard to remedy if he was still around.

[Demonologist]

The stuff you associate with single maps is much more evident and widespread, but whatever.

[baja blast rd.]

Sunder levels have a lot of motif w/ variation–style design. One sort of principle or feature is chosen, and then it's repeated elsewhere in various (usually differently sized) forms. E.g., in map05, the thin crossing platforms rising from the lava are "baby" forms of the main platforms, with a similar jagged square pattern. And the giant floating thingamajig in the northwest is the elite, ascendant (literally) form. And of course, there's map04, with those unspeakably frightening crushers. Do those given anyone else the willies? Especially the LARGE crusher. It's like a desolate fractal landscape, something out of a nightmare.

I feel like if you took the right sort of architectural feature from a good map and had it mate with itself over and over again, what you'd get is a Sunder-type map.

Cynical said:

EDIT: This is in response to rdwpa. Ribbiks ninja'd me.

Think about how their attacks interact.

...

Thanks for this!

[j4rio]

Demonologist said:

The stuff you associate with single maps is much more evident and widespread, but whatever.

Maybe, but even so, my point was, you wouldn't be able to identify those maps are by one single author if you didn't know beforehand. And don't tell me you had a problem to distinguish authors in sunlust.

[Demonologist]

I have to confess - I was having a hard time telling who made what in e1 of Sunlust when I first played it (valid for the very first closed beta), its maps where just so organic together, pretty much a seamless adventure. But with e2 this feeling got washed away, yeah, with 11 and onwards the difference became quite noticeable. That's funny, now that I think of it.

That's quite an off-topic though, I'd better stop at this point.

[FearTheReaper]

S.T.R.A.I.N. - because awesome music, hero being drugs induced psychopath and creative levels with modified monsters.

Obituary - whole levels design and progress, new graphics for weapons.

TNT - semi-realistic design, neat music and very unique memorable levels especially third episode.

[sudo459]

Nova 2 and Valiant, which made me stop playing doom altogether because I thought I was just bored with the game. Then Alien Vendetta, which made me change my mind.