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GoatLord

What's new in music?

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It seems to me that no new root genres are springing up. Root genres of music would include rock and roll, hip hop, punk, electronica, etc. These are base genres from which endless branching sub-genres emerge from. In the last few decades, numerous sub-genres have emerged which sometimes appear to be novel (such as "indie" music) but really belong to a a root genre ("punk," in this case, which paved the way for a lot of modern Caucasian/Western music). Another example would be dubstep, a sub-genre of dub which itself is related to ultimately to reggae music. This idea of new root genres which create an entirely new set of aesthetics for modern music seems to have died out somewhat, unless I'm mistaken. Everything I've heard, even in the DIY/avant garde scenes, seems closely related to an already well-defined genre.

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GoatLord said:

In the last few decades, numerous sub-genres have emerged which sometimes appear to be novel (such as "indie" music) but really belong to a a root genre

The carefully-constructed hierarchies you've sorted all your music into are a subjective, artificial construct and do not actually exist in any real sense.

New types of music are being created all the time, it just seems like they aren't because you understand everything new in terms of what you've already heard.

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I quoted this part to secure its existence for my response ;

GoatLord said:

numerous sub-genres have emerged which sometimes appear to be novel (such as "indie" music) but really belong to a a root genre...


Indie also existed in the 80's... Indie is music being released under self-management, which means there is no publisher pulling the strings. Eventually this evolved into people looking at Indie music as rock or metal because most Indie bands where in those genres well before the 1990's.

This also explains "Indie games", which SHOULD be games released under self-management to stores and end locations without a publisher pulling the shots.

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I like what I like. Genres can suck it. Except for Hip Hop. That stuff had class in the 80s and the 90s. Then it turned into complete shit. Granted, what passes for rap or hip hop no days doesn't really seem to have a point to it. Although you'll find it in all "genres," rap/hh has become blatantly shallow and for the money. I think Soulja Boy even made a movie once where he said that he didn't give a shit about making decent music. He just pandered and sold out and laughed about it. To be fair, with the money he made, he probably did it right.

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I use genres to find music but i don't rely on them to identify them them accurately. 9 times out of 10 they're wrong or they're part of a sub-genre or a 'collection' of genres that almost render the labelling system pointless, i mean the system's there so we know what is what but it seems to be very subjective anyway.

Static-X, a metal band, labelled themselves as "death disco" because they believed it's what their music was. Why? Just because they wanted to. It's their music after all.

There's also the whole Djent genre that is fairly new(ish) that is represented as complex chords mixed with frets 0, 1 and the occasional 2 every now and again. Bands in this genre try far too much to represent it. A standard Djent band must have planets as an album cover and lyrics about the system, machines, or again... Planets.

I like bands in the 'Djent' genre, but i'd like them to be progressive and not identical, that's not what music should be. People say pop sounds like generic identical shit but some metal bands do too, and it's on purpose for christ sake.

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I understand why we have genres but they're all just scales and notes when you break it down. It's just about arranging them in different ways, playing them in different speeds, using different tones and layering your tracks in creative and interesting ways. As Fraggle said, new music/new sounding music is popping up all the time, but also keep in mind we're spoiled for choice these days, which is oddly limiting, when viewed from a psychological persepctive.

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The day that every single combination of physical features, personality traits, voices, backstories, and journeys that a character could possibly have is used up.

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fraggle said:

The carefully-constructed hierarchies you've sorted all your music into are a subjective, artificial construct and do not actually exist in any real sense.

New types of music are being created all the time, it just seems like they aren't because you understand everything new in terms of what you've already heard.


Could you give me a few examples? I actively seek out new music, but all I find are various branches of electronic and rock, or Westernized version of ethnic sounds.

As to the "artificial construct" argument...While I do agree that it is my subjective interpretation of separations between music styles, I try to base it as closely as I can on research. I didn't link indie to punk arbitrarily, for instance, or because of something a friend said. I based it on the fact that the basic elements of indie music ultimately derive from the post-punk and alternative scenes which emerged ultimately from punk. However, every single one of these terms has a floaty definition is not universally shared, so I understand the futility in my attempt to construct something more objective. But like I said, I try to base it on anthropological investigation more than anything, which I would like to think yields at least an appreciable level of clarity.

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Clonehunter said:

I like what I like. Genres can suck it. Except for Hip Hop. That stuff had class in the 80s and the 90s. Then it turned into complete shit. Granted, what passes for rap or hip hop no days doesn't really seem to have a point to it. Although you'll find it in all "genres," rap/hh has become blatantly shallow and for the money. I think Soulja Boy even made a movie once where he said that he didn't give a shit about making decent music. He just pandered and sold out and laughed about it. To be fair, with the money he made, he probably did it right.


You are not looking in the right places then.

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Six said:

Static-X, a metal band, labelled themselves as "death disco" because they believed it's what their music was. Why? Just because they wanted to. It's their music after all.


Static-X clearly doesn't know what death in death metal means.

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Glaice said:

Static-X clearly doesn't know what death in death metal means.


Death disco.

Anyway the whole thing is entirely subjective, death disco could mean anything. If we were to go into technicalities, it's not a 'real' genre people would argue. Even their fans refer to Static-X as industrial metal.

Mudvayne wanted to be referred as mathematical metal in an interview, because they believed their music had a level of complexity that apparently warranted such a label. Again, people just call them Nu-metal.

It's almost as if people know music better than their creators, or that music has to be defined/categorised 'correctly'. Is it right for it to be this way? Who knows.

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i'm just gonna say that people losing their shit over ordering specific genres, in such an airtight manner i'm wondering if they're really suffering from asphyxiation after doing so, is just frankly both hilarious and shrug-worthy at the same time. BUT THIS ISN'T ASSBALLS MUSIC, IT'S CONTEMPORARY ASSBALLS MUSIC YOU GODDAMN, IGNORANT FUCKER.

genres are just groups of different types of entertainment. they're not the be-all, end-all you have to adhere to. there's no need to blow a fuse over how this is not "this" kind of music but it's "that" kind of music. just chill and listen to what you like to listen to.

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Six said:

Static-X, a metal band, labelled themselves as "death disco" because they believed it's what their music was. Why? Just because they wanted to. It's their music after all.


Or they did it for the sake of sounding cool in hope that such a gender label would draw more people to their music. Just like there is some metal band out there calling their music indigo metal for the sake of sounding cool and unique when they do next to nothing to really differentiate themselves from the other sub-genres of heavy metal. I have nothing against Static-X, but the whole self label sub-gender thing got old a long time ago and it's a marketing ploy that has over stayed its welcome.

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Fulgrim said:

Or they did it for the sake of sounding cool in hope that such a gender label would draw more people to their music.


I believe they didn't like the whole nu-metal craze because it associated with unfavourable/mainstream bands at the time. They were initially put in this genre and wanted out so they tried their best to give themselves their own genre.

They did manage to move away from the nu-metal label, but it was just into industrial metal, to which everyone seems to refer to them as it seems.

Death disco isn't a thing, i agree. They were allowed to call it that, but again it doesn't mean their music really represented whatever death disco is/was exactly, nor was it elaborated, probably for the reasons you said.

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Clonehunter said:

Waiting for absolute NuMetal hate.


Yeah, lets hate Korn or many of the bands who once where innovating and experimenting with guitars and sound after 1984. Bunch of emotional idiots making music about humane problems and mental situations...

bunch o' fuckin' emo's.

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Genres are a good way to categorize and organize music. But it's not a exact science and can be bad if you stick with them without care for individual creativity.

FireFish said:

Yeah, lets hate Korn or many of the bands who once where innovating and experimenting with guitars and sound after 1984. Bunch of emotional idiots making music about humane problems and mental situations...

I think bands like Faith No More or Jane's Addiction are possibly more representative as the innovators, in this case.

EDIT: Oh, nevermind. Now I understand what you meant.

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These days, being the pioneer of an entire music genre is kinda pretentious isn't it?everything always sounds a little bit (which is enough) like something else.

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Clonehunter said:

Waiting for absolute NuMetal hate.


Numetal hasn't changed or seen innovation in 20 odd years. It is awful music for awful people.

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This thread made me think about the mess they call "industrial". Originally it was this weird rock styled easy going yet broken sounding gothic music, then it also adopted full blown rock and metal, and on top of that it has its long lasting home in the electro, dance, techno, and hardcore electronic music styles.

And to be blunt... the best bands usually achieved great commercial success.

Quast said:

Numetal hasn't changed or seen innovation in 20 odd years. It is awful music for awful people.


The epitome of commercial nu-metal because so many people know them remains Korn. This band was against bullying, lyrics about managing life, helping people get trough tough moments, and had a heavy full sound.

Sepultura, soulfly, and even a few slipknot songs are also nu-metal even though it would be better to just call the latter "a" metal band.

Not liking their musical sound is a totally different thing compared to them being "horrible people."

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My main complaint is that everything I try to get into is some sort of branching of Western music. I have managed to find some interesting microtonal stuff (such as Harry Partch), I enjoy literal noise music like Merzbow, and Mike Patton's projects such as Secrets Chiefs 3 combine a number of ethnic genres, but really, almost everything comes back to Western, 4/4, equal temperament sounds. It gets old.

FireFish said:

This thread made me think about the mess they call "industrial". Originally it was this weird rock styled easy going yet broken sounding gothic music, then it also adopted full blown rock and metal, and on top of that it has its long lasting home in the electro, dance, techno, and hardcore electronic music styles.


It was originally a form of noise music pioneered by Silver Apples Throbbing Gristle in the 1970s, which had little if anything to do with "weird rock" or "broken sounding gothic music." In fact, industrial could be said to go back further, because Luigi Russolo, in the early 20th century, produced amelodic, machine-driven noise music. The rock/gothic elements of industrial came years after the root style had been developed.

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GoatLord said:

It was originally a form of noise music pioneered by Silver Apples Throbbing Gristle in the 1970s, which had little if anything to do with "weird rock" or "broken sounding gothic music." In fact, industrial could be said to go back further, because Luigi Russolo, in the early 20th century, produced amelodic, machine-driven noise music. The rock/gothic elements of industrial came years after the root style had been developed.


When Industrial received its name it was a weird combination of rock and electronic sounds or effects, And it is not difficult to hear that when you listen to some Monte Cazazza songs or a bit of Throbbing Gristle. And the first one i mentioned (Cazazza) is rather Gothic in nature and appearance if one might say so.





And as time passes and the musicians labeled as "industrial" advance it becomes even more electronic in nature. Eventually People should just listen to what they like. I prefer NiN its impression of it all, and the metal part.

I am not going to research this all the way back to 100bc to find the first guy to make a noise slightly resembling a label.

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GoatLord said:

It was originally a form of noise music pioneered by Silver Apples Throbbing Gristle in the 1970s, which had little if anything to do with "weird rock" or "broken sounding gothic music." In fact, industrial could be said to go back further, because Luigi Russolo, in the early 20th century, produced amelodic, machine-driven noise music. The rock/gothic elements of industrial came years after the root style had been developed.

This.

By the way, I have a attack when someone calls a band like Rammstein "industrial". It's just... sad. I mean, don't even make sense calling it "industrial metal" or something.

For me NIN's Broken is the only record (that I know) that sounds more like a fusion between metal and "some-sort-of-industrial". Even Ministry, to me, sounds trivial in terms of noises or abstract sound effects.

(And then you have The Downward Spiral, but this is more eclectic already)

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I connect industrial with early Einst├╝rzende Neubauten, most of the rest seem to use the word as a poetic description of "raw sound" or whatever.

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Genres evolve, people do new or old things to them and time changes. learn to accept it. unless time machines would exist there is nothing anybody can do to stop the cultural progression which made industrial into a style with many branches.

Distorted guitars, rock like drum synths and patterns, a guy of questionable mental states whispering, whining, or screaming into a microphone like in a punk band, and that typical weird broken and distorted sound as in noise ;



Even the band that "coined" the term has multiple personalities in terms of one song highly resembling broken and distorted punk or rock, while the other song sounds like psychedelic rock with a lot of echoes combined with noise influences, and the next one sounding like piano's looped trough a feedback system.

A band as Nine Inch Nails clearly fits that entire description, and ultimately genre labels are a guide with not one true perfect fit, unless creativity does not matter and every band sounds exactly the same with no personal input or output.

Extra note ;
The guitars come to play at the end where the frontman has gay french kiss with a guy freaking out in the audience.

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