Convince me that Brutal doom is Overrrated

[Chezza]

I would like to begin with saying I definitely do not intend to start a heated debate. In fact there are a few innocent things I'm hoping to gain from this Thread:

1. Confirm that BD is the best and ideal wad for my needs
2. Possibly learn of better alternatives suggested by the community
3. Sate my curiosity on why some people don't favor BD or simply think it's overrated

_______________________________________

I'm going to list the features that I personally enjoy and the few that I don't. I would like to hear your opinions on the matter.

Chezza Approves:

1. Iron Sights & Reloading
Oh man I very much enjoy the iron sights in BD. I'm no tactical shooter fan mind you. But I argue within any FPS the ability to aim a rifle at a long distance is only logical. Some enemies are far and it's a bit too inconvenient to run at their faces so you can guarantee hitting your targets. Auto-Aim is both unreliable and too restrictive for my liking.

Reloading. Unnecessary in an old school FPS and I know unwelcome to a great many of classic FPSers. So this is strongly based on my personal opinion. But I will tell you it gives me a sense of pleasure after clearing a room of baddies and finishing up with reloading your lethal metal weapon. Also it keeps me on my toes when it comes to spam firing (the minigun should be the only non reloading weapon imo) encouraging ammo management and when the enemy are overwhelming it pushes the player to fall back and take cover at least for a second. When one must run from demons, the enemy are more terrifying resulting in adrenaline.


2. The variety of enemy deaths based on damage, weapons and hitboxes
Can anyone say anything negative about the ability to pop Zombiemen heads off when you aim for it? Or if you have a bad ass shotgun and hit the enemy leg, is it not entertaining for that leg to fly off, forcing the enemy to trip or crawl or on occasion hop in pain for a couple seconds. And depending on the weapon the results vary. The Minigun shreds the enemy piece by piece which is gory, satisfying and more true to the weapon.

3. The Player vs Monster, Monster vs Monster Fatalities
Huge fan of the berserk pack and kill animations here. Particularly when it offers a slight health boost as a reward, rendering it a wise tactical choice in specific circumstances. But fatalities do get old and the camera can clip through the walls. Some cause the camera to shake too much.

However it's nothing but a bonus when a mosnter kills the marine in melee. The mighty Baron ripping your character in half, the Imp tearing into you, the Pinky chewing on your Torso etc. You appreciate the brutality of these demons and their strength with such a display.

And let's not forget the Monster vs Monster finishers. Now even the most classic Doom players must agree monster infighting is both a viable tactic and entertaining outcome in Doom. Brutal Doom expands on it with these finishes. Have you seen what a Revenant does to the lesser creatures? It picks them up by the leg, swinging them overhead and smacking them upon the ground left, right, left, right and then tosses their corpse at you! It's funny and lethal.

4. Kicking & Jump Kicking
I have grown fond of the kicking ability. Especially due to how I favor the double barrel shotgun. You shoot both barrels and you need the moment to reload. Suddenly a Pinky runs at your face! Kick (Q), push it back for a second, quickly load the 2 shells and then BOOM you got pinky everywhere. It's not just a savior against melee attacks, you can attempt to jump kick and either stun or instant kill lesser demons in your initial attack. Sure it's not how everyone wants to play the game but it only adds to the gameplay no? It's definitely not forced in the way at all. Definitely a superior method to the cheap dancing trick.

5. All the other bonuses
The breakable props, enemies flying stunned or dead from explosions, secondary firing abilities and the incredible amount of additional sprites to cater to said situations don't take away from the Doom experience. Nay, most of these do exactly what Doom designed them for but updates them with glorious visuals and dynamic outcomes. Oh and let's not forget about the new Stealth system which is great if you return to the invisibility buff (as oppose to the Marine).


Chezza Disapproves

1. The Taunts
So loud, obnoxious and over the top. Not to mention cheesy. While there are interesting results from it, like the Mancubus raging rendering it vulnerable for a short period or the Cyberdemon who does the same except its anger results in a faster fire rate.

2. The Friendly Marines
At first I really liked this feature. However their constant talking, spastic running speeds, running in front of my fire and the buggy V2.0 invincibility bug has made them nothing but a pain in the rear.


So that sums up why I love BD and see it as one of the better Wads available
Brutal Doom has a large quantity of balanced features that obviously took some serious time and effort to create. I haven't even listed them all. So I feel it ought to be respected, praised even. It appears it does everywhere BUT the Doom community. What gives? Is this all a matter of preference or there is more that I don't know about? I did come across a Thread on Zdoom forums something regarding sgt_Marks being a bit of a pariah, although I don't know any of the details.

Tell me, are there other Doom Wads that offer enhanced gameplay with content superior to Brutal Doom that I'm missing? Are the features I listed stolen from others? Is some of your rationale is how it takes away some of the classic feel a bit too much?

[Breezeep]

This thread isn't going to end well. I know it won't.

[Gifty]

Can we just not even do this?

[Chezza]

Again I don't want to start a heated debate. As a new person to the community I'm a bit naive and ignorant. Honest and calm responses are encouraged.

[baja blast rd.]

The title is oddly phrased. I mean, who cares? You either like it or you don't. And if you do, whoop-dee-fucking-doo . . . I'm sure no one is losing sleep thinking, "Omg, Chezza from the internet likes BRUTAL DOOM". A generic title pf "Brutal Doom discussion" would have been better.

[Dime]

Generally I don't really like it as much because the weapons are weaker than the vanilla counterparts besides the normal shotgun.

I will say that not being able to hit targets very far away results in a very interesting dynamic. It creates atleast 3 situations where you are likely to be forced into an offensive scenario. AKA Arch-viles, Pain elementals or targets that you cannot hit. In vanilla you are forced into an uncomfortable offense where as in brutal doom you hide around a corner and snipe.

If you like brutal doom play with brutal doom. But, if you intend on telling me it's better than vanilla, then don't be shocked when you receive negative responses.

[PsychoGoatee]

Brutal Doom is very underrated here. It's downright hated, while any gameplay mod that does half of what it does gets lots of love and support. I think it's fun and really good.

That said, I'm not quite as big on it as you Chezza, since I get the impression you prefer it over Doom in general. I like it as a mod to play as well, like say Action Quake or Action Half-Life. And it's a really well done mod. Also technically it's a pk3 not a wad, and I think of user levels when I think of WADs. Comparing it to other WADs isn't really how I'd rate it.

I think it's odd how people almost seem embarrassed to admit they like it, to fit in. That is honestly the vibe I get in regards to Brutal Doom. I know plenty genuinely just dislike it, and that's valid too. But I do think at some point it became a fad to hate on it. Probably because of it's mainstream popularity.

Not to nitpick, the poll options could be worded better. Saying it "enhances" Doom makes it sound like you think it improves upon Doom. I do not think that, but I think it is a very fun and good mod. So I'll pick that option anyway.

Also for the record, I don't like ironsights. Reloading is badass though, as Revolver Ocelot has explained in detail.

rdwpa said:

The title is oddly phrased. I mean, who cares? You either like it or you don't.

You either like it or don't would be nice, but it seems to get a lot more vitriol than that.

[Bucket]

Brutal Doom is overrated. I think it's amazing and I've never even played it!

[PsychoGoatee]

Bucket said:

Brutal Doom is overrated. I think it's amazing and I've never even played it!

Even in this joking context, if you think it's amazing wouldn't it be either underrated or rated appropriately, not overrated?

[Chezza]

I will straight out say it, I do believe Brutal Doom in fact improves upon Vanilla Doom (when supported with Zdoom/GZdoom etc) but I don't expect everyone else to agree. What I do want to hear is valid points countering the pros I gave BD. Unless the only criticism of it is simply preference? And honestly I would go as far as to say if the resources, technology and time was available John Romero himself would used a couple of its features (waiting for a brick to smack face). This is regarding gibs, more gore, shockwaved explosions, some secondary abilities and maybe even monster fatalities.

Granted it is over the top in many ways, I guess I happen to be its target audience though.

It's just that we all played Doom countless times and loved it too. But, does the one single repetitive death animation per enemy not bore you at some point? Many of the dated sprites and sounds (nostalgic and was amazing back in the day, I understand) could use a bit of a boost no? The vanilla Pistol... never liked it. Never. Most boring weapon you used if desperate. Turning it into an automatic rifle that can be used for burst fire and even single shots is more entertaining let alone practical. However features like Duel wielding, like in V2.0 is a bit too over the top for my liking. It turns the tactical enhancement into an overwhelmingly powerful starting weapon, almost eliminating the use of the minigun.

In regards to the Title:
I'm basically challenging people to give me legitimate reasons why hating / disliking BD is justified. convince me why the attention it receives is not justified. Is it because there are better equivalents? or the ideas aren't new / stolen?

[ClonedPickle]

Chezza said:

stolen?

This is probably my biggest problem with BD: it's full of stolen assets. Code, artwork, etc. is ripped from other sources when possible and if any credit is given it's not immediately obvious. When Brutal Doom gets praise for things it doesn't deserve praise for, I hate it a little bit more. I hate it quite a bit, by this point.


Also the author is a scumbag and I'm totally okay with judging works of art by their author

[Pencil of Doom]

Chezza said:

1.It's just that we all played Doom countless times and loved it too.
2.But, does the one single repetitive death animation per enemy not bore you at some point? Many of the dated sprites and sounds (nostalgic and was amazing back in the day, I understand) could use a bit of a boost no?
3.The vanilla Pistol... never liked it. Never. Most boring weapon you used if desperate. Turning it into an automatic rifle that can be used for burst fire and even single shots is more entertaining let alone practical.

1.Indeed, although i still enjoy vanilla.
2.Yes i get bored sometimes at some point, sure they can and could use a bit of boost, that is why mods exist, it's to tweak the game, fix the mistakes that couldn't be fixed due to restricted time, enhance the gameplay, make it worth replaying and make the game more popular.
3.Neither did i, totally agree it's the most boring weapon in desperate situations and yeah, an auto rifle with burst-fire and full-auto is more entertaining.

[Csonicgo]

Dime said:

If you like brutal doom play with brutal doom. But, if you intend on telling me it's better than vanilla, then don't be shocked when you receive negative responses.

Bears repeating.

[TheMightyHeracross]

"Definitely some good qualities to it but not my first choice"

Honestly, it's just a gameplay mod, like any other. It doesn't improve on Doom's gameplay as much as it changes it into something completely different. And that's what a gameplay mod does, right? It's surely not the worst, and definitely not close to the best, but it's fun- that's what matters. Isn't it?

[Armaetus]

Let's see...

1) The changes to the monsters up until v20 are unnecessary, same with the weapons.
2) The change from hitscan to super fast projectile.
3) Unbalances some to most custom maps.
4) Immaturity with the middle finger and the lame fatalities makes Doomguy look like a sadist.
5) Unnecessary features such as friendly marines, adding sounds that don't need changing, messing with items and armor, etc.
6) The past controversy surrounding Mark regarding suicide and racism.
7) The god awful fanbase, particularly the fanboys.
8) The insistence of some fans asking for BD compatibility for XYZ mod/XYZ map/mapset.
9) Calling his remaster of original maps better than the IWAD originals.
10) Mark's ego, the mention of stolen assets and him being banned from 2 of the 3 major Doom forums on the internet.

Must I say more? I know this because I am a former Brutal Doom user from v7 to v19 (or Feb 2011 to Jan 2015). For the variety in deaths mentioning on your OP, you could give my own RDND mod a try as assets were used from it and it's weapons mod compatible.

[PsychoGoatee]

Glaice said:

Immaturity with the middle finger and the lame fatalities makes Doomguy look like a sadist.

Doom 4? Personally I think Doom the comic is incredible, and I think Doom 4 looks great too. It is sadistic, but that doesn't seem too out of place in Doom to me. The comedy is going for a different thing though of course.

ClonedPickle said:

This is probably my biggest problem with BD: it's full of stolen assets. Code, artwork, etc. is ripped from other sources when possible and if any credit is given it's not immediately obvious.

Just curious, what things has it taken code from?

TheMightyHeracross said:

"Definitely some good qualities to it but not my first choice"

Honestly, it's just a gameplay mod, like any other. It doesn't improve on Doom's gameplay as much as it changes it into something completely different. And that's what a gameplay mod does, right? It's surely not the worst, and definitely not close to the best, but it's fun- that's what matters. Isn't it?

If it's not the best gameplay mod, what is? Demonsteele is the only other one I've heard of, that and the Brutal Doom mod Project Brutality. Not talking about WADs with new weapons and enemies, I mean ones like this that you can apply to the original games to change their gameplay. Most of the top acclaimed WADs seem to leave the gameplay pretty much as is.

Also for the record, I just googled "best doom gameplay mods", and the lists didn't seem to include much like Brutal Doom in that way.

[Impie]

ClonedPickle said:

This is probably my biggest problem with BD: it's full of stolen assets. Code, artwork, etc. is ripped from other sources when possible and if any credit is given it's not immediately obvious. When Brutal Doom gets praise for things it doesn't deserve praise for, I hate it a little bit more. I hate it quite a bit, by this point.


Also the author is a scumbag and I'm totally okay with judging works of art by their author

You should list the assets where they appear in other wads as evidence. I must confess I'm curious, but people ought to be more detailed with these sorts of statements for everyone's benefit, and for the sake of their own credibility. (Not calling you out or anything, I just like thoroughness, and I'd like to check out any mods BD "borrowed" from).

I feel like Grezzo is more overrated and more blatantly full of asset theft, and it's annoying to see people playing and praising that on youtube instead of the mods the assets came from, like Zharkov Goes To The Store (unless Zharkov ripped the flying fist from Grezzo, in which case I'd like some bacon with that egg on my face).

[Moktar]

Really, any other flavor that isn't SE is unbearable for me, so I'm using it for 2 years and always with reduced blood amounts —oh, the first thing I do is disabling taunts and that stupid middle finger—. I also agree with the majority that v20 is totally junk and full of innecessary and absurd tweaks —2 guns, really?—. Now, what BD needs is a seriously well done fork.

[Jaxxoon R]

Better than Hideous Destructor.

[PsychoGoatee]

Moktar said:

—2 guns, really?—.

This is where the Doom suspension of disbelief gets broken?

[snapshot]

Once again, if people want to play the game without "Gameplay" changes, it is better not to touch any custom wads .

[DeathevokatioN]

Glaice said:

8) The insistence of some fans asking for BD compatibility for XYZ mod/XYZ map/mapset.

THIS

[Nems]

1. Confirm that BD is the best and ideal wad for my needs

Only you can decide what mod is best and ideal for your needs. Mileage is going to vary depending on the user. In fact, I imagine a lot of the hate for BD here on Doomworld comes from the BD fanbase that hails it's "Doom the way it's meant to be".

It's a gameplay mod. It changes the core, vanilla mechanics of Doom (like many/most gameplay mods for Doom). For some people, BD is their cup of tea. Others may want to load up Russian Overkill and nuke ALL THE THINGS. It honestly all boils down to what the player is interested in and how open a mind they have when it comes to mods.

2. Possibly learn of better alternatives suggested by the community

Aside from the ones mentioned here already (and ones I already mentioned), you could give DoomRL Arsenal and/or DoomRPG a shot if you want more stats and RNGesus in your gameplay experience.

There's also Contra Doom for when you're in a Contra mood but are too lazy to download an emulator to play Contra and want to play it in Doom (complete with one hit kills and extra lives!).

Other ones to check out are Zero Tolerance, Weapons of Saturn, WildWeasel's Terrorists!, Scalliano's 667 Shuffle (one of my favorite randomizer mods), QuakeStyle ZX (another fun randomizer mod), Psychic, Project MSX, Quake - Descent into Heresy (this is a Heretic mod but still good I think), OSCJ's Old Skool Mod, OSJC's Doom 3 Remix Mod, WildWeasel's Nazis!, Hunter's Moon (aka Quake III + some Doom 3 in GZDoom also holy shit Revilution makes some damn good eye candy maps to go with the mod), Hard Doom 6.9, EriGuns, Dark Doom, Colorful Hell (another randomizer mod that can get pretty tough real fast if RNGesus feels like playing rough), and 10x (there's like...I wanna say three different versions floating around the internet: CutmanMike's original, another by sonic_HD87 with support for almost all Doom engine games, and another by The Zombie Killer that has a sv_10xu_mul cvar to let you have more or less than 10x).

3. Sate my curiosity on why some people don't favor BD or simply think it's overrated

As I said before, people claiming that BD is "Doom the way it's meant to be" likely has a lot to do with people's dislike of it. Other reasons include:

-asking/demanding(?) that BD be made compatible with certain mapsets and other mods
-BD fanboys shitting all over other mods
-Sgt. Mark's less-than-pleasant behavior, attitude, and ego that got him banned from most Doom communities
-"game journalists" who gushed and creamed themselves over the mod while looking over and/or ignoring other mods (that other people may think are just as worthy of praise as BD, if not more so)
-increased feature bloat as BD development went along

I'm likely echoing what other people have already said. However, there you have it.

Again, no one here is gonna try to convince you one way or the other that BD is the be-all, end-all gameplay mod for you, nor is anyone gonna convince you that BD is the gonorrherpesyphilAIDS of mods and should be avoided like the plague (well, at least I won't).

At the end of the day, don't be afraid to try out other game play mods to see if they're your thing or not. Sure, you like BD. That's fine. However, as you try more mods, you may very well come across one that you'll find as fun as or more fun that BD.

There's a metric fuckton of Doom content out there. Don't limit yourself to just one gameplay mod or level set. Be adventurous. Try more. Mix and match.

Just make sure if you do mix and match that there aren't any conflicts and if there are either try another mod, play it vanilla, look for similar issues to see if there's a fix already, or open up an editor and work on making them compatible via a patch. :v

[Louigi Verona]

I haven't yet played it, but what I've seen looks fun. But, as a mod should do, it turns Doom into a very different game, both in in aesthetics and gameplay.

So, the initial question is kinda weird. It might be overrated from some people's point of view and not overrated from other people's POV :)

[GreyGhost]

The occasional Brutal Doom playthrough can be fun to watch, but overall it's a bit too OTT for my liking.

Chezza said:

And honestly I would go as far as to say if the resources, technology and time was available John Romero himself would used a couple of its features (waiting for a brick to smack face).

Thou shalt not take the Romero's name in vain!

[Doomkid]

Definitely some good qualities to it but not my first choice. There are many other WADs that deserve just as much or more praise.


I voted for the former, but that sentence pretty much sums up my opinion. DOOM is incredible and does not need enhancement - But shit, it's fun to from time to time anyways :)

[VGA]

For gameplay mods I suggest Smooth Doom with Gzdoom and Doom Forever with 3DGE.

Much muuuch better IMO.

Or softcore vanilla with Doom Retro.

[SyntherAugustus]

ClonedPickle said:

When Brutal Doom gets praise for things it doesn't deserve praise for, I hate it a little bit more. I hate it quite a bit, by this point.

Heh. I remember watching TotalBiscuit's video and he was like "They added x [zdoom feature] into Brutal Doom" and I was like "What!? No he didn't!". Surprised even him didn't do some simple research before producing a video.

I think the last time I played Doodle Broom through a megawad was BTSX1. I had to mod the heck of out it in order for it to play nice together. I also learned how NOT to report bugs while having mods enabled (again, sorry Essel). My reasoning at the time was that I was enjoying the difficulty spike and it was pretty fun to see satisfying weapon gunplay. However, Smooth Doom now does that without radically changing anything. (edit: While I'm at it, I wish TerminusEst13 would update Samsara, but he's moved on to bigger things :( )

The vanilla character mode in Brutal 2.0 is a step in the right direction, but for some reason the character was released as broken (I had to edit KEYCONF to enable the BFG) and the differences between the monsters are not seamless.

I imagine the "not going to end well" bit of this thread will relate to MarkIV's ego, but we'll see how that plays out.

[Jaxxoon R]

Eh, Totalbiscuit is kind of a twat anyways.

[VGA]

Jaxxoon R said:

Eh, Totalbiscuit is kind of a twat anyways.

If you're gonna post something like that then state your reasons, if any.