THT: Threnody - released!

[Fonze]

Yeah I kinda fell off in my Doom time for a bit, so our map suffered a major setback on my end.

I think the end of the month is pushing things a bit, even with HMP totally done right now. I still need to fully run through the map several times to account for its non-linearity for each difficulty as I finish them, including medium-mode to some degree (I have ran through it a couple times, but there are many paths and choices for the player to make). After that I need to get the map ready to accept the SepTytex resource and then clean-up for the sake of a coherent map (Boom likes to show every trigger-line and every different sector, even if it shares the properties of its neighbors).

As long as I continue at the pace I am currently mapping, I will have HNTR done as well by the end of the week with hopefully all the playtesting I want to do to HNTR and HMP done also. UV has only one major area left, but the playtesting to make sure each encounter fits well with the others and everything flows will take a while, due to the map's size and non-linearity, as well as the added difficulty and

Spoiler

Now you wouldn't want to ruin the surprise, would you?

Spoiler

extra area.

Then again, a month is a good amount of time and I have the most time-consuming portion of the map done anyway, so who knows.

Anyway, I'm glad to see Chris stepping up some leadership for us and I really look forward to the new maps, in particular DoomKid's. So DoomKid, will your map be Brutal Doom compat-- I mean, optimized for multiplayer? Knowing you, I'm guessing there will be some deep, dark, secret twist in DM. ;p

Shit speaking of which, I need to do DM stuff to this map too, lol.

[baja blast rd.]

Chris Hansen said:

Here's the latest version of my map with several fixes and adjustments:

http://windward.dk/TDR/ty_tribute2.wad

I don't know why I bother though, because there's literally zero management in this project with geo being awol for several weeks :P

If the situation requires it and noone else wants to, then I'll take leadership. I mean, it's like we've been abandoned or something and I'll be damned if we're going to pay our respects to Ty by letting this run into the sand.

But hey, let's not go there just yet. But let this be my way of saying that we really need to get this project back on track and hopefully we'll hear from geo soon.

Played it again and enjoyed it as if it were new. It's a very replayable map -- a ton of different routes, all of which meaningfully change the nature of the fights, and many secrets. This time I got the chaingun before the first lock-in trap, which helped a lot, and then jumped into the building via that "hole" after clearing out most of the monsters outside.

Anyway, it's quite easy to jump (strafe jump) to the RL ledge from the adjacent little rectangular strip next to it, without triggering the new warp-in. I intentionally triggered it anyway before exiting the map, however, because I was curious. I like the changes, and maybe additional monsters could appear in the water and in the area where the SSG initially is; those are very easy safe zones if the player clears them out first before grabbing the RL. Cacos coming from the other direction over the water and chaingunners in the building would be cool.

[Mechadon]

Hey I'd like to echo Obsidian's comment about moving the deadline to a few months ahead; February seems realistic to me as well. I would really like to contribute something but the end of November might be a bit tight. It's better to spend a little extra time making sure everything is top-notch before a release too.

Just my two cents though! I will try to start on something soon :)

[Chris Hansen]

Thanks for the comments, rdwpa! I'll fix that RL shortcut.

About the deadline, I should have probably mentioned that me and Mithran talked about it being a tentative deadline. But I forgot to write that. We want to see what kinda progress we've made at Nov 30th and take it from there. If people need more time then they'll get it of course.

Edit: Linguica worked his magic and I'm now the OP of this thread, which has been updated with the usual stuff for a project like this. I tried to clarify a bit about the deadline, I hope it's bette now. And if I forgot or overlooked something else, then please let me know, thanks. It's a first for me trying to manage something like this :P.

[Angry Saint]

Here I am back from the dead (of my pc).

30 November seems to be a reasonable date for finishing the maps.

[Chris Hansen]

Welcome back! Good to hear you sorted it out :)

[Doomkid]

Hey folks, I've got this big map that attempts to incorporate many of my favorite gameplay/atmosphere elements from both Doom2 and TNT. I hope you guys enjoy it, and I hope it suits well with the other maps too. Plenty of odd quirky bits, which is really what I love about both Doom2 and TNT compared to their Doom1 and Plutonia counterparts which are more "clean".

TNT.wad for the iwad, of course. http://www.mediafire.com/download/ffh25u7owwb5xjd/forgtomb.wad

[Fonze]

Fun map Doomkid!

BLIND CLIFFHANGER DEMO!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0cu76ba9e97rujw/forgtombdemo1.zip?dl=0

Spoiler

Spoilers within spoilers to ruin the surprise

Spoiler

WITHIN SPOILERS

Spoiler

It was 25 minutes long. How I survived is a ponderable miracle. I did open it first in zDoom to see how many monsters I was dealing with, so maybe not completely blind, but I constantly thought I was just over 100, so that didn't really help. The end was a total surprise.

You can see the nervousness build in my playing the farther I went, lol. I honestly thought death was around every corner, until near the end when I realized this wasn't a trap-heavy map. You can almost taste the sheer cocky-ness when I pass the armor near the end, which I also passed earlier, though for better reason.

There was at least one part with an end-result texture misalignment. The monster closet located near the beginning(end) when the player is on the way out.

I ended with what I'm guessing was 4/7 secrets (57%), which means to me that the secrets were pretty fair.

As I said, it wasn't trap-heavy, which was nice because I actually made it, but at the same time the danger-pressure was fairly low through-out, save a couple of well-designed fights (good job on those). Still, it was a nicely designed map with great thing placement, taking the lack of traps into account. Still, a lack of traps in the predictable spots also helps that apprehension feeling that you'd better believe I was feeling ;p

I really feel like there should have been more traps; mostly because I felt like there were next to none. I mean, great job building a map that screws with a player's head, all the way to the end of the map too, but some of it, including the ending, felt like a let-down. That sounds a bit harsh; I hope you don't take it that way, but it's the only way my brain can put it for now.

I completed the map (at some point), these were my thoughts:

The end was weird; idk how else to say it.

I really liked the way the encounters were handled. Nothing was ridiculous, but there were plenty of well-designed, tough fights.

I liked the barrel placement, too.

I got a few secrets, so my take on health and ammo given may be a bit skewed, but from my experience here they were fairly abundant through-out, though there were a few starving moments.

I liked the momentary non-linearity in the part with multiple doors, though the rest was linear. Not a bad thing, though, sometimes just a bit is just the right amount; I didn't really even think about it until now.

All-in-all I had fun playing this. Great job dude!

[Walter confetti]

maybe i will do some short map...

[Doomkid]

Thanks so much for taking the time to give it a thorough play, Fonze! I agree that the ending is a little subpar - I was really pressed for ideas, and wasn't sure where this amp will fit within the wad, so I wasn't sure of a "final showdown" of sorts was necessary. Also, regarding traps, I feel like I've gone overboard enough with that over the years and wanted something a little more straightforward (In TNT, there are traps, but they aren't nearly as common as in my usual mapping style.)

There may be a slightly modified/improved version within the next few days. Thanks for the feedback, it really does help!

[antares031]

I really hope that It's not too late for me to participate this project.

[Chris Hansen]

walter confalonieri said:

maybe i will do some short map...

antares031 said:

I really hope that It's not too late for me to participate this project.

There's definitely room for more on this boat! Welcome aboard, friends! :)

[Chris Hansen]

Doomkid said:

Hey folks, I've got this big map that attempts to incorporate many of my favorite gameplay/atmosphere elements from both Doom2 and TNT. I hope you guys enjoy it, and I hope it suits well with the other maps too. Plenty of odd quirky bits, which is really what I love about both Doom2 and TNT compared to their Doom1 and Plutonia counterparts which are more "clean".

TNT.wad for the iwad, of course. http://www.mediafire.com/download/ffh25u7owwb5xjd/forgtomb.wad

Good thing Fonze was quicker than me, because he basically mentioned everything I would have written. Lucky me! :)

But I do have a couple of comments myself, because there were things in terms of both gameplay and design, that I feel could perhaps be improved a bit upon. But that's of course completely up to you, because it's a solid map as it is. Anyway, here goes:

- Some of the monsters' strong points are a bit nerfed in certain situations. This applies to a lot of the monsters in the blue key area. Like the Pain Elemental (thing id 298), which spews out Lost Souls that arent very dangerous because of all the impassable MIDGRATE lines. A Pain Elemental is extremely dangerous if they see the player early and have lots of open space and time for spewing out their little, flaming brats! ;)
- I think the barrels are too close to the berserk in sector 132. I had to carefully walk around it to hit the switches, as I didn't need it at this point (health wise). Move it a bit of delete a barrel or two to make it easier for the player to navigate that area. Or don't, up to you! :D
- On topic: The entire blue key area (sector 113) and sectors 153-165 are so chock-full of monsters that I could barely move. And they are all attacking you from the front. I think they are good examples of hallways that look like murder mayhem, but are gentler than a stoned bunny on a warm summer day! For me, it's just a tad tedious to clear them as all I do is to alert them, retract backwards, poke my head around the corner and repeat. But as you said, it's on purpose and there's nothing wrong with it per se. It's just not for me, that's all ;)
- I find it a bit strange, that you chose to have one of the Revenants in sector 42 teleport so far away. Unless you go upstairs again and kill him, you wont see him again before returning with the yellow key. I found that a bit strange, when in fact sectors 4 and 28 are "flooded" with Revenants at that point.
- Linedef 386 needs some aligning if it's a WFALL texture you're looking for and not a SWSKULL texture (or whatever it is).
-Arachnotron (and possibly other monsters) can get stuck on sectors 148 and 149.
-Candles in sector 52 jump when you activate the lift. Move them further away.
- The two doors (sector 111 and 86) make it easy and a bit tedious to kill a lot of the monsters inside the rooms. If they could open the doors, then we have another situation. Or maybe let the doors stay open? Just an idea. Or leave as it is, since I might be the only one complaining about it! ;)
- An Arch Vile pushed me up into secret room 206. I entered the CD room/yellow key room from that side, and thought I couldn't get out. It wasn't until after I checked the map in DB, that I could see that I should have just pressed linedef 1158 to activate the lift, which appears to be the intended way to get into sector 206 :P I would have never thought to press that linedef as there's little indication of it being a secret passage. Just thought I'd mention it.
- Is the exit marked? I had a feeling it was the end, but I wasn't sure. I guess it was! :D That seemed like an abrupt and dull way to end an otherwise good level.

Also, where's the song from and what's the name of the level?

Thanks for making a level for the project! I enjoyed it :)

[didy]

I have a single player boom-map which I did for bauhaus.wad but I didn't release it. The map contains replaced sprites and new textures. I guess that new sprites aren't allowed. If it is ok for you I could overwork the map and I would like to contribute the map to this project. I still want to keep the new textures.
Screenshot:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/934rs4ums6377i9/b-ex02.png

download, doom2, map02:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ksufxnd31163e7b/bauhaus02abandoned.wad

[Doomkid]

Thanks for all the feedback Chris! I agree with and plan to implement in some way all of your suggestions. I think everything you've listed is a good suggestion and most of them were simply the result of oversight. Believe it or not, the candles raising was intentional to show that secret had been activated. I have no idea why I do crap like that when mapping. The berserk being hard to move around was also intentional but I think that's just annoying in hindsight so it will also be altered.

Oh and that exit sucks bauls, there's no excuse, I just ran out of ideas. Improved version of the map coming in a few days :)

EDIT: I think didy's map would make for a great themed secret map. Seems to go in-line with TNT's themed secret maps. It looks fantastic, by the way.

Regarding my map's name, it was originally Forgotten Tomb, but I was considering flat out ripping the Deepest Reaches name from final doom. I'm not sure which to go with (not that anyone but me will even give a damn rofl)

[Chris Hansen]

didy said:

I have a single player boom-map which I did for bauhaus.wad but I didn't release it. The map contains replaced sprites and new textures. I guess that new sprites aren't allowed. If it is ok for you I could overwork the map and I would like to contribute the map to this project. I still want to keep the new textures.
Screenshot:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/934rs4ums6377i9/b-ex02.png

download, doom2, map02:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ksufxnd31163e7b/bauhaus02abandoned.wad

Very cool! I can't see the problem in accepting your kind offer :) It would make a worthy addition to this project. We just have to find the angle that justifies it as a proper tribute map to Ty. But I guess that's sorted as it is Boom compatible. Did you use some "real" Boom effects or is "just" to make sure that players don't get any weird errors from the complexity of the level? :)

Doomkid said:

Oh and that exit sucks bauls, there's no excuse, I just ran out of ideas. Improved version of the map coming in a few days :)

Regarding my map's name, it was originally Forgotten Tomb, but I was considering flat out ripping the Deepest Reaches name from final doom. I'm not sure which to go with (not that anyone but me will even give a damn rofl)

Looking forward to see the next version of your map! I'm happy to hear that you found some of my advice useful :) I'll call it Forgotten Reaches for now ;D Remember to let me know when you decide on the real name for it.

[didy]

Chris Hansen said:

We just have to find the angle that justifies it as a proper tribute map to Ty. But I guess that's sorted as it is Boom compatible. Did you use some "real" Boom effects or is "just" to make sure that players don't get any weird errors from the complexity of the level? :)

I just have taken a look into the resource wad (didn't know there is one). I think it should be possible to overwork the look of the map to make it more doommish. But I don't know much about Ty's style. If it is ok, I'll send a new reworked version. If it doesn't fit that good to this project it is no problem to reject the map. I'll give it a try - but can't promise anything.

Is the resource wad already closed or can I use maybe a handfull of new textures?

Yes, there are some real boom actions in the map.

[Chris Hansen]

That sounds good, didy! The level looks excellent as it is, but it would really interesting to see converted a bit into a more conventional Doom setting. And if it doesn't work, I'm pretty sure we can use the map more or less at it is. And yes, feel free to use some of your textures, I see no problem in that :)

[Fonze]

Your welcome DoomKid; I really enjoyed playing it. About what Chris said...

That PE in the blue key room was next to worthless. Its only real function was the same as the nearby baron, as an ammo sponge. However, even in such a role the PE still has that "oh shit I'd better kill him first" effect. Still, it is a decent enough way to limit ammo. I could take or leave that PE.

That berserk pack was troublesome for me as well. You can see me try my darndest to avoid it and fail. Still, only a minor annoyance.

That blue key area was fairly densely packed, but not too bad imo. However, as I said before, this map needed more traps. What Chris said is exactly what I thought too, "why are they all coming from the front?" though I'm my head it was also mixed with, "w(here)tf are all the traps?" I think that blue key room was the worst culprit on that, well plus the SSG room.

The revenant in sector 42 did teleport a bit too far away and if you noticed in my demo I actually activated them separately. Perhaps adding some sound-blocking lines and removing the deaf flag could fix this. As for where that rev will teleport to, that's a tough one; you don't want him too close, but perhaps a couple sectors closer would do the trick.

Chris is right that a couple doors should have been open stay. What he said.

One other thing, thanks Chris for mentioning the music, I forgot to put this in my last post: I loved the music choice DoomKid! I recognized it immediately as Norfair, from Metroid, though it sounds a bit "updated" from the old Nintendo game, lol.



I'll take a look at your map tonight, Didy.



Also, I should have a beta for our map with medium and easy done, but not UV, by the end of tonight. I just want to playtest a bit more on it, ponder the appearance of a BFG, and do better detail to a blood pool that I forgot to finish earlier.



*Edit*
I'm a dummy, the song was "Kraid's Lair" from Metroid, not "Norfair," lol.

[Fonze]

Double postage takes twice as many stamps.

Well after a few weeks of collecting virtual dust I got back to work on this bad boy and I'm finally ready to release a beta version of Z0k's and my map. Easy and medium are done at this point, minus some minor tweaking that I'm sure will need to be done.

Few things here:

The gameplay that I've implemented is somewhat off the beaten path of a traditional Doom experience. The map is centered around the themes of MAP04: Wormhole and MAP19: Shipping and Respawning from the TNT iWad. As such, there are many tribute areas and a select few tribute encounters from the iWad maps. However, as things take a darker tone as the map progresses I have tried to make a gameplay to match. So the beginning is more traditional-Doom, but separates as the map goes on. I incorporated some small horror elements not quite as present in the lower difficulties, though being themed around wormholes, I have used many teleports, including those of the silent variety. Nowhere is safe, or so it may seem (later in the map).

Needless to say, the gameplay here is a bit experimental, but I went through many tests to make sure that nothing is ridiculous and every encounter is beatable with nothing but the guns that are guaranteed.

Health and ammo are very forgiving, even without the many secrets.

This map is pretty big and Z0k did an excellent job detailing and designing it. It is very non-linear, almost to the extreme. Just about everything is optional, save a few doors and a switch.

As such, the gameplay was very time-consuming for me to test as a whole. While each encounter is beatable with nothing but guns, I have not had enough time to fully test every route and every possible choice combination. I have tested all the major ones, though, and I find that the map flows well on each difficulty.

Hard mode only has one-third of the total map left, but for this I have deleted, or close to it, everything past the second major area (that's why I called it shareware (fancy word for demo and avoids confusion) rather than beta). I'd like to see some of the easier difficulties tested, (also, hard's not done yet anyway, so there's no point in testing 2/3 of it) though I must say that I do not design easy mode like the iWads do. I design it to be more like a normal mode, though easily beatable, even with keyboard controls; few tricks and traps here. Medium is more like a hard mode, while UV will be beatable, but under fairly high pressure. I've also tried to keep monster counts somewhat similar between the difficulties, making monsters and situations harder and with more pressure rather than increasing monster counts through-out. In the same total area, easy is at 232, medium is at 254, and hard is at 292. That may sound like a lot, but the map is huge. Also, less traps on the lower difficulties means less places for enemies to be.

The map is currently unnamed, though I've taken to calling it by my pet name for it, (and I think Z0k gave it this same pet name, which is funny) "WormHell." Hey, put it right next to MD's "RocketHell."

https://www.dropbox.com/s/un0wrlwbxu1uamv/TYTY_v21_Shareware.zip?dl=0
TNT iWad only, no SepTytex yet.
Boom format
MAP04

I really hope y'all enjoy this monster that Z0k and I have created as much as we've enjoyed making it :)





*Edit*
I played through didy's map; man that thing was pretty! I'm getting tired at this point so I made more than a few careless errors in these FDA's, but here's two failed attempts for you ;p
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pc8zf7opikkybgf/Abandoneddemo.zip?dl=0

Man I love realistic-looking maps. They're such a rarity when done this good. I didn't make it in the demos, but I did explore the rest of the level. I loved the rooftops part.

That lift texture really threw me off. At first I thought it was some new way of showing a missing texture or something stupid like that. Then the shotgunner shoots me, every time... lol.

Health was pretty scarce, but if I was thinking straighter it prolly would have been fine. Still, lots of hitscanners and without that soulsphere I'd've been screwed.

Ammo was nicely done and matched the enemy set.

I liked the way enemies were placed here, though few spots were high-pressure. Not a bad thing, though. The later fights turned into monster-infights, but the last AV was a nice touch.

I wasn't a huge fan of that area I died in in the second FDA; I beat it in zDoom by rushing the AV so the wall would still provide cover. I guess that little thing in the middle works, but it's too small for my taste and the only other option is to retreat through the door and let the AV resurrect as he pleases.

I liked the dynamic architecture you had in here, too. The yellow key area was really sweet.

Fantastic job with texturing as well!

Fun map to play and a great addition to this project, I'd say! I could certainly see this as a secret map as well.

[Chris Hansen]

Fonze said:

One other thing, thanks Chris for mentioning the music, I forgot to put this in my last post: I loved the music choice DoomKid! I recognized it immediately as Norfair, from Metroid, though it sounds a bit "updated" from the old Nintendo game, lol.

*Edit*
I'm a dummy, the song was "Kraid's Lair" from Metroid, not "Norfair," lol.

Thanks!

I'm currently playing through your level. windward.dk/TDR/tyty_ch_fda_skill2.lmp]Here's a failed fda for you. I didn't make it very far into what I believe to be the second dimension. I got torn to pieces by a Baron, some Mancs and PE's :P But I'll get my revenge later! And return with some feedback. I know you guys already know this, but I'm really liking this level! The looks are really, really awesome and the gameplay so far is my kind of thing with a bit of sneaking around and a lot of exploration :) Good job so far, guys!


EDIT: I'm back with a little feedback on the level. I thoroughly enjoyed playing through although I'm not 100% sure I completely understood it! :D It was just such a weird, wonderful and whacky experience, that I didn't care whether I did or not because all it really boils down to: Are you entertained? Why yes, sir. I am! :)

I have a hard time giving feedback on the difficulty and general gameplay of the level. I think it was suitable and there was never anything that really stood out as gamebreaking or unfair. I felt the opposition was well placed and almost every fight, whether it was small or big, had an interesting and fun angle to it. Never a doll moment here!

The only thing I would suggest, is perhaps adding a bit more ammo throughout the entire level. I seemed to run out a lot and had to search all over the place for a clip or 4 shells. That was a bit annoying as it ruined the flow a bit for me. I like exploring, but I was close to going a little crazy sometimes ;) But hey, it isn't easy controlling the amount of ammo for a level when it's this nonlinear and with a headless chicken like me running around in it! So, it might entirely be my own fault, and not yours :) On a related note, I didn't initially like the way every item was scattered all over the place. But after some time, I learned to appreciate it. It kept me moving and made the fights interesting and perhaps more menacing, as I had to constantly look for ammo in order not to lose control over the monsters.

There were some minor texture bugs here and there, nothing major. windward.dk/TDR/z0k_fonze.zip]Here's a zip file with some screenshots that shown them.

To conclude: Awesome level with terrific visuals, a strong concept and wonderful gameplay! It's a worthy tribute to Ty, so thank you very much for submitting it!

[Fonze]

Oh man, what an FDA! I lol'd more than a few times, like when you jumped down to the teleporter... no way back ;p

I'm glad you like the level so far, Chris! I'm glad you liked the sneaking elements and the exploration. It's certainly a different way of doing things, heh.

As for the ammo, I'm afraid you did pass a decent amount of it, but kinda a weird twist here, I just removed a decent amount of it from my testing last night when my ammo was going out of control. Perhaps I should add what I deleted back in, or something like that. I did do a fair amount of scattering of pick-ups and always avoid constant symmetrical/asymmetrical placement to aid with the exploration factor. I also tried to stay away from large ammo pickups for the most part, though as you said perhaps the exploration needed to gather ammo was a bit overboard. I suppose I'll have to see another person's FDA or hear their thoughts before I totally rework the ammo, but I will likely add some more in/move some to more obvious locations.

Thanks for those screenshots as well! The bricks' vertical alignments are kinda a tough one, to be honest. Z0k did the vast majority of the texturing and at first I was of your mindset, but due to the architecture of it, aligning them vertically to the floors and ceiling would throw off alignment right next door. Take that first room, for example, those grey bricks persist around that whole room as a slight drop-down from the ceiling. Right now, the walls are vertically aligned to that layer of bricks; changing them... idk, it just looks a bit strange to me. I'm pretty sure Z0k did that on-purpose, so I'll get with him on that. I just pictured it as the brick layers built the walls before the floor, or maybe put the bricks into the floor (and ceiling) for extra structural stability ;p I'm being stupid now, but I'll get with Z0k on that.

2) For the next screenshot with the tan bricks, good catch there, that was a messed up vertical alignment. Fixed now.

3) Good catch on that HOM. Idk how I missed that, but that mistake was all me... yeah, I get credit for something, sweet ^^

4) I'm not sure what you mean by this screenshot. Granted, once again this is something Z0k did, but I thought it looked cool with all the metal dividers. A little more clarification here, though I'll talk to Z0k about this as well.

5) Good catch once again! Fixed. Now this picture gets into more of the vertical alignment as well. I'm making screenshots to show what I mean.

6, 7, & 8) These types of things are all over the brown brick areas. At first it bugged me as well, but after trying to fix a few areas I was more satisfied with how it looked before and began to appreciate the variety in brick-size. Still, I'll make another attempt to rectify those, as well as others harder to see during a playthrough.

9) Wow, fantastic catch! I think I took care of it. I found 2 in the real dimension, conveyor belt room. Is that where you saw it?

10) Another great catch. I found that one in the real dimension and its equivalent in the dark dimension. Fixed both. There are also metal textures that kinda still bug me all over the place, all are the same as right above where that shot was taken. It's not a big deal, but the "holes" in the metal texture don't seem aligned to me. Still, I'll fix that later, as it's everywhere and quite hard to see in a playthrough because it's above the player's head (minor thing).

11) Great question; why is that sector bright? It's not adjacent to a light. Better yet, why not darker? Fixed.

12 & 13) No, those should not be visible. Matter of fact, forget about them... they don't exist *waves hand* Also, thanks for that catch and it's fixed now.

14) Good job dude! Also, I wonder what secrets you found... lol. The 91% of kills; those monsters you missed I'm assuming are monsters you skipped and not broken traps. Am I correct that you skipped a few? I haven't found a way yet to break the traps and the vast majority have a back-up where necessary. I just want to be sure that they are not breakable, as with any teleports there are always chances for bugs (like the conveyor belts, heh).

*Edit*
Screenshots for discussion:

Spoiler

Before - Start area lines up with the bricks on the ceiling


After - Start area with bricks aligned to the floor and ceiling


Before - Ledge


After - Ledge aligned with floor and ceiling makes window look strange


Before - Hallway


After - Hallway aligned with floor/ceiling; looks good until...


The effects of the previous set, before is on the right and after is on the left. At this point you can start to see that the effect is unavoidable.


Before - Window


After - Window


Before - Outside


After - Outside

Idk, I kinda like a few of them, but things get tricky at other parts, I'll have to talk to Z0k about it.

[Chris Hansen]

Haha! There are two constants in this world: The Earth rotates and my demos are hilarious! :D It's nice to be able to spread a little joy and happiness into the world!

I can see what you mean about the STONE2 and STONE3 textures. It's a bit of a predicament. If it was my level, I would chose the method that makes the textures align "properly" the most places and change the textures into something else where it offsets badly. A sort of a compromise, if you can call it that.

Nevermind what I said about the ammo. It's a good idea to trust your own judgement and hopfully, you'll get a second opinion soon.

Here's two screenshots, that show 25 of the 27 monsters I missed to get 100% kills. The remaining 2 are a Manc on some crates and an Imp, I think. Some of the trapped monsters, as shown by the arrows, aren't moving, so perhaps, there are some traps that are broken:

Spoiler

Here's a screenshot that sort of shows what I mean about this particular area. I removed a bit of the SUPPORT3, replaced some of it with STEP6 and moved a couple of lines:

Spoiler

Secrets?
- I found the blue armor in sector 225.
- The Super Shotgun and assorted goods in the Ty memoriam room (very, very cool looking area btw! Excellent!). But apparently, this isn't marked as a secret area?
- The Soulsphere in sector 5346.
- I thought I found the secret in sector 5317 near the green armor, but not according to prBoom... hmmm, my brain's getting old.

Btw. when I use the find and replace feature in DB on the map, it finds 5 secrets, but prBoom reports that there are 6... what the? :)

[Fonze]

Lol ya ole headless chicken ^^ nah seriously I could watch one of those any time.

About those grey bricks, I spoke to Z0k and he said that he felt they looked better the way they are, being halfway covered by the floor. But if more people don't like it he'll come back for a day to fix 'em.

I'll do a few more tests on the ammo throughout the week, assuming more fdas do not come in.

That's interesting about the monsters not moving... Did you hit the triggers for them? I've tested in a few different ports and never ran into that issue. Also, those traps both have audio back-ups, so when you reach a certain point they should hear you and want to come out. I'll check those two areas tonight.

I like the picture you did. When I spoke with Z0k he said he wasnt a huge fan of the cement there. Quite frankly, I suppose I'm just easy to please on visuals, because I think the way it is now and the way you did it both look cool.

*Edit* I should note I meant he said he wasn't a fan of the cement in the first place, not referring to what you did. *Edit End*

Ah yes, there were 6 secrets marked, but it was supposed to be 8. Like you said, the Ty secret was incorrectly unmarked and there was a chainsaw early in the level I forgot to mark as well. That 6th secret you could not find had a generalized effect, that's why it didn't show up in Find and Replace; the special on it is, I want to say 126, or something like that. I'm glad you got the secret by that green armor, I was worried that would be a bit too obscure.

[Chris Hansen]

Fonze said:

That's interesting about the monsters not moving... Did you hit the triggers for them? I've tested in a few different ports and never ran into that issue. Also, those traps both have audio back-ups, so when you reach a certain point they should hear you and want to come out. I'll check those two areas tonight.

That's kinda hard to answer because I don't know what triggers the monster closets or how they are awakened ;) I guess I could check it out in the editor if you like? :)

[Fonze]

You could if you'd like, don't matter. That trap was a fun one to design because it's built off a trigger, with a back-up sound trigger built into another trap's sound back-up, lol. Traps within traps within... But in this case that's just for the back-ups; it's important to have back-ups guaranteed to not go off early. I do weird schtuff with traps, man.

What port were you using? I've tested it in a few, but mainly PrBoom+. I just did a run in PrBoom+ and killed all but that one elusive last monster; I'd've searched for him 'til I found him, but I was recording a demo for the Hell of it, so I only searched for a minute. Normally that last monster really bugs me, because where the f*ck is he? But I've tested this enough times to know it's no mistake; just my error while playing.

Spoiler

Picture 1 is related to the nearby chainsaw. You must not have grabbed it. There are two trigger-lines just barely south of the chainsaw.

Picture 2 is related to the plasma gun secret. There is a long, diagonal trigger-line on the south-east of that area. I hope this secret was not too hard to find.

[Chris Hansen]

I'm gonna send you my savegame file in a PM, so you can load it up in prBoom+ 2.5.13 - which I used to play the level - to see if it can assist you in your debugging.

I did get the chainsaw, which is lowered by a nearby hidden switch. I did actually wonder also why it wasn't tagged as a secret.

I did not find the plasmagun.

[Fonze]

Ah ok, thanks man! I'll pull this up here in an hour or so and take a look at what's going on.

However, off the top of my head it sounds like you got the outside chainsaw (good job finding that tiny switch :) ), whereas the one associated with those monsters is in the dark dimension. Even though there's not much need for a 2nd chainsaw, with the first being secret (you were right, it was supposed to be secret, but I think our attitude at first towards it was an unofficial secret. Still, I made it official after your report on the Ty room not being secret) and the level being fairly sizable, I figured I'd put one in for those who didn't find that little switch; I missed it my first time playing that part of the map, lol. But then again, I'm dumb, so you must also account for that, heh.

The plasma gun is a tough but to crack; once again, I hope it's not too hard. There are a couple clues, but perhaps I could also add some blinking lights, though I worry at what point will it become too easy. If you got the secret by the green armor up there then you already past the tough part.

Anyway, thanks for the save file! I'll post my thoughts (or lack thereof) here in a bit.

[Angry Saint]

I've started working on my map, implementing most of your suggestions.

I still have doubts about the final island... I would like to put there a better final battle, but I have no idea how.

Some suggestions?

[Fonze]

Start by making something fun for you to play. Then tailor it to fit the area you have designed.

If you do not want players to retreat back across the bridge then force a way to make sure that doesn't happen, like a drop-down or a one-way port. Once you have the player's limitations set, start thinking of how the monsters worked there. The SM would tear a player apart in the medium-quarters of that final rooftop. The AV was about the same, though the SM winds up hitting all the other monsters, so the mancubi turn into the player's meat shields. On the flip side, the revs are only at their normal effectiveness, but added to the fact that there is no cover, other monsters are the only thing that could serve as obstacles to their homing missiles. I do not remember any cover up there aside from the stairs you come up on, this makes the homing missiles build-up over time and makes for a tense battle.

When I played the map, my first instinct was to run backwards and take cover from the arch-viles, or to just make a break for the exit.

Oh, speaking of which, remember what I said about that trap being easily walked around. Make sure you fix that.

Back to the monsters; I just am not a huge fan of AV's in areas without cover. I suppose it's understandable if there is a way to cause infighting before the AV gets his shot off, but I always wind up thinking about : what if a player made it this far in the map, is at a decent 50% health, but low armor, (or 25% health and good armor) then gets hit by a guaranteed AV shot. I really thought about this with this one in particular because there are 2 AV's, one on either side. Now, I lived when I played by retreating like a madman to the stairs, waited a sec, then retreated all the way back and picked them off as they came near. I may have gotten the SM to shoot one of the AV's, but I forget at this point if it succeeded. I don't think that was what you intended, but that's what I did. Once I was at the end of the bridge, I was kinda screwed as far as a direct assault while all the monsters were alive, but after I picked off all the ones that came my way, I was able to run up to the stairs and take out the SM.

At the same time, if we assume the player is well-off, the final fight could have been a good last stand effort, assuming the player did it just right.

It could make things interesting to put in a blur sphere and cut off any attempts at retreating for that fight, assuming it stays similar to how it is now.

Knowing the way that each monster acts in that environment, however, you can tailor it to fit how you want it. I don't know exactly, but I think your goal was to entice the player with a view of the exit, but any attempts to run straight for it are usually met with death, barring extreme luck and good preparation. But I do not know what strategy you had in mind for once the trap has been sprung, so everything I say can only be taken with a grain of salt. Still, those are my thoughts, albeit on something I played over a month ago. Perhaps with further discussion I could be of more use.



To Chris: I looked at your saved game and my thoughts before were correct. There were 2 places you hadn't gone, though you may have gone to the 2nd chainsaw and not needed it, so never went up to it. I think I will have to put something else there to entice the player on over, though the trap was designed for the player to have auto-switched to the chainsaw at the start.