THT: Threnody - released!

[dobu gabu maru]

Fonze said:

Btw, the misalignment was in the dark dimension, so that makes me again question that clunky part. Were you talking about the same dimension that had the misalignment?

Definitely could've been—you know the map better than me, and I probably have the two sections mixed in my head. And my clunkiness is just me referring to how awkward I feel the gameplay becomes when you see a revenant disappear in front of your face so you have to spin around and see if he came in behind you. Could've sword it was the "real" dimension though.

[Fonze]

Ah, I know what you're talking about now; that's the HK in the first crate room (yellow circle), the rev in the wormhole building of the Hell dimension, and kinda the HK in the purple circle that just disappears (goes to a closet) and appears to slowly raise out of the blood in roughly the same spot as a baron instead, heh (gotta have fun while you map). I mostly just did that to get the point across that the wormhole was affecting the map itself, sort of a hint to the blue armor secret in the very first building, as an indicator of what's to come, and just as a good ole fashioned head game. They're meant to be a bit jarring while not affecting much at all. Given that, they're very minor things and I suppose if enough people object I'll get rid of 'em, but I like them being very minor, mostly visual things and this map's bark should appear to be worse than its bite. Idk; maybe it's like that maze you built, like you said, hehe. Which btw I like; I just still don't understand how to get down to the little, lowered square-shaped area with 4 bonuses down there (and the IoS mouth still confuses the Hell outta me, though I know it's aesthetic, lol). The maze itself isn't big and wasn't complicated, so I found it to be fun to explore on my first run, as well as a recent run of it I did with a buddy. He enjoyed it, too. Granted, he's not an avid Doomer, but he had nothing but good things to say about every map in this set.

Oh btw, speaking of Enwrong: I really gottta compliment the 1-2-3 switches getting to the manc ledge; that was such a sweet design with all of the effects used.

[dobu gabu maru]

Hit the switch opposite of the IoS mouth, then go here, and bada bing bada boom maze solved. The first version had a couple more steps, but the second iteration cuts out the dirty little backwards warping the player has to do.

[Liberation]

Howdy all, I'm presenting my contribution named, Labour of despair. Its a hellish themed map with the emphasis on non-linear, reasonable open map design. This was the ult doom map mentioned a while back.

Anyway, Chris has been giving some awesome feedback so far and I've decided its time to let other have a go and give some suggestions. I do need to detail a few more areas etc, however its difficulty and the final area that I'm looking for some help in particular.

edit: Link obsolete

Please fire away with any ideas etc on how to improve this map. Its been good fun making it!

[Fonze]

Screenies look nice Liberation; I'll give it a play after work and toss out some ideas.

[Chris Hansen]

Just ran through it again on UV, Liberation. Here's the demo in case you're curious to see how I did this time :)

Noticed a couple of bugs:

- two linedefs in sector 1733 (blue key door) are tagged causing a weird effect if both of them are pressed.
- the player can jump from sector 1490 to the ledge with Imps (sectors 1508, 1681, 1682 etc.)
- linedefs 6415, 6418, 6421 and 6394 needs to be lower unpegged.

Suggestion:

- make the blood pools/rivers in the final arena "sticky" like you do in other parts of the map. This way, the fight with the Mancs, Barons and CD is more threatening.

[Liberation]

Chris Hansen said:

Just ran through it again on UV, Liberation. Here's the demo in case you're curious to see how I did this time :)

Noticed a couple of bugs:

- two linedefs in sector 1733 (blue key door) are tagged causing a weird effect if both of them are pressed.
- the player can jump from sector 1490 to the ledge with Imps (sectors 1508, 1681, 1682 etc.)
- linedefs 6415, 6418, 6421 and 6394 needs to be lower unpegged.

Suggestion:

- make the blood pools/rivers in the final arena "sticky" like you do in other parts of the map. This way, the fight with the Mancs, Barons and CD is more threatening.

Thank you very much! Everything you mentioned has been sorted. the last area has deep "sticky" blood now as well, some 20 tags later ha!

Edit: Link obsolete

Beta number 3 then, enjoy :-)

[baja blast rd.]

The friction effect is a total non-starter for many players -- I stopped playing after about a dozen seconds.

[Chris Hansen]

Seriously!? He uses it a couple of places and it's not in obligatory places the player has to go. But I guess you would have noticed that if you'd played the entire level.

[Liberation]

rdwpa said:

The friction effect is a total non-starter for many players -- I stopped playing after about a dozen seconds.

That's a shame, if its really an issue then it can be removed rather easily, its set at 76% which I thought was reasonable. The only area its unavoidable is the last area, with the other areas its up to the player whether they go into the deep blood.

Could I ask if you could play through the rest and provide some more feedback?

[baja blast rd.]

Chris Hansen: You start in the stuff and have to contend with it outdoors. Merely having to move through the stuff at all is really uncomfortable.

Anyway, here's a full playthrough.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/evoearri1kcrbrv/lodb3_rdwpa_demo.lmp

I like the evasion concept -- it's a type of level we need to see more of, but as is, the map has a couple of serious problems that need to be remedied, even if I totally ignore the friction.

1.) The cyber can be effortlessly cheesed. I was kind of disappointed I didn't get to finish him off with bullets or shells. :D

2.) Apparently the level ends after the blue key thing. That was unexpected, given that fifty monsters or so were still alive. I saw a red and yellow key door. I'm assuming that those might be the "stock up" route, containing the chaingun and rocket launcher. But the final arena isn't particularly hard to just bypass entirely -- here is a pacifist exit in about a minute -- and it can be easily handled with shotgun + plasma rifle alone, so a significant % of playthroughs are bound to end with a feeling of "that was it?"

A few minor problems:

1.) There are bullets and rockets, but it's quite easy to not find the chaingun or rocket launcher at all. The chaingun at least should be more obvious, to make elective bullet clean-up less tedious.

2.) Those 64-wide ramparts or whatever they are called are kind of awkward to move around on.

3.) The gang of monsters behind the YK/RK barricades infights somewhat comically when they can't really hurt the player.

4.) The castle area could use another secret or two. This is a perfect level for it.

5.) There are sky transfer errors in the blue key podium.

As far as the friction blood goes, I feel it doesn't amount to any sort of a meaningful threat, so it has no other purpose than an occasional irritant.

[Liberation]

Ill start right now by saying I've cocked up and uploaded the map with player 1 start in the wrong place, you miss like 70% of the map.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/sll1h7npv0l6nzg/Lodb4.wad

Sorry rdwpa but I did totally fuck up, so if you wouldn't mind trying it again with the new link, I do apologise.

[baja blast rd.]

LOL. Oh man.

This is actually a pretty good level. :D

Anyway, too tired now to type out lengthy feedback, so here's the demo.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/mbtwji66cw626rg/lodb4_rdwpademo.lmp

[Fonze]

Hey Liberation, I'm a bit behind on this, but I made you an FDA. I used v2; didn't notice the update. Little under 32 minutes total, 3 deaths; final run starts ~13:07 in. Ignore the random unnecessary shooting; sometimes my thumb touches the touchpad of this laptop. Wasn't really paying attention to the monster count at the end, finally saw 2 mobs left and went to switch to the PG while trying to go for a quick a swig and, well, I shouldn't have looked away from the screen, hehe.

This map was really nice-looking; great architecture, detailing, and texturing! On a random side-note: I saw your use of this door:



and wanted to see what flat you had used because I used the same door for my current map, was a bit unhappy with its fitting and settled for some trickery for the door flat:



which is totally unnecessary and I'm not happy that it works differently in zDoom-based ports than in our intended Boom, heh, but its use in your map had me curious to see if its use was typically with a wood flat or a metal one (though I suspect wood due to the bottom few pixels. B/s aside, I noticed this:



Figured you'd want to know :)



As for the gameplay of the map; things were a bit easy; spacious enough with few significant threats left me feeling unpressured for the majority of the map. Which was nice; I don't get the chance to wander around such pretty maps so happy-go-luckily often. Still didn't prevent me from making some mistakes ;D but at least I felt safe while I died, heh.

I liked the small fight right after the yellow/red door. If you watch my first run, I went left and saw the mob of bulls, turned around to finally check my back (which I should have done upon turning the corner, heh) then got sandwiched between bulls and HK's. That was a fun mistake ^^ (It might be fun to make that a trap; player crosses RK/YK threshold; door closes behind, both bulls and HK's see the player at the same time, sandwich.

A few things I thought could be worked on:

- The final battle; it's only a cyber in a wide open arena with plenty of cover. I realize that this is likely what you were referring to when you said you weren't sure where to go with it; perhaps, given the tons of plasma ammo throughout the map and secret BFG, you could start with a slaughter-ish mob of low-healthed enemies, like revs or imps, from various directions, in particular everywhere the cyber isn't, then supplement them with some more arachs or mancs up top as turrets. Few flying enemies, or a random assortment of lost souls scattered about should make things a bit hairy for the area. Pop in an AV or three when the player grabs the blue key/hits the blue switch to revive some of those ground forces while a couple PE's distract the player. Might not be the best option, but it could be a decent place to start; if nothing else it'd prolly spark an idea or two, seeing the monsters work both with the environment and each other. There was a map in Mutiny that had something that vaguely reminded me of that, though it was a bit more cramped an arena and had lots of boxes around the corners, providing good cover while also giving the player a great place to get trapped and flanked. Not that that part applies here, just thinking of the monster set.

- Baron usage; it killed me when I'd be presented with a single baron; at least give him 4 or 5 HK friends immediately behind him to make better use of him. As a side-note, I just watched rdwpa's latest demo and saw that most barons were removed. I'd like to say I liked them for the incidental combat and just repopulation of the first open area; I'm just thinking they looked lonely. On the flip side, upgrading them to a more threatening monster wouldn't be a bad idea, either.

Speaking of barons, I liked both the 64-wide rampart and the 2 barons guarding it. I enjoy 64-wide hallways; that's just me and all, but I see nothing wrong with them as it's still relatively easy to dodge projectiles in them if the player stands all the way to one side and alternates from there. The "sticky" pools of blood didn't bother me, either. In a way, given the current monster set, the sticky floors were a great addition; most monsters around them seemed to be of the "straight-firing projectile" -type and they really needed a boost in threat. Making the pools sticky seems a good way to accomplish it.

- Traps. I feel like there were zero in this map. (Well, aside from the 2 HK's in the beginning, now that I think about it) Wouldn't be a bad thing if it were difficult without them, (and let me say that even without them, the monsters and geometry were well-made to support all mobs being right there from the start, with several points of pressure created from them) it's just that the player expects them at the choreographed moments, like the key grabs, the SSG, and the major-progression points, doesn't find them, then continues to not find them even at seemingly-random points. Maybe not every map needs traps, but I think, given the difficulty of this map and thinking of its placement in E3, this one could use a few.

- Many enemies would be better if upgraded to more threatening mobs.

- Many points in this really could have used more pressure on the player.



Now, none of those things are really bad things and even if they were, the list would be much, much longer if I included every good thing I liked about this map, but this isn't the time for tons of compliments, given that you're looking for feedback :) Hope this all helps.

[EffinghamHuffnagel]

Liberation said:

Ill start right now by saying I've cocked up and uploaded the map with player 1 start in the wrong place, you miss like 70% of the map.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/sll1h7npv0l6nzg/Lodb4.wad

Using ZDoom. This was fun. Nice architecture and texturing. I liked the Mancs and Imps shooting at you from so far away right at the start. You can avoid the fireballs, but you have to pay attention to them. Much fairer than hitscanners. I really liked the multiple paths to the Cyber arena at the end. Might want to add a way to open the bars on the east from the arena side rather than making the player backtrack so far to find that path (for completists). Maybe tie them to the Blue Key switch. Same on the west side with the blood steps/falls. Maybe those could be lifts. It also felt odd to have that big an end arena with so few monsters. Getting the Mancs and Barons to in-fight was easy, same with the Barons and the Cyber. I certainly expected more things to show up when I hit the Blue Key switch; walking monsters coming out of the exit room (and barred cave) and flying ones coming out of the blood pools you lowered on the switch towers.

Minor things.

On the east side of the arena are two Rocket Boxes in a raised area. You can walk along the wall from there and get to the Imp platform. Because you're against the skywall, some textures/flats get cut off. It looks odd.

You can use the short column the Red Key sits on as a step and go over the wall. Stuck.

Sector 955, the bridge which connects the north and south areas - on the southern end is a small step. From there you can SR over the bridge wall on both sides. To the east is okay because you can get to the stairs. To the west is the problem because the blood 'steps' are more than 24 units higher. Stuck.

I wouldn't actually change any of these things because all four of these areas could also be made into valid secrets.

For the Red Key area you could add ammo and an escape teleport close by, but a secret around the corner at the SE end on top of the blood falls with a switch which lowers the falls on the south side of the SE tower. I actually thought this outdoor area was the secret when I first found it.

For the bridge you could add some ammo right next to it on the east side as the secret; and on the west side add a few additional blood steps so the player could get to sector 864, the pit with the Rockets and Potions, making that pit a secret and changing the steps out to a wall/lift usable only from the pit side. Those additional bridge 'paths' would also be useful for deathmatch. Could also make sector 1372, the little island with GutsAndBones2, a hidden teleport to another secret; maybe to the top of the blood falls in the previous secret instead of the switch.

The Imp platform would just need some texture/sector fixes.

Almost forgot. On the east side of the arena is a Box of Shells in the blood. Because of the transfer sector heights, the box was almost completely hidden under the blood. I ran over it before I saw it. Wasted ammo.

Map also needs difficulty balancing. Otherwise, good map.

[baja blast rd.]

A few notes on v4:

1.) One compromise between keeping the friction blood as is and removing the effect entirely is including rocky footpaths, expediting the process of getting from A -> B.

2.) Aforementioned cyber encounter should be modified such that hitting two switches allows the player to simply fire bullets and shells over the barricade while the cyber is totally harmless. This can be done in a simple way with voodoo dolls. You can even preserve the effect of having the barricade lower when just one switch is pressed, as a warning that a cyber is back there.

3.) The map looks good. One thing I noticed however is the common "everything tops out at the same height" problem -- some use of occasional higher or lower buildings would make the view even better.

[Liberation]

Ok, to start off, thanks for all the feedback and comments! Watching videos is kinda new to me and its been great, I've seen/heard bugs that no-ones mentioned yet which is cool and just seeing how people play differently is also really awesome as well.

@Fonze- Stupid mistakes like the door you've mentioned is why its good getting people to play your map! that will be sorted, also the baron that's turns up behind it after the yellow key is grabbed is broken by mistake and will be fixed. That's the sort of trap I like, "player grabs the key, nothing happens, safe, oh the doors just opened...shit" :-)

Repopulation of the first open area is what I was aiming for after getting the keys, probably adding some hk's to back the barons up would help beef things up abit.

@EffinghamHuffnagel- I think lowering the bars with the blue key switch is a very good idea, I didn't have completists in mind nor even thought of deathmatch I must admit! The imp platform is out of bounds and im not sure I want to expand any of the other areas, I'm thinking that could be something to bear in mind for my next map(s).

Using the red column to leap into the outside, is something I've never thought of, be sorting that out lol. EDIT: I might make it a secret, now that I think about it...

@rdwpa- Rocky footpaths I think will detract from the friction sectors, however stepping stones in the lower route to the blue area might help players that are skillful/careful move through this area better.

The final area.... Some ideas I've acquired after reading feedback,
1. Have the cyber spawn after the last switch is thrown. poss even another cyber spawns after the blue switch is activated...
2. Archys, after maybe the 3rd switch is activated.
3. flying creatures, coming out the blood pools in the switch towers is a cool idea.

Any other things that have been mentioned that I have not commented on have been noted and will be getting sort.

Thanks again guys, your feedback has been invaluable and a pleasure to read through!

[Steve D]

Hi, Liberation. I was tooling around, saw your screenshots, and decided to give V4 of your map a whirl.

First, the screenies don't do it justice. The map is much more gorgeous when you're actually in it. I especially like the way you staged the blue key. It was like something out of death-destiny's Grime, looking somehow dirty and beautiful at once. I also admired your work with Bfall on columns.

I liked the friction effect in the deep blood. It gave a more realistic feel when shooting at Imps up to their waist in hemoglobin. It was set in such a way that it had little impact on my ability to dodge projectiles, and I fearlessly battled Hell Knights above from the blood below and never took a hit.

The overall action was . . . sedate, to put it mildly. ;) Here we have this ginormous 2,000-sector map with only 113 monsters in it, and very few of them are Revvies, Chaingunners or Arachnotrons, all of which are good at controlling large, open areas. We have a lot of Imps and Hell Nobles, which are not so good at that job, and they also constitute a high percentage of the map's snipers, tossing fireballs from great distances -- somewhere out beyond the moons of Jupiter, perhaps. ;) You do have to keep a weather eye out for this barrage, but it was easily avoided.

IMO, the ultimate sin, at least playing in GZDoom, was the heartless sacrifice of the Cyberdemon. After I hit the second switch -- and it was a neat gimmick to have the blood pools lower along with the blue key column -- I heard his roar and jumped off the platform in case a rocket was already on its way. Once I realized I was safe, I sized up the situation. There was Cybie with his head and shoulders above the wall, firing rockets uselessly into the rock. I could, of course, be a brave Doomer and finish the sequence, then tackle him out in the open. Or, I could be a shivering coward and slaughter King Monster right there while he was helpless. As you might guess, I was a shivering coward. ;D Give me the opportunity for an easy Cyb kill and I'll take it every time.

I'd say that moment made the map seem like a sightseeing tour. No need to spoil the scenery with vicious combat. ;) The map is so large that you could easily double the monster count without much impact on the combat, unless you concentrated on using more dangerous enemies like Revvies and Chaingunners. Further, most of the monsters come at you from straight ahead. There are no traps and hardly any moments where you get flanked. There are also instances where you open a large door to discover it is guarded by heavy monsters in sniping positions, a classic invitation to door-camping.

In spite of all this, I really enjoyed the map. You kept the ammo tight in the early going, which lent some drama to the encounters. I also died once when I opened the Sector 233 door in the eastern section, and something laughed. That caught me totally off guard and I wondered if I had just woke up a monster-spitter, and while I was spazzing over that, a Chaingunner waddled out of the darkness. I killed him, only to see a Manc stagger out from the shadows. I tried backing out through the door, but it had just closed, so I got stuck and was fried.

I see that you already have plans to upgrade the final battle. If it was me, I'd use 3 Cybs plus a decent horde of lesser enemies, with ammo commensurate to the challenge. But there's a lot of map before that. It's of course up to you to decide what kind of feel you want for a project of this magnitude. As it stands, to me it seems like a shockingly beautiful episode opener or a breather map after a brutal one. Nothing wrong with that. I love playing brutal maps, but then again, I'm more likely to replay easier ones like BTSX E1 or Fava Beans. I very much believe that beauty is its own reward, so I'll take less intense combat in order to revisit a gorgeous map or mapset.

If you would like to turn up the combat intensity, I'd offer this advice -- think of how air forces use the clock analogy -- objects directly in front of you are at your twelve o'clock, objects directly behind you are at your six o'clock. 90 degrees to your right is your three o'clock and 90 to your left is your nine o'clock. IMO, too high a percentage of monsters come from your twelve o'clock, which leads to the "shooting gallery" effect. You don't have to turn or make fast movements, just back up and side-step. But if you were simultaneously attacked from your twelve o'clock, three o'clock and eight o'clock, that's a much tougher encounter, especially if the attacks are coming from different heights as well. A lot of this map is actually walking through corridors, which gives the opportunity for traps opening in front and behind the player. The old reliable teleport trap can also be your friend.

In other news, I really liked how the one sneaky Green Armor took you above and behind the start area. Nice touch for that exploratory feel. The BFG secret was nicely done. Pretty easy to find, but still cool. Given that this is a large, semi-exploratory map, I'd have liked to seen the exploratory aspect taken further, with at least 6 more secrets, and possibly some cool chained secrets, Ultimate Doom style. Speaking of Ultimate Doom, and I gather this was originally a UDoom map, the area leading to the Chainsaw reminded me a bit of Against Thee Wickedly, always a good thing, IMO.

One oddity is that you can walk a ledge to the Imp platform at Sector 1508, but there's no goodies up there, plus you can see the sky texture tiling at the bloodfalls. I'd eliminate the access ledge unless you have further plans for this area. And on the nitpicky front, Linedefs 3446 and 3448 are vertically misaligned.

Anyway, I've babbled enough. Bottom line, I look forward to seeing more of your work. :)

[pcorf]

My 2nd map is nearing completion. Will post some screenshots of it in a few days time. It will be a small E3 map (Eternal-Hexen style) with only 1 key.

[Liberation]

Hi SteveD, thanks for the excellent feedback, I've began working on the items you have brought up, unfortunately I'm a little pressed for time this coming week so today I've been busy with the final battle, adding some detail and a few bugs etc

Adding secret areas and a few extra nasty's will be in the next and last beta.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/37zlp2txyea3v50/Lodb5a.wad

Should be a lot more challenging I think, no more sniping cyberdemons lol!

[JDoyle]

Hi everyone. I've just put together a remix of the music from Map03 in Icarus, Quarry. I thought it might be a fitting tribute as that was one of Ty's maps. Please feel free to use it.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B79YBwbj0yrTczR3bzR0VXRwTlU

[Chris Hansen]

Very cool track, Jeremy! Thank you for letting us use it. It's cool to see that even after almost a year of development, new stuff is still being submitted! I'll add your track to the midi list :)

[Velvetic]

Here, another midi for the project:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fn4tigbyu09w64u/%27Flood%20The%20City%27%20by%20Isotype.mid?dl=0

[Chris Hansen]

Thank you, Kevin! Very nice track indeed! I'll see if we can't find some levels for these new awesome tracks. Perhaps I can use one of them for the level I'm currently making and perhaps for Liberation's map, as I don't think he's got a midi for his. And yes, I'm making another map for this project. Fingers crossed that I can find the time to complete it. At least now, I have a couple of good midis to choose from for it!

Spoiler

[pcorf]

Screenshots from my second map.

Layout is pretty much complete, confident it will be complete before the deadline.

[Fonze]

Chris: that is a very pretty map; I look forward to seeing it completed! You should have included that SP_ROCK in the screenie, though ;p

Paul: I like the look of your new one so far :) my favorite part is the Mickey mouse heads on the floor of the second and fourth screenies, hehe. Can't wait to explore it!

JDoyle and KevinHez, my phone wont play midis, but I'll check the songs out later on :)

[Chris Hansen]

Fonze said:

Chris: that is a very pretty map; I look forward to seeing it completed! You should have included that SP_ROCK in the screenie, though ;p

Stop bullying me! I said I'll fix, so get off my back, monkey!

@Paul: I like the dark and foreboding atmosphere in your map! Looking forward to check it out and supply you with one of my usual stupid FDAs!

[pcorf]

Chris Hansen said:

@Paul: I like the dark and foreboding atmosphere in your map! Looking forward to check it out and supply you with one of my usual stupid FDAs!

Well you wanted an E3 map and Eternal/Hexen style and I think it has come out pretty well. The monsters are not in yet. This map is fairly small and is intended to be the starting map of E3. It also uses my song "Medi Evil"

[Chris Hansen]

And it looks like I got it! *thumbs up*!

[Liberation]

Loving the screenshots pcorf, very nice work!

As for the midis, both sound great but I'm thinking JDoyle's remix would suit my map better.