THT: Threnody - released!

OK, I finally managed to get Tyviec edit-able, and, as promised, edited three encounters (the opening, the HK ambush in the first temple, and the docks battle) to show how to use monsters properly to prevent it from devolving into a circle-strafe fest. I'm still too lazy to add proper lock-ins to the docks or the HK battle, so just pretend you're locked in, heh.

https://www.mediafire.com/?82dxey6nvp9tv9p

The docks is far from perfect (once you get your foothold, it's way too easy to sit on one end and just clean up), but it should get the idea across.

EDIT: Also, pretend that the water is insta-death, I forgot to change that to get rid of that exploit, heh.

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http://www.mediafire.com/download/cqzd15dlaa88wc7/ce_rdwpa.lmp

Fun stuff. I guess the megaspheres are there to make it ultra-easy, for the sake of demonstration? As a mediocre player, I appreciated the thought. Yeah the dock could use a third AV or something (ignore the part where I wedge myself between the folds of a couple mancs during cleanup for no apparent reason :p). I expected you to block the door with a manc in the room with the other megasphere.

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Interesting observations Cynical. I agree with you on some points, but there are a few that I differ from.

Mancubi missiles tend to shoot barely left/right of the player, that's hardly leading them. A better way to put it would be that they launch more projectiles in the air in a wider arc. Circle strafing is still easy to do. As far as Golachab goes, when I go in blind to something that someone else is telling me, "you need to play this because it's just wtf." Then I load it up and before I can see I'm already dead... at that point you stop caring about trying, heh.

As for the arachnotrons, I gotta disagree with you there. Circle-strafing might be less possible in the way you used them in the beginning on the bridge, but you can still figure-8 strafe them. Let's be honest; that's pretty much the same thing as circle-strafing. Crossing no more than 3 beams at a time is pretty easy when you run away from them.

I gotta disagree with starting a player with the SSG for anything but a later map in a megawad or a slaughtermap. Where's the damned intro?! You can't just ignore treating the lower-tiered monsters as more than a wandering threat. Hell, a room of imps can be a tough thing to manage with just a pistol, a fist, and 50 rounds. Or a room of cacos and bulls to a shotgun, or something like that.

I don't think that all maps should rely on straight killing the player at every turn; it's just not fun to have to resort to saving after every fight. Take the HK room, it was a pretty effective trap with just the columns and the HK's in PrBoom+. Maybe it was a bit easy in zDoom, but that's not what this is designed for. Having 2 arch-viles in that room with even just 4 HK's was fun (don't get me wrong), but was also designed specifically to kill the player. Not that it's not possible, not that it's not somewhat easy if you know what you're doing and what's going on, but it's gonna kill the vast majority of players in PrBoom+ playing the map for the first time. Stuff like that is ok, don't get me wrong, but shouldn't be overly used. Of course that's my subjective viewpoint (as is all of this), so it means nothing in the long run ;)

Despite all of the non-homing, one-projectile enemies (which I agree could be improved on in certain areas, like a rev turret instead of a HK, arach snipers instead of imps), I wouldn't call this lazy. I had fun with it and found it to have a few quite sticky parts as it is. Also, I liked the variety of encounters between stuff like revs/mancs/AV's/arachs/ and HK's/cacos/imps/hitscan.

I like arenas that let the player leave if they freak out. Perhaps a punishment of bad position (like the final fight with the SM) or time/attention-required is better than locking the player in. My only caveat is that the trap should be designed to be fought out from the same relative position (or close by if the terrain demands it). But not everybody approaches things the same. In the cases in this map, with doors being the way out, a somewhat off-the-beaten-path switch to open it would be better (or even a switch to uncover the door switch), so straight exiting is impossible.

I think you forget that things should be somewhat forgiving, to a point. Too little forgiveness in a wad makes for a very tedious slog. As it is, I did not find this map to be tedious. After getting the SSG in the beginning (which also makes the regular shotgun make sense there), the path to the chaingun goes quick. The HK battle was nice and tough when you don't have much time to get your bearing. Then you get the chance to run everywhere, with monsters popping up every now and again (with the health just right enough to be tight); it kept me on edge.

I will say that I did like the fights you made, over-all. Though I'm not sure that I prefer them over the originals; I would have to play each again. Both were fun.

Also, insta-death water? Wtf? Hell no; just take the steps out then, haha.



I liked rdwpa's demos, those were cool to watch.

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rdwpa said:

UV FDA for Chris Hansen's map. Excuse the sloppy aim/play in places; I'm tired and being powered mostly by caffeine. (Decided to take a day off from Sunlust for that reason. :p)

Not bad. A couple of good traps (the lock-in warp-in, the chaingunner trap soon afterwards, and the rev + lost soul thing maybe -- although the latter would be better if the monsters faced the player when the water lowered) and some smart incidental placements here and there (chaingunners in cages that I completely missed and lost half of my health to at one point). Rest was quite tame in comparison. A few times you'll notice me retreat very quickly from a freshly awoken low-threat monster and inspect what's behind me (e.g. the single baron warp-in, the shotgunners in the water thing, stuff like that). That's because I thought it was a logical spot, layout-wise, for a pincer trap. The rocket launcher trap, as my demo shows, was completely ineffectual. I'm not sure if that's just because I retreated to the right spot, but anyway, that sort of cheese shouldn't exist. The warp-in in the room with the cacos and crates would be better if the room was set up such that the monsters could go around both sides of the crate -- as is, you just camp out behind the crates and safely SSG everything. I like that you didn't go overboard with health.


Thanks for the demo! That was a pleasent watch! Your comments above and the way you approached the level has give me some ideas for improvements here and there.

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Cynical said:

OK, I finally managed to get Tyviec edit-able, and, as promised, edited three encounters (the opening, the HK ambush in the first temple, and the docks battle) to show how to use monsters properly to prevent it from devolving into a circle-strafe fest. I'm still too lazy to add proper lock-ins to the docks or the HK battle, so just pretend you're locked in, heh.

https://www.mediafire.com/?82dxey6nvp9tv9p

The docks is far from perfect (once you get your foothold, it's way too easy to sit on one end and just clean up), but it should get the idea across.

EDIT: Also, pretend that the water is insta-death, I forgot to change that to get rid of that exploit, heh.


Thank you for your interest!
I played your modified version, and I have to say I don't like the type of battles you staged.

The main problem, from my point of view, is that putting the player with so many strong enemies (AV, revenants...) make the player escape, and shot from distance. This is kind of thing I want to avoid. I want the player to be invited to fight on the spot, on the moment.

Probably we have different playing style.

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rdwpa said:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/cqzd15dlaa88wc7/ce_rdwpa.lmp

Fun stuff. I guess the megaspheres are there to make it ultra-easy, for the sake of demonstration?

Well, that and the fact I suck at doing the figure-8 streaming through Arachno fire, so I was dying when I had only a Soulsphere there. But yeah, this was only to demonstrate "how to make fights that can't be entirely solved with circle-strafing", and I didn't want to worry about actually balancing the health, since that always takes me forever to get right.

I expected you to block the door with a manc in the room with the other megasphere.

Good eye! Actually, my original idea for that room *did* call for Mancs, including one in front of the door, but I decided to not have them because I wanted to focus on demonstrating AVs as an anti-circling mechanism.

Angry Saint said:

The main problem, from my point of view, is that putting the player with so many strong enemies (AV, revenants...) make the player escape, and shot from distance. This is kind of thing I want to avoid. I want the player to be invited to fight on the spot, on the moment.

Nope, all of those encounters were designed to be done "up-close-and-personal". I was just too lazy to add lock-in mechanisms. None of those should be terribly difficult for an experienced Doom player to handle "honestly" while standing their ground (look at rdwpa's demo).

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Cynical said:

Nope, all of those encounters were designed to be done "up-close-and-personal". I was just too lazy to add lock-in mechanisms. None of those should be terribly difficult for an experienced Doom player to handle "honestly" while standing their ground (look at rdwpa's demo).


Probably you're right in asking for some lock-in arenas... but I have to say that I didn't like the arachnotron wall at the beginning of the level. I found it boring to fight, just running up and down and shooting.

But thank you anyway for your comments!

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Here's the latest version of my map with several fixes and adjustments:

http://windward.dk/TDR/ty_tribute2.wad

I don't know why I bother though, because there's literally zero management in this project with geo being awol for several weeks :P

If the situation requires it and noone else wants to, then I'll take leadership. I mean, it's like we've been abandoned or something and I'll be damned if we're going to pay our respects to Ty by letting this run into the sand.

But hey, let's not go there just yet. But let this be my way of saying that we really need to get this project back on track and hopefully we'll hear from geo soon.

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I don't think Geo had any intention of leading this thing in the first place, his posts of the first few pages amount to Do whatever the hell you want. If people want to see this finished, & be of quality, someone needs to step up & do some managing.

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He came up with the idea and in several posts established the rules. That really leaves me with the impression that he was the leader. How can that be misunderstood?

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Geo fell off the world, I know a few people who have mentioned that so far. Its a major shame as he was over-all good for DW. Prolly decided to Hell with this site after he got banned from EE, but it's a shame to give up so easily. I liked geo, too.

As for managing this thread, I know for a fact geo never had any intentions of leading it. I think all of us who are involved would lead it if we have to. However, I'm ok with Chris or MD leading this the rest of the way.

Speaking of which, I finally have a few days off work (funny to go from working every day-straight to a sudden 3 day weekend... I'm what I'm gonna do with myself, heh), so I finally have time again to devote to mapping (yay!). Sorry for the break in my attendance over here, fellas.

*Edit*
To Chris, that was all geo had in mind, from my talks with him. Idk what he was thinking, but it was probably just that it should be done, not necessarily that he wanted to lead it. I think this goes into the old saying about assuming (which we all did, myself included), it makes an "ass" out of "u" and "me" >.<

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OK then, I'll back off and relax a bit. I guess I was the one, who was wrong. Sorry if I came on a bit strong. I just really want to see this project released.

Now we've settled that, I suggest we just co-manage it from now on as intended.

Now, we need more maps I think. We've got around 5-6 maps and it would be awesome if we could double that! I know there were lots of people who expressed interest but we haven't herd anything. So, please if there are anyone out there who wants to contribute, please speak up or show us your progress in either screenshots or a map we can test.

Join us so we can make a decent tribute to Ty in megawad form! :)

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Oh, you mistake me sir, I don't need to lead this and I don't think anyone is actively vying for the position. I merely meant that you or MD would make a good project lead. I wish I could throw my hat into the ring, but I simply dont have time to consistently manage a project right now, though I can and would love to help.

Agreed that we need more maps; I hope more folks come forward and map out some stuff for this!

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I'd be happy to continue my map if we can determine the texture set, as I have a lot of Doom2/Evilution decoration placement that would need seriously reworking if we're making RETRES the official set (are we?)

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dobu gabu maru said:

I'd be happy to continue my map if we can determine the texture set, as I have a lot of Doom2/Evilution decoration placement that would need seriously reworking if we're making RETRES the official set (are we?)


Excellent! I suggest you use Mithran Denizen's sepTYtex, as he we've got maps that use either tnt.wad or retres.wad as ressources and he has compiled them both into one wad file. And as he says, we can trim it later before release. I think that might be the best way to go about this. Any objections? :)

Here's MD's post with a link to the ressource wad: https://www.doomworld.com/vb/post/1418732

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For the record, I'm still willing to step in and compile / tidy / release / upload everything in the end, if nobody else gets around to it. I can also try to make some time to pitch in with more playtesting if anyone seeks it, as well, but I truthfully can't make promises about just how regularly I'll be able to check back on this thread.

Anyway, I would love to see another map or a few more, from whomever feels like whipping something up! We'll have probably received all the maps we're going to get by the end of next month, but at this point there's still no impending need to set a deadline or push the project out the door just yet.

dobu gabu maru said:

I'd be happy to continue my map if we can determine the texture set, as I have a lot of Doom2/Evilution decoration placement that would need seriously reworking if we're making RETRES the official set (are we?)

If we compile everything into one wad using the resource pack mentioned above, then yeah, all the retres sprite replacements would apply and could potentially look wonky or need reworking in any maps that uses them unintentionally.

We could do it this way, or a few other ways; I'm not sure of everybody's preferences here. I see three broad options.

1) Every map can use the combination of The Return resources (including sprite replacements, etc) + TNT textures. My map is created with this setup in mind, though others may need adjusting.

2) We use The Return textures and TNT textures, but cut out some or all of the other asset replacements from retres.wad. This may work, though I'll certainly need to revise the thing placement in my map. (I really dig some of the decorations, and used them extensively.)

3) We compile the project as more than one wad, if need be, allowing different maps to use different resources. Kind of lame, but nobody needs to rework their maps based on asset availability.

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Chris Hansen said:

Here's MD's post with a link to the ressource wad:

Oh cool, most everything is fine so I can continue. No promise on it being done soon, but I'll keep chipping away at it.

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Mithran Denizen said:

1) Every map can use the combination of The Return resources (including sprite replacements, etc) + TNT textures. My map is created with this setup in mind, though others may need adjusting.


I vote for this one. I think it will affect the most maps the least. My map uses TNT and it shouldn't be a big deal to check the sprites that are, perhaps, out of place and replace them when combined with the Retres ressources.

Going for one of the other options affect maps like MD's more and that's not fair.

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Z0k's and my map is with the TNT iWad only in its current form, but I gotta vote for that number one option as well. I do not want to mess up MD's map just for something that could be easily checked and fixed on my end.

I'm sure Z0k would agree anyway, but I can take care of any retexturing/object placement that needs to be done if for some reason it causes them to not show up.

I agree with you, Chris, on the OP. It's a shame we cant fix it up to better reflect what's going on. I know none of the admins here owe me any favors, but perhaps one of you other guys could ask one and see if they'll hook it on up for us.

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My map uses a lot of restres textures, so please let them in the bunch, I'd really would like to be in the project.

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Angry Saint said:

My map uses a lot of restres textures, so please let them in the bunch, I'd really would like to be in the project.


Don't worry, your map is safe :) BTW, do you have a new version of your map ready for download? I know there were a lot of useful feedback for it, so I'm guessing you've made some changes to it...or?

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joe-ilya said:

Here's a newer version of rockage : https://www.mediafire.com/?u6qlyi96ar1psbe

http://i.imgur.com/7YTSeP9.png

-More detail
-Fixed red door
-Fixed blood outline for zdoom


Much better than the first version, good job.

I have a couple of suggestions though, which I urge you to take a look at:

- Delete one backpack and replace with some ammo.
- Edit the surrounding areas of the exit door/area, so that it doesn't look so squished. I'll help you with this if you don't know how or what I mean :)
- There are three secrets too many, as sectors 80, 81 and 34 are all marked secret and only one of them should be marked.

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Fair enough, joe. It's your work and I'm not here to tell how to do it. Thanks for the updated file. Linedef 49 has a Y offset of 64, so the secret area is how perhaps a little too obvious. I'll fix it so you don't have to upload another version just for that.

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Chris Hansen said:

Don't worry, your map is safe :) BTW, do you have a new version of your map ready for download? I know there were a lot of useful feedback for it, so I'm guessing you've made some changes to it...or?


Sorry, I was not able to work on it due to a pc crash...

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My map only used normal iwad textures, and I'm kinda afraid it isn't really TNTish enough - Will post a link shortly

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No worries, it doesn't have to look like TNT. We want to pay tribute to Ty in whatever way we think is best. My map uses TNT's iwad, but doesn't really look like anything from the it. My homage to Ty is simply by using a few of TNT's textures and some Boom features while also being inspired by his map04 from TNT. If you feel your map pays tribute to him, then that's really all there is to it :)

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Gentlemen, start your editors! We've got a new deadline for this project, which is Nov. 30th. So, join us and let's pay a proper tribute to Ty!

As it stands at the moment, this project is more a nod than a tribute. We really need more maps in order to make this a proper tribute! I beg you, nay, I implore you to use whatever means necessary for you to find the time to join us! Mappers is top priority, but there will also be place for playtesters or someone with skills to make us a cool interpic etc.

If you're hooked and feel like starting a map, then please use sepTytex.zip from this post as a ressource for your map.

The rules are simple: Make a map that in some way pays tribute to Ty's work. This could be by mimicking his style or using lots of Boom features. It's really up to you to interpret upon :)

Join us and let's make a project worthy to the late, great Ty Halderman! He deserves it and you know it.

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I'd say have the deadline in February so people can map over the holidays as opposed to rushing to get their map in by the end of the month. This isn't really something we should rush, it's something we should do our best at without being hampered by time constraints.

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