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Chewyninja69

Speedrunning on E1M2 of Doom...

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Trying to beat the Doom 3: BFG Edition PS3 time record for this level, but keep getting stuck on the last imp at the end of the level's elevator/lift. I have to fiddle with him and it always makes me miss the desired time. Is there a way to bypass him and hit the switch or make the lift come up with him so that I can just shoot him and press the switch quickly/quicker?

Edit: Nevermind, I managed to beat the top time. You're right, Baron: it was absolute, ridiculous dumb luck.

Edit #2: Also managed to snag the best time for E1M3 as well. Yay me.

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Down to dumb luck, really. Sometimes he'll be in the right place and rise with the platform, but most of the time you're stuck with having to deal with him being right next to the exit switch.

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Here you can see the world record UV speedrun of Doom's E1M2. The speedrunner presses the switch through the imp, as he's close enough.

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Heh, it's always unsettling to see of just how much "fluff" one can skip on most Doom level. And to think that there's certainly room for improvement, e.g. not bumping on that first door to the red key could even shave a full sec..

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Maes said:

Heh, it's always unsettling to see of just how much "fluff" one can skip on most Doom level. And to think that there's certainly room for improvement, e.g. not bumping on that first door to the red key could even shave a full sec..

I've started speedrunning through levels the other day on Doom & Doom 2 (and I use "speedrunning" loosely as I'm well aware I'm nowhere near the top people in that/this sort of thing) and I'm all too aware of a bump, scrape, rubbing against an object (or enemy) making me lose precious seconds or milliseconds. Very frustrating but I guess that goes with the territory, no?

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Chewyninja69 said:

Very frustrating but I guess that goes with the territory, no?


Sure does, but human reaction times are finite (every driving or piloting textbook will tell you it's about 1/10 of a second to register an event, plus a similar amount of time to react to it, simply because of human neurochemistry), so the only way to get improvements is to replay a map so many times that events are practically memorized and anticipated, routes are planned so that doors, platforms and monsters "happen" to be positioned just right, etc.

After a certain point however, only tic-by-tic TAS can yield any improvement at all. That's why in another thread there was a debate on what constitutes a "good" Doom player: one that has the patience to rehearse a map to the point of being able to speedrun it with his eyes closed (and of course an uncanny ability to follow this internal "script", lest nobody claim that I'm implying that this doesn't take skill), or one that has an all-around "good" performance even on an unknown map, e.g. in a FDA competition?

IMO the first is like a world-class violin or piano player rehearsing a well-known composition to obsessive levels, the latter is like a talented jazz club or cabaret musician. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and situations where they are more or less suitable. It's one thing if you're actually looking for the most excellent performer of some famous Bach violin or Rachmaninoff piano concerto, and another if you need a flexible musician with a good repertoire which needs to be able to successfully improvise in a club with a varied programme and clientele. Both are musicians, but what a difference!

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Maes said:

Sure does, but human reaction times are finite (every driving or piloting textbook will tell you it's about 1/10 of a second to register an event, plus a similar amount of time to react to it, simply because of human neurochemistry), so the only way to get improvements is to replay a map so many times that events are practically memorized and anticipated, routes are planned so that doors, platforms and monsters "happen" to be positioned just right, etc.

After a certain point however, only tic-by-tic TAS can yield any improvement at all. That's why in another thread there was a debate on what constitutes a "good" Doom player: one that has the patience to rehearse a map to the point of being able to speedrun it with his eyes closed (and of course an uncanny ability to follow this internal "script", lest nobody claim that I'm implying that this doesn't take skill), or one that has an all-around "good" performance even on an unknown map, e.g. in a FDA competition?

IMO the first is like a world-class violin or piano player rehearsing a well-known composition to obsessive levels, the latter is like a talented jazz club or cabaret musician. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and situations where they are more or less suitable. It's one thing if you're actually looking for the most excellent performer of some famous Bach violin or Rachmaninoff piano concerto, and another if you need a flexible musician with a good repertoire which needs to be able to successfully improvise in a club with a varied programme and clientele. Both are musicians, but what a difference!


I couldn't have said it better myself; probably the best post I have ever read on any (game) forum I frequent. I totally agree that neither the speedrunner or all-around Doomer is better than the other. There is a time and place for both and if one can do both, that's what makes a good Doomer. Like I said earlier, I know I'm not the best at speedrunning (and there are levels that I just absolutely despise and know I'll never have a good time on them....looking at you Perfect Hatred and The Chasm), but I feel I'm a better "all-around" Doomer than speedrunner.

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Maes said:

And to think that there's certainly room for improvement, e.g. not bumping on that first door to the red key could even shave a full sec.


What?

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j4rio said:

What?


Not sure if trolling...

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Why should I bother? That's what we're keeping you around for.

Please pinpoint a spot where one could save a whole second from "not bumping".

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At 0:03. OK, maybe not an entire second just from that bump, but cumulatively from similar bumps throughout the entire demo. That one was just the most obvious. Of course, you could reproach that this was not a bump and whatnot, that I should not use "strong" terms such as an "entire second" when it' obviously just a a few tics, but wannaknowhat? I don't care. Haters gonna hate.

I'm not sure if many real-time (non-TAS) demoers can consistently time their door opening so that they press "space" at just the maximum possible distance everytime, while modulating their speed/course so that not even a single pixel from doomguy's hairline touches the rising door.

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im not seeing this bump. I'm sure you understand that you need to be within reach of the door to open it and there's a brief wait time before the door rises enough for you to fit through. There's too much risk/reward involved with getting through the door at the absolute best time before touching it stops your acceleration completely, especially considering how menial it is compared to the other challenges involved with the demo that depend more on RNG than precision, (like the one described in the OP)

If you're a speedrunner who gets hung up on things like that you may as well not release demos at all.

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scifista42 said:

Here you can see the world record UV speedrun of Doom's E1M2. The speedrunner presses the switch through the imp, as he's close enough.

Need fanart of the Doomguy punching through an imp's chest to press a switch TIA

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You're talking out of your ass, Maes. Can the demo be improved? Yes, I think so. It's .63, so you don't even need a full second, but you're pointing to wrong "errors".

First of all, the demo is almost purely sr40-only and even with all that twisting and turning, you could press the time down a fair bit with optimized sr50. Second, coming from the RK back down the staircase could be handled better - Vono bumps the imp, bumps the wall, bumps the door downstairs again. Tiny erros that could save up the time necessary, but the run also relies on monster movement luck, especially getting the door opened in time by the zombie.

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Well, that was quite a roundabout way of expressing agreement.

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