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Brad_tilf

A mission from IDDQD

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So, I had read that Windows 10 32 bit could play the old 16 bit applications. Naturally, being an IT guy, I had to check this out. So, I set up an old pc with a 40 gb hdd, threw in 2 gb or ram, installed 7 and pushed out about 3 trillion upgrades and went through a bunch of other hoops till I could get Windows 10 to install on it but it finally did. So, I got Doom onto the machine, did the compatibility mode settings and fired it up. First, I got a message that I had to install NVTMD and went ahead and did that (allows 16 bit processes to run on a 32 bit machine). Next....
Fired it up again. Application cannot be run in full screen. Sigh.
Looked at all the settings again. Made sure that it is "supposed" to open Windowed. Nope, same error.
Can't figure it out.
SURE, I could just use a port or Dosbox but what's the fun or challenge in THAT?
There may not be an answer to this dilemma but I'm not going to give up till I've exhausted every avenue....

So, anyone have any ideas?

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Waste of time even bothering trying to run DOS programs on recent versions of Windows. Windows isn't DOS based any more and hasn't been for ~14 years. Just use DOSbox or set up a virtual machine.

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lmao just because 16-bit applications can be launched doesn't mean that they will actually work. Maybe some simple console DOS executables might work. But games? They can't start in the video mode they want, their timing is screwed up, forget about it.

It's hard to even get most old games to work properly in a FreeDOS virtual machine, dude. The video and sound devices that are being emulated aren't what the games expect.

Now Dosbox on the other hand emulates the S3 Trio64 and a SB Pro. And the CPU is shackled cycles-wise. Now we're talking, that thing fucking rocks.

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VGA said:

lmao just because 16-bit applications can be launched doesn't mean that they will actually work. Maybe some simple console DOS executables might work. But games? They can't start in the video mode they want, their timing is screwed up, forget about it.

It's hard to even get most old games to work properly in a FreeDOS virtual machine, dude. The video and sound devices that are being emulated aren't what the games expect.

Now Dosbox on the other hand emulates the S3 Trio64 and a SB Pro. And the CPU is shackled cycles-wise. Now we're talking, that thing fucking rocks.


The "point" isn't necessarily that I WANT to play these games. I just want to figure out how I can without using 3rd party software. It's the puzzle that I want to solve. It's what I do, cuz, you know, I do IT for a living and I like the puzzles

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Brad_tilf said:

The "point" isn't necessarily that I WANT to play these games. I just want to figure out how I can without using 3rd party software. It's the puzzle that I want to solve. It's what I do, cuz, you know, I do IT for a living and I like the puzzles

Lol biggiest unsolved mystery is why Microsoft dropped DOS Support .

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DMGUYDZ64 said:

Lol biggiest unsolved mystery is why Microsoft dropped DOS Support .


It's not gone. I use the command prompt all the time. It's still there, just in a different form. And, let's face it, DOS was very limited. I still own a DOS/Win 3.1 machine and I even use it to play original Doom the way it was meant to be played - same for Quake, Wolfenstein, all that stuff. Because it really IS the only way to play those games in their native habitat. But I would love to find out if there is some way to force Dos into a window so I can play it on Windows 7. Why? Just because.

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Apparently (if it works) there is a solution to the problem, which would be to remove your graphics card drivers and replace them with XP drivers for the same device (if you can find them). The other possible solution is to just delete your drivers and then run the application. I might try that one. There is the potential for finding XP drivers for a Geforce 6800 I suppose

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Brad_tilf said:

The "point" isn't necessarily that I WANT to play these games. I just want to figure out how I can without using 3rd party software. It's the puzzle that I want to solve. It's what I do, cuz, you know, I do IT for a living and I like the puzzles

I understand, I did the same thing with Doom 95 on Windows 7 x64!
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/source-ports/70804-comprehensive-doom95-guide-for-newer-windows/

But running the original DOS exes natively in Windows 10 seems impossible. I'd like to be proven wrong, though.

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AFAIK support for XP video drivers was removed in Windows 8. If that's true, you won't really have any luck at all. Using DOSBox is far easier ;)

FWIW, I don't think running on 20+ year old hardware and ancient operating systems is really an intended way to play. id wanted people to play Doom, not mess around with DOS.

For a purist experience, Chocolate Doom should do well. If you want to run the original EXEs, there's DOSBox, of course.

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Brad_tilf said:

It's the puzzle that I want to solve. It's what I do, cuz, you know, I do IT for a living and I like the puzzles


While it's important in IT to find root causes, it's even better when you can say fuck it and find a work around.

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VGA said:

I understand, I did the same thing with Doom 95 on Windows 7 x64!
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/source-ports/70804-comprehensive-doom95-guide-for-newer-windows/

But running the original DOS exes natively in Windows 10 seems impossible. I'd like to be proven wrong, though.


I'll be messing with it. just going to remove the video drivers and see what happens

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Brad_tilf said:

The "point" isn't necessarily that I WANT to play these games. I just want to figure out how I can without using 3rd party software.

And the answer is that you can't. You're wasting your time.

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Brad_tilf said:

Obviously.

Command prompt works in a different way than DOS, DOS is disque operating system , Command prompt is just what it's title says .

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The notion of trying to play without third party software also strikes me as strange. Is the OS itself not third party software?

Anyway ever since Windows 2000 I at the very least had to use something like VDMSound to get the dos executable really working at all. It became clear to me at that point that Dos games were always going to need a helping hand to stay alive in the modern era, and Dosbox has become instrumental there.

I am pessimistic you will accomplish anything here.

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That's how microsoft Declined DOS

Early versions of Microsoft Windows ran on top of a separate version of DOS. By the early 1990s, Windows graphical shell saw heavy use on new DOS systems. In 1995, Windows 95 was bundled as a standalone operating system that did not require a separate DOS license. Windows 95 (and Windows 98 and ME, that followed it) took over as the default OS kernel, though the MS-DOS component remained for compatibility. With Windows 95 and 98, but not ME, the MS-DOS component could be run without starting Windows. With DOS no longer required to use Windows, the majority of PC users stopped using it directly.

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ReFracture said:

The notion of trying to play without third party software also strikes me as strange. Is the OS itself not third party software?

One solution would be to install Windows 7 Ultimate, since that comes with Virtual PC built in. Technically no "third party software" is then being used.

But this seems like a weird approach to take. Insisting on solving something a particular way just sets up obstacles to achieving the best solution. Perhaps with significant effort and technical insight you can get Vanilla Doom to run on Windows 10, but I doubt it's ever going to play as well as the DOSbox solution that can be set up in 5 minutes.

DMGUYDZ64 said:

I don't think that's even relevant. If you're thinking of modern Windows as a descendant of Windows 95 then you're mistaken.

In the '90s Microsoft had two operating systems:

  • Windows 9x (95, 98, Me), their consumer DOS-based OS. Derived from Windows 3.1, containing substantial 16-bit code, and had imperfect memory protection that made it prone to crashes.
  • Windows NT, their "business" OS that was written from the ground up as an entirely new system with a modern kernel. Much more stable by design.
Windows 2000 was the last in the "NT" line. From Windows XP onwards, both their consumer and business OSes are based on the NT codebase.

On the surface it's not entirely obvious because they use the same UI, but some of the details make it obvious - cmd.exe vs. command.com for example. If you want to run old DOS games it's quite noticeable - XP is the first consumer version of Windows where Vanilla Doom didn't play properly, and why you need NTVDM etc. to even get it to run. The NT-based OSes have some limited support for running DOS programs but ultimately it's not a DOS-based OS any more.

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fraggle said:

One solution would be to install Windows 7 Ultimate, since that comes with Virtual PC built in. Technically no "third party software" is then being used.

But this seems like a weird approach to take. Insisting on solving something a particular way just sets up obstacles to achieving the best solution. Perhaps with significant effort and technical insight you can get Vanilla Doom to run on Windows 10, but I doubt it's ever going to play as well as the DOSbox solution that can be set up in 5 minutes.

Ya, but that's easy. No fun. lol

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Even quicker way to play Doom with DOSBOX:

1. Have DOSBOX shortcut on desktop
2. Have folder of Doom open
3. Drag DOOM.EXE over to DOSBOX shortcut
4. Congratulations!

Done in less than a minute.
The same can be done with SETUP.EXE.

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Brad_tilf said:

Ya, but that's easy. No fun. lol

Seriously .All programs are boring , they're not funny :) whatever you're going to do i'm sure it's gonna be Boring as this trick.

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Heh.

"command prompt is DOS"

Now that made me laugh. Generally I hear that same line from folks who still say "...well Windows (insert whatever revision) it's not as bad as Vista.", or complain about McAfee Antivirus on their home computer (which is an obvious clue they're hopeless)

Basically people who think they know IT but haven't the slightest clue.

Command Prompt may have a look and feel of DOS interface, and share some commands and structure... but it's a completley different engine under the hood and architecture. It about as much as DOS as say the terminal bash prompt in *nix.

While true, old 3.1 and 9x kernels were a front end for DOS (which slowly migrated into chopped up 32 bit kernels), the NT-os line was built on entirely different structure and architecture, and later even newer filesystems that were meant to be natively 32-bit (and beyond) and GUI based. It had nothing to do with DOS and implemented the command line for terminal-like administration features only, which has long since been eclipsed by an even more domiant and powerful Powershell prompt... which can now be installed and used exclusively aside without the GUI in current Windows NT/Server releases via core mode installation for overhead reduction.

Microsoft wanted to implement the NT architecture into home user releases right after windows 98, but ran into some snags so they released 98se and the ill-fated Millennium Edition (ME) which tried hard to prevent and pretend it wasn't still using DOS by removing common access to it... but it still was, causing all sorts of troubleshooting and compatibility fuckery.

Windows XP was the first NT-based OS for home market, as it was using alot of the features and kernel from NT 5, aka Windows 2000. Since then, all home releases have now used the NT architecture which was used exclusively in workstation/server class environments prior. The Windows server os series also uses the same.

simply, 9x series revolved around DOS, while command prompt revolves around the NT filesystem and kernel. Two different ballparks.

Assuming OP really wants to be a systems engineer, architect, administration or infrastructure manager... this is some basic knowledge that'll help you in the future. I'd recommend going beyond low-level stuff (like comptia training) straight into higher in training, like Microsoft MCSE (if that still a thing, as I did mcsa/MCSE 15 years ago) courses, azure, ccna, sql, sccm, vmware, citrix, sap, itil, agile/scrum/waterfall and other infrastructure service/innformation systems coursework and methodolgies. just a friendly recommendation :)

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Brad_tilf said:

Apparently (if it works) there is a solution to the problem, which would be to remove your graphics card drivers and replace them with XP drivers for the same device (if you can find them).

That's a good way to either force your OS to run default fallback VGA drivers, or becomes irremediably unusable. Microsoft completely changed their driver architecture in Windows Vista, and so Windows Vista, 7, 8, and 10 are all absolutely unable to use Windows XP drivers. They will not run, they will not interface with the OS, they will not get access to the hardware, they will not work at all.

What you're trying to do is basically akin to feeding coal to an high-speed train. "It's still a train, there still are rails! I can make it work by shoveling coal in its engines!"

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fraggle said:

Windows NT, their "business" OS that was written from the ground up as an entirely new system with a modern kernel. Much more stable by design.

Not exactly. It was based on their OS/2 branch. Even Windows 7 still uses the same file system OS/2 does.
Interestingly enough, you can use the Windows 95 upgrade CD on OS/2.

Buckshot said:

Windows XP was the first NT-based OS for home market, as it was using alot of the features and kernel from NT 5, aka Windows 2000.

Initially, games written for Windows 9x frequently had compatibility issues on NT systems. Until XP came out. From then on, Windows 2000 instantly run new games perfectly. That's because, 2000 and XP were very similar, I guess. I got XP finally for cheap when Windows 2000 support ended.

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LogicDeLuxe said:

Not exactly. It was based on their OS/2 branch. Even Windows 7 still uses the same file system OS/2 does.
Interestingly enough, you can use the Windows 95 upgrade CD on OS/2.



I'm still fuzzy on what to classify the original NT os's as... workstation, developmemt, server, professional. All of the above I guess. "buisness professional"

I knew Microsoft was entangled with OS/2 early on then did their own thing, which sent IBM astray to rebut with OS/2 Warp. How much of it carried over into NT... not sure. Never got much of a chance to screw with os/2 as it was generally being phased out by the time I was getting into that careerpath.

did I miss out on anything cool from os/2 era?


Heh I remember building a dual pentium 3 machine for quake 3 and learning that SMP wasnt supported on Windows 9x the hardway. I slapped on NT4 to get SMP, bit I had to wait for Windows 2000 to release to get that support because NT4 had no directx support for my other games that didn't use opengl. Still get furious about that till this day.

or maybe nt4 did have directx support, but I remember alot of games not working until I got win 2000. can't remember the specifics.. lomg time ago.

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Gez said:

That's a good way to either force your OS to run default fallback VGA drivers, or becomes irremediably unusable. Microsoft completely changed their driver architecture in Windows Vista, and so Windows Vista, 7, 8, and 10 are all absolutely unable to use Windows XP drivers. They will not run, they will not interface with the OS, they will not get access to the hardware, they will not work at all.


Windows Vista and 7 support XP video drivers, primarily as a compatibility option for people upgrading from Windows XP (though you can't do XP->7 directly, the support for the old drivers wasn't removed). You can't get Aero or D3D>9, but you do get full screen command prompt and DOS games with them.

Windows 8 (and by extension, 10) changed how the GUI works in Windows entirely, removing the capability of running the classic theme or uxtheme styles, demanding that DWM (the compositing engine Aero and Metro runs on) runs at all times, which requires a driver capable of doing Direct3D 10 (even if only as a software fallback), which puts XP drivers out of commission for good.

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Buckshot said:

I knew Microsoft was entangled with OS/2 early on then did their own thing, which sent IBM astray to rebut with OS/2 Warp. How much of it carried over into NT... not sure.

Windows 2000 is the last version which is supposed to be compatible to old OS/2 software. I never tried that out, so I don't know if this also goes for OS/2 2.0 and later.

did I miss out on anything cool from os/2 era?

My Pentium 90 PC came with OS/2 warp. You can install Windows 3.11 in it and use 16 bit Windows software on the OS/2 desktop. You could easily tell them apart as they had their own window decorations, as seen here: http://toastytech.com/guis/os233.html
I didn't use that either, but "upgraded" to Windows 95. OS/2 probably was the better system, but due to lack of software, and I already had a bunch of DOS games, I couldn't do much with it.
Like all Windows NT systems, also OS/2 warp had limited support for DOS software. Usually too limited to be useful. That's why the Windows home versions were still DOS based, I guess.

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Buckshot said:

did I miss out on anything cool from os/2 era?

I never paid OS/2 much attention back in the '90s but a few years ago I watched this really interesting presentation that makes me feel like I may have missed out :)

Check it out, it's a long video but the presenter is really good and keeps it entertaining to watch:



Skip to ~39m for the OS/2 presentation - this is from a "shootout" between Microsoft and IBM presenters demoing NT and OS/2.

Some of the stuff he shows is taken for granted nowadays but if you put yourselves in the shoes of someone watching in 1993 it's quite impressive.

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