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40oz

Demo sign language

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One drawback to demo recording is that there's no way to type messages or include subtitles or any way to talk to your viewer while theyre watching your demo

Has there ever been any unanimous way to communicate messages to the demo watcher by series of distinct gestures? Usually demo recordings have the fisties out punching the air which i guess (if not to wake up monsters) is an impatient "hurry up" foot tapping as the runner waits for things they have no control over like, infighting or a slow moving floor. I've once seen an FDA where the runner took a missile in the face and you could see the player was shaking his mouse back and forth in frustration.

I see this being more helpful for FDAs than anything else, and this is sort of a "one beep for yes, two beeps for no" sort of thing, but what are the chances of using the players limited gestures and movements as a way to communicate messages to the demo watcher?

Things like moving forward and back in rapid succession could be a gesture for "yes"
Strafing side to side in rapid succession could be a gesture for "no"
Shaking the mouse or swinging the view side to side could indicate "I don't know"

what other gestures can you think of could be used to communicate messages to the demo watcher? What other general words or messages do you think are worth having gestures for in a demo recording?

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I often shake my mouse around when I get pist in demo recordings, but I think most of what needs to be said can be said in the text file. Then again, not many people write elaborate (or any comments whatsoever in) text files, which would be nice (looking at you, j4rio...).

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My favorite is shooting at nothing after a minor fuckup (typically a "non-demo-ending" fall, such as getting knocked off a lift or missing a jump in an otherwise decent demo). For some reason it is more effective with sg/ssg. Waiting segments provide a lot of time for such expressions, see j4rio's tnt map 18 max for a funny example.

This isn't directly related to what you are asking, but Youtube annotations can be used to good effect such as here. Also, I'd really like to see more speedrunners stream on twitch, since it allows extensive commentary while recording and gives a good idea as to the difficulty of the run and various pitfalls which might not be apparent to someone who only saw the completed product.

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An FDA-recording player only needs to give out one signal: That he found a bug or a disagreeable design decision. He can indicate it by repeatedly pressing a wall, twitching in place, turning around 360 degrees, or shooting in vain into the place in question. I did things like this many times, intuitively, without thinking about it much.

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scifista42 said:

He can indicate it by repeatedly pressing a wall, twitching in place, turning around 360 degrees, or shooting in vain into the place in question. I did things like this many times, intuitively, without thinking about it much.


The important part about something like this is that the runner and the watcher have to be in agreement about what exactly the actions mean so that is effectively communicated. In general, I see how what your describing works, but communication can be improved greatly if one of those actions means this, but doesn't mean that. etc etc.

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This reminds me of one your previous threads: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-general/68384-extra-doom-guy-reaction-faces/

Would be cool if custom HUD faces could be binded to keys and used like emoticons in demos to communicate things like amusement, confusion, frustration and dumb luck. Unfortunately, unless someone builds a source port fork, I would have thought this would not be possible in source ports useful for FDAs.

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purist said:

This reminds me of one your previous threads: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-general/68384-extra-doom-guy-reaction-faces/

Would be cool if custom HUD faces could be binded to keys and used like emoticons in demos to communicate things like amusement, confusion, frustration and dumb luck. Unfortunately, unless someone builds a source port fork, I would have thought this would not be possible in source ports useful for FDAs.


That would be neat. And not hard to implement I guess, wonder why no one has done it yet.

I found demon of the well's victory celebrations by punching the air funny, also j4rio's crazy mouse flicks.

Well, shaking the mouse horizontally for No? And vertically for Yes, if you play with mouse look enabled.

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I can't think of any reason* why storing timestamped chat strings as another lump in pr+'s demo footer wouldn't be feasible.

When recording you'd press T to talk, like in a netgame, this would suspend recording while you typed something, as is the case currently when you open the menus. Store that in a list, along with the tic number of the event. Read list on playback, show messages to the user at appropriate time, as if they were netgame chat strings. Could even play DSRADIO!

________
* Other than actually doing the work, of course. I mean, I don't think there's a technical reason that would prevent such a feature. But someone has to code it.

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RjY said:

I can't think of any reason* why storing timestamped chat strings as another lump in pr+'s demo footer wouldn't be feasible.

When recording you'd press T to talk, like in a netgame, this would suspend recording while you typed something, as is the case currently when you open the menus. Store that in a list, along with the tic number of the event. Read list on playback, show messages to the user at appropriate time, as if they were netgame chat strings. Could even play DSRADIO!

________
* Other than actually doing the work, of course. I mean, I don't think there's a technical reason that would prevent such a feature. But someone has to code it.


I thought about taking normal Doom demos (since they end with 0x80 and such) and adding meta-data in the form of an appended ZIP file (since ZIP is based on the end of the file and not the start (the "PK" at the start of the ZIP serves only as a hint not a requirement and is not needed)), this way there will not be a competition of standards (of how the data is laid out) and anything extra metadata could be easily extracted by tools. An appended ZIP would also mean that the metadata is not lost either. Source ports could check for a ZIP directory at the end, see if there is any metadata it likes and then optionally use it. There could also be a potential for commentary to be added also which can be looked at from a compatible source port. Ports could use this to extend demos without changing the demo format and breaking compatibility with Vanilla and other engines.

EDIT: This would better be discussed at https://www.doomworld.com/vb/source-ports/74760-doom-standard-idea-demo-metadata/

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I think I've seen FDA's where the player "shook his head" after coming upon some bad gameplay design. It's a quite universally comprehensible sign.

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As a deaf person I am obliged to do this pedantic post: it's not sign language. Call it 'demo gestures' if you will. Unlike all natural languages, I am pretty sure you cannot discuss philosophy through arbitrary wiggles of the pistol. :)

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I don't know man, I get pretty philosophical when that last revenant drops after a grueling horde fight at 10hp and the missile I failed to see loops back to hit me. Fragility of victory, futility of life, frailty of human condition, Doom has it all.

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Joshy said:

As a deaf person I am obliged to do this pedantic post: it's not sign language. Call it 'demo gestures' if you will. Unlike all natural languages, I am pretty sure you cannot discuss philosophy through arbitrary wiggles of the pistol. :)



I didn't know you could with sign language either. I only know some very basic vocabulary. I didn't know it got much deeper than that. Thanks though. :)

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Phml said:

Fragility of victory, futility of life, frailty of human condition, Doom has it all.

Now try to communicate those thoughts with interpretative dance only using a handgun and dryhumping walls.

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You could encode 3 letters into each demo tic by setting specific forward / side / turn values. That's 105 letters per second or approximately 500 baud!!

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Joshy said:

As a deaf person I am obliged to do this pedantic post: it's not sign language. Call it 'demo gestures' if you will. Unlike all natural languages, I am pretty sure you cannot discuss philosophy through arbitrary wiggles of the pistol. :)


I've always wondered how deafness would affect someone's level of Doom skill*. Seems like it would be a big liability when playing tough levels for the first time, particularly with traps.


*I could try playing with sound off, actually. That seems fairly simple.

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rdwpa said:

I've always wondered how deafness would affect someone's level of Doom skill*. Seems like it would be a big liability when playing tough levels for the first time, particularly with traps.


*I could try playing with sound off, actually. That seems fairly simple.

Just play through SoD or Resurgence on UV with distorted sounds and you're set! :P

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