Tips for making slaughter maps

[Inkie]

I'm sure there's a lot to it I don't know

[scifista42]

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-editing/69457-slaughter-map-making-tips/

[baja blast rd.]

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-editing/69457-slaughter-map-making-tips/

This is the only slaughter map I've ever made, though, so I can't contribute my own tips.

[Maes]

1. Make a big square room.
   
2. Copy & paste 5000 monsters
   
3. ????
   
4. NUTS.WAD
   

[Hoodie]

I already said this but just draw in circles and then put revenants in there and you got yourself a 5 star slaughter map mmmmmhmmmmm

[RUSH]

[40oz]

Maes said:

1. Make a big square room.
   
2. Copy & paste 5000 monsters
   
3. ????
   
4. NUTS.WAD
   

Your credibility to talk about doom is shrinking :/

EDIT:

@Inkie

Youre the level master. Creating a slaughter map is a lot like an RTS game. You have all the monsters you could ever need at your disposal, and your enemy is an unstoppable killing machine. The goal is to find that balance between killing doomguy, and making the map seemingly beatable (using monsters, and without denying him powerful items)

It helps to experiment by making a map where you get a megasphere, a berserk, a backpack, super shotgun, rocket launcher, plasma gun, and all the ammo you could ever need at the start. This makes for a very durable doom guy, so taking that into consideration anything you can make that is challenging for you is a good start.

Here are some tips that will help you:

1. You'll need to play with monsters in different quantities and different scenarios to get a feel for what their strengths and weaknesses are, but a good rule of thumb is that Doom guy is extremely powerful up close. Keeping monsters sniping instead of marching right into the Doom guy's death radius can pose a pretty serious threat. You can do this by putting monsters in cages, on pillars, on various-height ledges, or on the opposite side of pitfalls.

2. Monsters chasing the player on ground level are less threatening by themselves, but are meant to be used as a distraction or a time sink as surrounding sniping monsters attempt to pick the doomguy off.

3. You might notice that a horde of monsters chasing the player on a flat plane are only as dangerous as the monsters on the very outside of the horde. using rocky terrain, ledges to run across and other height variation can give monsters in the middle of a horde a chance to shoot over the heads of the other monsters. Also Archviles can attack through other monsters, and Pain Elementals, and Cacodemons can change their height in midair, especially if they start from a height in which they would need to descend toward the player.

4. Having too many monsters of different species near each other can cause some serious infighting. This can be good if the monster quantities are extreme (and the player has to do something to instigate it), but be careful as too much of it can reduce the difficulty considerably. If you need your monsters to stay on task, keep like monsters near each other and avoid using more than 4 species of monsters in one conflict at a time. Hit-scan monsters attack each other indefinitely, like shotgun guys, chaingun guys, and spider demons Its best to use them on individual pillars or narrow ledges where they can't get in front or behind each other.

5. Bottlenecking is a term that is used often to describe what NOT to do in a slaughter map. This is when the doom guy and a giant horde of monsters chasing him are seperated by a doorway or narrow hallway. Now, instead of doom guy dealing with an entire mob of monsters at once, he can just have the mob feed in a few monsters at a time through a narrow passage, making it take quite a bit longer, but 100x easier for him to complete. Doorways also double as efficient cover from sniping monsters too, which is another reason to avoid them. If you simply need a doorway for a part of the map you're making, then do these two things:

• have a linedef trigger that shuts a door on the doorway after the player crosses it so he can't use it to his advantage
  
• conceal the monsters so that they cannot be attacked until after the player enters. (behind closet doors, teleporting in, underground and raised by instant raising floor) Alternatively, these options that purist posted in Archi's RUSH thread cover just about everything.
  

6. Surprise traps present the doomguy with unexpected consequences for things, and are a good way to combat the rule of thumb mentioned in #1. Instant raise floors, monster closets, teleport ambushes, floors descending from the ceiling, etc.

A thread like this could work pretty well in that Doom Editing Tutorials ghost town. I try to avoid posting in their as I'm not sure a thread I make in there would be comprehensive enough.

[Avoozl]

My tip: Don't make them at all, make regular maps instead.

[AD_79]

Avoozl said:

My tip: Don't make them at all, make regular maps instead.

Why not make both?

[Six]

I understand that everyone has their tastes, but what is it about slaughter maps that people like? Does the game play not get really fucking tedious after a while?

It just seems that killing a ridiculous amount of mobs repeatedly sounds like one huge chore. Is it the satisfaction of knowing you've taken out thousands of monsters? I may sound like i have no idea what i'm talking about, but that's because i genuinely don't understand slaughter maps.

I'd love to be educated.

[Rayziik]

Six said:

I understand that everyone has their tastes, but what is it about slaughter maps that people like? Does the game play not get really fucking tedious after a while?

It just seems that killing a ridiculous amount of mobs repeatedly sounds like one huge chore. Is it the satisfaction of knowing you've taken out thousands of monsters? I may sound like i have no idea what i'm talking about, but that's because i genuinely don't understand slaughter maps.

I'd love to be educated.

I tend to believe a slaughtermap that merely throws insane amounts of monsters at you without any real rhyme or reason isn't a very good map. IMHO, a good slaughtermap contains all the facets of a regular doom map; interesting visuals, thoughtful layout, maybe a puzzle or two, etc. The main difference simply being elevating the monster count to a much higher than normal amount, whether it be hordes of cannon fodder or a bunch of tough ones, while also using said monsters in a tasteful way utilizing the layout to create the difficulty instead of simply throwing 1000 imps at the player in a big room.

But then again, there are those who enjoy just mowing down 1000 imps in a big square room, and that's ok.

[j4rio]

Avoozl said:

My tip: Don't make them at all, make regular maps instead.

My tip: Disregard that tip and make only slaughter maps instead.

[Demonologist]

^^^

[snapshot]

Maes said:

1. Make a big square room.
   
2. Copy & paste 5000 monsters
   
3. ????
   
4. NUTS.WAD
   

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/11059567_1057833154229349_1046584210776686938_n.jpg?oh=e50d7ab42157a2b5a09dbafe78110696&oe=56A376CE&__gda__=1453385806_b46e80ff0650fcc901b02bacc3d06987

[Springy]

Hoodie said:

I already said this but just draw in circles and then put revenants in there and you got yourself a 5 star slaughter map mmmmmhmmmmm

No, you don't. That's more of an arena style map. I do find it hilarious how people seem to dismiss slaughter maps as nothing but killing shit tonnes of monsters in square/circle rooms with the fire button taped down. It isn't, at least not the good ones anyway. Most require a strategy, getting monsters to infight to save ammo, route planning and can exhibit non-linear game play.

[Maes]

Springy said:

No, you don't. That's more of an arena style map. I do find it hilarious how people seem to dismiss slaughter maps as nothing but killing shit tonnes of monsters in square/circle rooms with the fire button taped down. It isn't, at least not the good ones anyway. Most require a strategy, getting monsters to infight to save ammo, route planning and can exhibit non-linear game play.

Well, by those guidelines, then NUTS.WAD would definitively qualify as a "good", "strategic" slaughter map, despite its extreme simplicity: it's stupid to fire away at monsters (at least immediately), since they will do such a fine job in thinning their ranks themselves, and you are not given enough ammo to kill everything, anyway.

And YES, it does include elements of route planning/strategy to complete it. Expecting to kill every single monster before you can reach for the exit will just not work, as it won't work simply dashing into the second room head-first.

If anything, I'd put a distinction between "arena" style maps, where you fight most monsters in the open, can use Doomguy's insane speed advantage and infighting is a pretty much compulsory/unavoidable element, and "siege" maps, where you have to face overwhelming numbers of monsters AND in such a way that infighting/running circles around hordes of dumb monsters won't work, but instead, you'll have to expose yourself in order to get a few strategically placed shots through, squeeze a few potshots out of cramped windows at angles that BARELY make it possible and run for cover all the time. Kinda like...you know....actual combat?

As I said, Doom is all about flexibility. You can put the player either in the shoes of a nearly-invincible demi-god that moves as fast as lightning and rains Mass Destruction + Shock & Awe on the dumb demonic hordes, or force him to "respect" his opponents more.

[Avoozl]

.

[Da Werecat]

Preserved for posterity.

[TimeOfDeath]

Hard to believe that the nonsensical slaughtermap-bashing is still around in 2015. Don't think I've seen any of them with good demos on slaughtermaps, and most don't record at all.

If you want tips for making slaughter maps: play them, like them, be good at playing them, make them.

[j4rio]

Avoozl said:

Disregard this tip if you wish to put actual effort into making creative maps

Don't disregard this tip. If you're making a creative map, you're most likely making a slaughter map anyway.

[Springy]

Maes said:

Well, by those guidelines, then NUTS.WAD would definitively qualify as a "good", "strategic" slaughter map, despite its extreme simplicity: it's stupid to fire away at monsters (at least immediately), since they will do such a fine job in thinning their ranks themselves, and you are not given enough ammo to kill everything, anyway.

Nuts is a slaughter map yes but no it isn't a good one, notice how I used the word "most" and not the word "all".

Don't disregard this tip. If you're making a creative map, you're most likely making a slaughter map anyway.

Pretty much true nowadays most of the visually stunning maps I have seen are slaughter maps, in my opinion.

Hard to believe that the nonsensical slaughtermap-bashing is still around in 2015. Don't think I've seen any of them with good demos on slaughtermaps, and most don't record at all.

Probably because they lack patience and they're to egotistical in their own way to accept defeat if they lose to a slaughter map, so they naturally class it as not being a very good doom map because to them it's not beatable. Although to be fair, I suppose if more were made catering to all difficulty levels then maybe people might accept them more. Though they'll probably be to high on the horse to accept turning down the difficulty.

[Pure Hellspawn]

TimeOfDeath said:

Hard to believe that the nonsensical slaughtermap-bashing is still around in 2015. Don't think I've seen any of them with good demos on slaughtermaps, and most don't record at all.

If you want tips for making slaughter maps: play them, like them, be good at playing them, make them.

Coming from a fan of slaughtermaps, I agree with this.

I personally would like to see a slaughtermap with Icon of Sin spawners to add more flames to the fire. Have an easy to kill romero head at the end. Possible to get 100% kills with the "Boss Death kills spawned monsters" flag enabled.

[VGamingJunkie]

Perhaps a better way to go about a slaughter map is to make a genuinely good map first on the larger side and then add in enemies afterwards? Then it doesn't feel like a cheap cop-out and the attention to geometric level design is out of the way.

[Six]

Springy said:

Probably because they lack patience and they're to egotistical in their own way to accept defeat if they lose to a slaughter map, so they naturally class it as not being a very good doom map because to them it's not beatable.

Who said they couldn't beat them?

To me the problem is simply boredom. But the other problem is that a lot of slaughter maps i've actually played or have seen been made have the simple 'moar monstuz!' mentality. Unfortunately this makes the whole thing completely tedious.

Making a slaughter map is obviously not "easy" per se. This is clearly evident due to a lot of mappers that can't seem to get it right, and it's always the balancing. Slaughter maps should never just mean 'moar monstrums!'. Mappers need to think more about strategy, having them plan a route or a battle plan, not just "here, have 10,000+ monsters... Enjoy"

Also NEVER make fights that rely on luck.

Luck based fights are complete dog shit, sorry.

[yakfak]

...who on earth is going to value your advice on slaughtermapping after you've said that?

[Pinchy]

Every map design can benefit from the knowledge in this http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-editing-tutorials/73964-essay-article-monster-placement/

[Six]

yakfak said:

...who on earth is going to value your advice on slaughtermapping after you've said that?

All i said was don't make slaughter maps tedious, and don't add monsters for the sake of adding monsters. I might not like the play style in particular, but at least i can see where mappers are going wrong.

I also said plan your fights, plan your monsters, make it work without hitting the undesirable luck based situations which is usually always the result of a mapper not understanding monster usage/placement to the extent they should.

I could've jumped on the "don't make slaughter maps" bandwagon, but i didn't. Is it my fault i've only ever come across the badly deigned slaughter maps? Yes. The trouble is that it's mostly all i've ever come across.

Like i said, a lot of aspiring slaughter mappers tend to have the 'more monsters' mentality, and if this thread is anything to go by, this is clearly not all there is too it.

[Springy]

Six said:

Who said they couldn't beat them?

It comes up as a main point of argument as to why people are against them for instance "they're unfair, only designed to frustrate people etc". Although these are mostly found as reviews for maps in the archive. Not to mention it does seem that way but your argument for not liking them has to be one of the very few (and extremely rare) decent arguments for what seems to be being against them. I also see a lot of people mention how easy they are to make & that cannot be denied.

I can understand how long, grindy maps can be tedious, especially if you fail and have to get back on the ball again. A bit of luck based fighting to me is okay but you can't have too much of the game play being reliant on it.

Edit: I should really be at a PC if I want this to make any fucking sense whatsoever.

[dannebubinga]

I just don´t buy the argument that slaughtermaps can be beat like any other map, but are avoided because of boring gameplay. It may be true for some "less is more" designed slaughtermaps like nuts.wad. But say that about a ToD map and I will forever laugh at you for being a sour loser and a liar.

I´m very interested in hearing why extreme challenge is so unpopular over here. I at least want to know why some people just can´t accept that they don´t have the skills to beat certain maps and has to bash the map instead of their lack of skill and practice. You never hear anyone bitch about "bullshit lazy level design" in games like Gradius and DonPachi, and they are hard and grindy as fuck.

[Demonologist]

Ignorant weaklings are ignorant weaklings, what are you gonna do about it.

Before anyone says something stupid - I'm far from playing Doom maps 24/7, as I have a full time job and other things in real life, not to mention that I'm a bit too old for stuff like that at this point. So no, go search for insane sleepless geeks somewhere else, this is not how I approach all this.