Tips for making slaughter maps

[Cynical]

dannebubinga said:

I just don´t buy the argument that slaughtermaps can be beat like any other map, but are avoided because of boring gameplay. It may be true for some "less is more" designed slaughtermaps like nuts.wad. But say that about a ToD map and I will forever laugh at you for being a sour loser and a liar.

I´m very interested in hearing why extreme challenge is so unpopular over here. I at least want to know why some people just can´t accept that they don´t have the skills to beat certain maps and has to bash the map instead of their lack of skill and practice. You never hear anyone bitch about "bullshit lazy level design" in games like Gradius and DonPachi, and they are hard and grindy as fuck.

As a regular poster on a shmup forum, I can say that people routinely do complain about stupid gotchas and the associated nearly-impossible recoveries in Gradius.

(Also, since when is DonPachi hard? It's one of Cave's easiest games; I'd say that it's only harder than Deathsmiles 1 and 2, Mushi original, Futari BL Original, and DFK 1.5 Strong/Bomb. Ketsui or Batrider would have been much better games to make your point with, IMO.)

[esselfortium]

I'm far from an expert on the subject, so there's my disclaimer before I tick off any of the experienced slaughter guys, but from my perspective at least, it's best to maximize danger while minimizing time spent on "cleanup". If your horde fights are only briefly challenging and then the rest of the time is just spent picking off stragglers after the real threats have been eliminated, some players are probably going to find the map draggy.

This can apply to any type of map, but the contrast between initially dangerous fights and the resulting cleanup of basically harmless dudes becomes more exaggerated as monster counts increase to slaughter levels. If you're throwing tons of monsters at the player, it's good to keep the situation changing around the player so they have to stay on their toes.

[dannebubinga]

Cynical said:

As a regular poster on a shmup forum, I can say that people routinely do complain about stupid gotchas and the associated nearly-impossible recoveries in Gradius.

(Also, since when is DonPachi hard? It's one of Cave's easiest games; I'd say that it's only harder than Deathsmiles 1 and 2, Mushi original, Futari BL Original, and DFK 1.5 Strong/Bomb. Ketsui or Batrider would have been much better games to make your point with, IMO.)

My lurking on shmup forums failed me I guess. Well, so much for that comparison ... The average gamer seems to think Doom2 is hard, so I could only imagine how they would suffer playing DonPachi even though you think it´s easy.

The point is however that this constant bashing on bad level design instead of realizing your own flaws is getting old and I can´t really take it seriously.

[Six]

dannebubinga said:

The point is however that this constant bashing on bad level design instead of realizing your own flaws is getting old and I can´t really take it seriously.

It entirely depends on the wad though. The only good slaughter maps i've played (if they can even be referred to that, which i'm sure they can) are the last several maps in Speed of Doom. The balancing was right and the challenge was present. The situations you were placed in were entirely do-able and they didn't suffer from relentless mob spawning. It became difficult, but not boring, and unfortunately a lot of slaughter maps tend to have this problem because the mappers approach was all off.

Esselfortium makes some good points. Keep the challenge exciting and surprising. a constant and/or predictable attack isn't fun. Sure, use 3,000+ mobs, but use them wisely. Far too often i've witnessed Serious Sam levels of game play, it's not a challenge to just chuck thousands of enemies at the player.

I'm glad i've witnessed this thread because honestly, before i did, my only experience with slaughter style maps was just unimaginative placements of mobs which resulted in dull game play. This is what lead me to believe that's all there was too them.

I see now that's not true. It's just a shame some mappers have the wrong idea of what slaughter maps should represent.

[SYS]

I think design from a cooperative perspective is most important. It takes a very special snowflake to play such maps many times over so they can record their flawless single player run for Youtube.

40oz said:

Your credibility to talk about doom is shrinking :/

But that would mean he had some to start with and not being the creator of Cyberdemon Fisting Simulators.

[Cynical]

dannebubinga said:

My lurking on shmup forums failed me I guess. Well, so much for that comparison ... The average gamer seems to think Doom2 is hard, so I could only imagine how they would suffer playing DonPachi even though you think it´s easy.

The point is however that this constant bashing on bad level design instead of realizing your own flaws is getting old and I can´t really take it seriously.

I do agree with the larger point; however, I would say that expecting it to be easier to clear a single level of a tough wad than the whole of an arcade game is somewhat understandable.

I guess the counter-argument here is that there's nothing stopping you from using saves to help get you through a tough slaughter map, but you can't save while playing DonPachi (well, unless you're using an emulator, but if you're playing with savestates in an emulator, the thing you're playing only barely resembles the original game).

[dew]

dannebubinga said:

I just don´t buy the argument that slaughtermaps can be beat like any other map, but are avoided because of boring gameplay. It may be true for some "less is more" designed slaughtermaps like nuts.wad. But say that about a ToD map and I will forever laugh at you for being a sour loser and a liar.

Fuck Nostril Caverns with a rusty rake, it's the most tedious map known to man. Now come at me, bby. ;)

Seriously though, to each his own. I've seen a lot of great slaughterstuff, but the genre probably still needs maturing to truly separate chaff from wheat. Like, a lot gets hidden under the guise of "here's BFG, there's a horde, go have fun" instead of creative scenarios.

[Maes]

SYS said:

creator of Cyberdemon Fisting Simulators.

Dear Santa, I would like this as my custom title :-)

Oh and I guess I could always graduate to making Cyberdemon Fisting Simulator slaughter maps ;-)

[j4rio]

Actually, having a link that automatically adds you to ignore list in your custom title would be more fitting and convenient.

[Maes]

j4rio said:

Actually, having a link that automatically adds you to ignore list in your custom title would be more fitting and convenient.

But the way the ignore function is implemented in these forums, how would you know that I'm not insulting your mother in one of my "ignored" posts? You'd still have to check them one by one, just in case, so that'd defeat the purpose and make you more anxious and nervous, no? ;-) Can't we just all get along l0l

[SYS]

Maes said:

Oh and I guess I could always graduate to making Cyberdemon Fisting Simulator slaughter maps ;-)

Complete with BFF-9000 go-go-go-go-go.

[VGamingJunkie]

Poorly designed slaughter maps actually end up being pretty easy (Unless you just refuse to give the player any decent weapons) because the monsters are compact that their projectiles hit each other which, in a room of diverse monster types, can actually work to their detriment as they in-fight insanely easily.

[gemini09]

My enjoyment of slaughter-wads hasn't necessarily been more engaging than a same-difficulty wad with much fewer monsters utilized, and honestly I've played my share of hard maps years ago.

While the visuals have improved over the years I can't say the gameplay necessarily has gotten any more interesting. What if we increased monster-count of the original Doom 2 maps into slaughter-territory? They'd also be "slaughter maps", wouldn't they?

I think some light-hearted but fast-action platforming like jumping and navigating, as opposed to switch-hunting, would complement slaughter-maps well, as I think some maps to some degrees did in Deus Vult 2, and a couple of maps from Sunder (though I did find them both to be too extreme in both navigating and monster-count.

Also, I found a joke as I was writing this.... I think a few of the maps in some Slaughterfest beta, had only like 3 colossal rooms and a gameplay that consisted of a retarded dance between the player and monsters, so maybe while we're designing slaughter-maps, we don't need to spread the initial vertices like they were the legs of a prostitute.

[Maes]

Well, making -and playing- slaughtermaps is an art. To me, the term "slaughtermap" implies that:

1. There's a higher than average monster count
   
2. The player is given some overwhelming advantage in terms of firepower, mobility, cover or alternate routes, which allow a relatively high "kills per minute" performance, and is expected to use them.
   

If you remove one of these points, then it's no longer a slaughtermap.

If you remove 1, then it's simply a normal map (and probably a quite easy one, at that) or maybe a puzzle/exploratory map, where the monsters aren't actually the greatest challenge the player will encounter.

If you remove 2, then it will be a long, tedious grind, where the implied "fast & easy slaughter" part is not really honoured (or ever promised, for that matter). Infamous example: HORDES.WAD, where you literally have to clear 50 rooms full of zombies, imps, demons and barons ONE-BY-FUCKING-ONE, using nothing more powerful than a shotgun for the first 25 rooms.

Or, if there's enough firepower but not enough maneuvering space (DMINATOR.WAD, I'm looking at you), then it's simply a clusterfuck.

In fact, I think most people, when they think "slaughtermap", they also assume that there must be some elegant and -relatively- quick way of completing them, engaging the player in a beautiful choreography of constant movement and strategical shooting. If you think about it, that's what the most cherished UV-MAX runs display, and perhaps that's what slaughtermaps proper are all about.

Even the infamous NUTS.WAD actually has this "strategic elegance" element, even if it's reduced to dump circle-strafing/merrygorounding/ring-o-rosing the monsters until they thin their ranks themselves.

But remove that "fast & easy mindless and elegant mass-killings" factor....suddenly you have to kill each one of these motherfuckers (the monsters) one by one. A map with 1000 monsters which was a breeze in "pure slaughter" mode suddenly becomes a weekend project. Yeah, you will have a "slaughter", a "massacre" if you succeed, but will you have it before you start growing stubble? :)

[VGamingJunkie]

I had a funny idea of a joke where the player can see into the next room with a window and it's full of monsters all slaughter map style but, if the player looks around before running in, they'll notice a switch that activates a crusher ceiling that kills all the monsters in said room while the player gets to watch through the aforementioned window.

[Maes]

MetroidJunkie said:

I had a funny idea of a joke where the player can see into the next room with a window and it's full of monsters all slaughter map style but, if the player looks around before running in, they'll notice a switch that activates a crusher ceiling that kills all the monsters in said room while the player gets to watch through the aforementioned window.

That's the "overwhelming advantage the player is expected to use" I was talking about.

DOOM MASTER: "BEHOLD, DOOMGUY! YOU MUST NOW KILL AND RECTALLY SODOMIZE THE ENTIRE DEMON ARMY IN THIS NEXT ROOM, ONE BY ONE, TO ASSERT YOUR VICTORY OVER THE FORCES OF EVIL!"

Doomguy: Geez...do I really have to? Sounds like a lot of work. And it's full of disgusting mancubuses, which are not so memorable.

DOOM MASTER: Well...or you can press this button here which will kill them just the same. But you STILL have to rectally sod....

Doomguy: Screw this, I'm gone.

Well...what I mean is that in slaughter maps you're usually not expected to really take everyone one-by-one, though having a single switch doing all the work for you would indeed cross the boundary of a cruel joke, especially if it's discovered only a-posteriori. Maybe as a secret aid/only for some areas maybe.

[VGamingJunkie]

The switch wouldn't be obscured or hidden in any way, it's the player's own fault if they rush right in without taking the time to look around.

[Da Werecat]

Great. Apparently, I made a slaughter map.

[Budoka]

MetroidJunkie said:

it's full of monsters all slaughter map style but, if the player looks around before running in, they'll notice a switch that activates a crusher ceiling that kills all the monsters

That sounds like something out of a jokewad like Mock 2 or dparody, put it in a map that is advertised as having actual content and you may just get shit on.

Anyway, reading this thread, I'm reminded of some of the slaughter maps in Resurgence, like "Poison Oak" or "Technoprison II". They really come across to me as cleverly made levels, and watching Nevanos's demos on them, the progression is very dynamic.

Granted, a less gifted player might turn them into tedious crawls, but in that case it would be their own freaking fault.

[Chezza]

Reading this thread is actually shifting my opinions of slaughtermaps. I'm still not a fan of them myself as I find completing them would tire someone like myself out but the discussion of quality vs bad slaughtermaps convinces me there is a real art behind it and it's not necessarily easy, although everyone seems to have their own opinion on what's the ideal map.

I do have a question about them. Are you supposed to kill every monster in these maps? There are many moments of far distant turret monsters on platforms that can dodge a bunch of rockets because of their random wandering which is frustrating. So I'm curious if these are ignored by fans of these wads.

And another question would be whether the player should be the one feeling powerful or for majority of the time stressed under pressure for survival?

I'm gradually getting the urge to eventually make one myself to see if I'm capable of capturing the essence of these wads. Although I won't enjoy playtesting it over and over.

[VGamingJunkie]

I imagine it's more effective to make the player feel powerful while, at the same time, being bombarded at. You're basically a glass cannon, you've got a ton of firepower but one wrong move and you're a stain on the floor. The helpless feeling works better with fewer tougher enemies because mobs full, they end up hitting (and infighting possibly) each other more often than not.

[Maes]

Chezza said:

I do have a question about them. Are you supposed to kill every monster in these maps?

If you go for UV-MAX, sure. Otherwise, it's often "good enough" to clear the area enough so that Doomguy can relax for a while and light a cig, so to speak.

Chezza said:

IThere are many moments of far distant turret monsters on platforms that can dodge a bunch of rockets because of their random wandering which is frustrating.

Or wandering lost souls on large levels with lots of pillars, "mountains" etc. I usually don't bother hunting these down. For those annoying monsters on ledges, turrets etc., I either fire a volley of 2-3 rockets just to be sure (ammo permitting), or chaingun-snipe them.

Chezza said:

And another question would be whether the player should be the one feeling powerful or for majority of the time stressed under pressure for survival?

That's one of the major "art" factors in slaughtermaps: the player should be given just enough firepower not to run away like a pussy at the first mid-level mob he encounters, nor be pampered with so much firepower, health or even invincibility bonuses that he simply BFG-spam his way through hordes of monsters like a hot knife through butter (or at least, not during the entire fucking map). So, powerful, but with a constant reminder that he's not invincible (e.g. limited ammo and health, limited defendability of any position, constant threat of being encircled or cornered etc.)

BTW, something extremely hard to get right is a pure Doom 1 slaughter map: the lack of the SSG and of mid-tier monsters makes it hard to balance between hordes of zombies, pinkies and imps, and annoying the player with ammo-soaking cacos, barons and bitchy annoying lost souls.

[slowtorturepukechamber]

Make sure you put enough resources to help the player out, ex. lots of weapons, ammo, medikits, Megaspheres, stuff like that.

Everyone says to just make a room and put a bunch of monsters in it, but actually there is a lot of planning that goes into a slaughter map.

You must make sure that the main room isn't overloaded with monsters, put little alcoves where the player can hide out for a while. Make sure there's rooms where the player can lure monsters in, etc.

Make sure you use a good combination of monsters, too. Don't just put a bajillion different monsters down. And just because it's a slaughter map, doesn't mean you don't have to put detail into the architecture.

I've seen way too many slaughter maps that are just one big square room with a brick wall texture and generic sky texture, with some lifted floors, and columns. It gets really old. Make sure your map is unique.

[Phml]

from my perspective at least, it's best to maximize danger while minimizing time spent on "cleanup".

Are you supposed to kill every monster in these maps?

Sometimes, a specific horde size gives you gameplay dynamics you couldn't get with a lower monster count. Sometimes, hordes make for more options and challenges on a macro basis, letting monsters spill onto other areas of the map. The cleanup is a problem, but I find myself wishing we as a community weren't so focused on maxing kills. Some slaughter maps are at their best when your primary goal is survival, killing enemies a byproduct of that goal, and total extinction a "bonus stage" you only go for if you enjoy the map so much you jump on any reason to spend more time playing.

[dew]

Phml said:

The cleanup is a problem, but I find myself wishing we as a community weren't so focused on maxing kills.

It stems from the close connection between slaughterwads and hardcore maxrunners. They're involved in mapping and testing on top of basically being the most visible representatives of the target group. Demos will inevitably be made to capture the beating of a slaughtermap and that will inevitably be a max or a close approximation in case of FDAs. I guess that rubs onto casual slaughter players as well - the map's not properly beaten unless I make like tod or jario and everything is ground to dust. Then comes a feeling of accomplishment, unlike finishing a map because Doom Marine placed a puddle of sector type 11 near the start. But you probably know that well and I'm preaching to the choir, heh.

[j4rio]

I'm actually strongly for ignoring maxkills when playing casually. It's more fun if you don't need to bother with all the harmless stragglers and just focus on survival.

[Phml]

It stems from the close connection between slaughterwads and hardcore maxrunners. [...] I guess that rubs onto casual slaughter players as well - the map's not properly beaten unless I make like tod or jario and everything is ground to dust.

Right, definitely. There's no pressure as there would be in a competitive environment, but it's still the public image of how these maps are meant to be played, it's an influence.

Couple that with natural completionist instincts, add in expectations from normal Doom gameplay... Can't really blame anyone for getting trapped in a mindset that doesn't let them enjoy slaughterwads (assuming they wouldn't dislike the genre regardless, which is just as valid an opinion).

[Ashstrodamus]

dannebubinga said:

I just don´t buy the argument that slaughtermaps can be beat like any other map, but are avoided because of boring gameplay. It may be true for some "less is more" designed slaughtermaps like nuts.wad. But say that about a ToD map and I will forever laugh at you for being a sour loser and a liar.

I´m very interested in hearing why extreme challenge is so unpopular over here. I at least want to know why some people just can´t accept that they don´t have the skills to beat certain maps and has to bash the map instead of their lack of skill and practice. You never hear anyone bitch about "bullshit lazy level design" in games like Gradius and DonPachi, and they are hard and grindy as fuck.

Totally agree. I've watched guys on youtube for years such as Rayzik, tatsurdcacocaco, j4rio, Nevanos, and I said, that's how I want to play Doom wads. It's takes a lot of patience and grinding to get to that level and I'm not even close. Once in awhile I'll find a reasonably easy wad that I enjoy, but I only try to play really difficult wads now. No more spam-saving for me, and I don't feel complete unless I UV-Max/pistol start each level. I finally UV-Maxed map 23 of Scythe 2 and it took me probably 1000+ starts to get it. I watched j4rio improve his skills dramatically over the past few years on youtube and a person can get there, they've just got to put in the work. I've played guitar for 27 years and I didn't get good by not trying new and harder things.