If id had made Doom 3 in 1995...

[SavageCorona]

I think it would've been alright.

[DMPhobos]

scifista42 said:

Also, there was an abandoned ZDoom wad with a goal to recreate Doom 3 as if it was made soon after Doom 2. Supposedly a lot of art/spritework went into the wad, and most of it was lost. I remember seeing an alpha version video, a wadsinprogress.info page and ZDoom forum page, but again, I forgot the name of the project and can't find a proof now.

Im pretty sure that it was Doom 2.5, and it was for EDGE... or maybe you meant this proyect that i was working on with z0k back in the day?

Anyway back on topic.
It's kinda hard to tell, but if id software had made Doom 3 right after Doom 2 came out, im pretty sure it would use the Quake engine since it was already in development (And im pretty sure that Carmack would never allow the id crew to continue to use the doom engine for the new game), had there been any new monsters, new weapons, they would had been designed to "showcase" the engine new features over the previous one, like having huge monsters, ... Heh, not so diferent from what Quake was.
Maybe the new plot would involve a surprise demon invasion during the rebuilding of earth?

[IMX]

Soundblock said:

Well, I shot him a line for the hell of it, asking for a piece of his mind on the issue. He's "kinda busy" but check this out.

Punchatz: "thought I'd share something I was moving around my house when I got your text"

https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t34.0-12/12083724_10156136030805187_928359049_n.jpg?oh=51f46dd484ffc29d236434e7c14f3853&oe=56180237

I am extremely confused right now

Is that the original model?

[Chezza]

That Wraith model in Realm 667, was that suppose to be apart of the Doom 3 or 2.5 project?

[joe-ilya]

Jayextee made some maps in the style of doom 3 for his (inactive) doom 3 episode for ultimate doom.

[SavageCorona]

I remember an 3DGE mod which pretty much remade Doom 3 in the Doom 1 engine (as best as it could) a while back in one of my threads where I was asking for Doom 1 mods in the style of Doom 3 since there were already Doom 1 mods for Doom 3.

[scifista42]

DMPhobos said:

Im pretty sure that it was Doom 2.5, and it was for EDGE...

Indeed it was, thanks.

[Koko Ricky]

Was it any good?

[Soundblock]

IMX said:

I am extremely confused right now

Is that the original model?

Chances are that it is. More than likely.

[scifista42]

GoatLord said:

Was it any good?

Judge for yourself, GreyGhost provided a clean link here!

[TMD]

It would have been some happy medium between Doom II and Doom IIII, of course!

[Pirx]

Maes said:

If such an engine was released in 1995, sure, it would keep Doom competitive for a few years to come -the improvements required would be relatively minor-. Let's even assume that id released a complete equivalent to Boom already in 1995, along with new levels and resources to go with it. How long would Doom stay mainstream then?

that doom would have been tough competition for id's own quake. but switching from sprites to polygon engines was unavoidable, perhaps it would have bought sprite engines another year or two at most (1997 had quake2 already and 1998 had unreal).

as for comparing it with the build engine, that one seems better for recreating realistic surroundings, while doom (in whatever port) looks rather blocky, hence better suited for abstract stuff.

Gez said:

Based on that, a Doom III continuing the trend would have provided new stuff reinforcing these elements. Examples of stuff that could have been imagined:
- damage boost powerup (like Quake's quad damage) which reward player rushing in combat to take as many enemies as possible during the short time the powerup is active
- inversely, something that reduces damage the player takes (or give a % chance not to take damage at all) could fit the same function of inciting the player to rush into combat to take advantage of that protection before it runs out
- armor kits giving +50 armor instead of just +1, for when a megasphere would be too much
- newer, weirder monster niches. [snip]

that seems likely. it's very obvious that doom lacks doom2 mid-level opponents that go down in 2-3 ssg blasts (and the ssg itself). there's zombies and imps to mow down by the dozens and clumsy barons as roadblocks, with nothing but the occasional caco in between.

scifista42 said:

It would be Quake. Quake was even originally meant to become "Doom 3", or I think I've read about it somewhere here, but can't find source of this information now.

Also, there was an abandoned ZDoom wad with a goal to recreate Doom 3 as if it was made soon after Doom 2. Supposedly a lot of art/spritework went into the wad, and most of it was lost. I remember seeing an alpha version video, a wadsinprogress.info page and ZDoom forum page, but again, I forgot the name of the project and can't find a proof now.

If anybody recognizes what I'm talking about, please post links.

didn't romero say that quake was going to be more rpg-like, where the player had a huge hammer to bash other player's heads in? then it turned out to be too complex for the time and they went back to their fps roots.

btw, another doom3 inspired mod: legacy of suffering

[VGamingJunkie]

It's probably a good thing that they threw Doom to the backburner for a while in favor of Quake, wouldn't want to just rely on one franchise forever. It would go stale very quickly.

[scifista42]

Pirx said:

btw, another doom3 inspired mod: legacy of suffering

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV9aW_Mtbok

I have apparently mixed memories of LoS with Doom 2.5 together, sorry for that.

By the way, as reported here 3 years ago, the Legacy of Suffering Cacoward page link still doesn't link to the official /idgames page, but to (now dead) brdoom.

[Da Werecat]

Pirx said:

as for comparing it with the build engine, that one seems better for recreating realistic surroundings, while doom (in whatever port) looks rather blocky, hence better suited for abstract stuff.

Are you sure that engines are responsible?

[VGamingJunkie]

The only thing that's really "blockier" about Doom compared to the Build engine (Or at least compared to Duke 3D, the most well known build game) is that the latter has slopes. Both are equally capable of creating similar complex surroundings, Doom's abstraction was an intentional design choice.

[Linguica]

david_a said:

Interestingly, Carmack has actually talked about this very scenario!

Here's an exact quote from http://floodyberry.com/carmack/johnc_plan_1998.html#d19980313

Towards the end of Quake 1's development I was thinking that we might have been better off splitting quake on those categories, but in reverse order. Doing client/server, the better modification framework, and qc, coupled with a spiced up DOOM engine (Duke style) for one game, then doing the full 3D renderer for the following game.

So basically a game made with something resembling ZDoom.

[VGamingJunkie]

Unless I'm mistaken, on a semi-related note, Quake for the Sega Saturn was actually the Build Engine so not truly 3D in its engine but with 3D models inserted into it. Sort of like their version of one of the OpenGL source ports of Doom. I'm guessing the Saturn couldn't handle the Quake engine in full or it wouldn't have performed as well or something.

[Da Werecat]

It wasn't Build, it was the Slavedriver engine. It was used in the console versions of Powerslave.

[VGamingJunkie]

Ah, I got mixed up since Duke 3D for the Saturn also used the Slavedriver engine and you normally associate it with the build engine.

[scalliano]

Chezza said:

That Wraith model in Realm 667, was that suppose to be apart of the Doom 3 or 2.5 project?

http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15631

More or less defunct now.

[IMX]

Soundblock said:

Chances are that it is. More than likely.

But someone posted not too long ago a few pictures of the Mastermind model (I'm speaking of the SpiderDemon here) that is still in id software's offices, inside its case and everything.

[Jaxxoon R]

MetroidJunkie said:

Ah, I got mixed up since Duke 3D for the Saturn also used the Slavedriver engine and you normally associate it with the build engine.

Yeah, Slavedriver was all polygons in terms of geometry. Though it wasn't until Saturn Quake that they added in 3D enemies.

[VGamingJunkie]

Odd, I would have assumed it was 2.5-D because the Saturn Quake has such simplified geometry in places that look like Build engine esque trickery.

[Da Werecat]

When I played the PS1 version of Powerslave I noticed that the levels were pretty similar to what you could achieve with 3D floors. Lots of vertices were lined up vertically. I thought that either the mappers were using a very coarse grid to build most of the architecture, or the engine is not entirely 3D.

Although some of the 3D detailing (like that face in one of the last levels) looked a little too elaborate for an advanced 2.5D engine, so I don't know what to think.

[wallabra]

This is why I hate modernity. Except the burger, the microwave, the blu-ray, the Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament discussion, the MMO, the servers, ZDoom, Zandronum and my shit.

[VGamingJunkie]

I'm all for modern technology but modern thinking seems to be devolving.

[wallabra]

Yea, it is.

[scifista42]

Gustavo6046 said:

This is why I hate modernity.

"This" = what?

[Soundblock]

IMX said:

But someone posted not too long ago a few pictures of the Mastermind model (I'm speaking of the SpiderDemon here) that is still in id software's offices, inside its case and everything.

Good question. I asked Punchatz about which is which and here's his reply:

"After the animation was completed the original skin was a bit beat up. id contacted me to recast the skin and connected to the original body. So I kept the head, so the one at IDs office is only half original, this is the piece of rubber that was photographed."

There you have it. It is the original, later severed, head.

EDIT:
Some mistakes made by Siri (scan/skin, it/id), later corrected, inserted to the quoted text.