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Revved

Demo bounties/commissions

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So I decided to bring up this idea up after having frustrations with demos I want to make but just can't.

I realized that I'm not gonna get anywhere with some demos I can make, and I know simply requesting someone to make them for me isn't enough, so I decided to realize a concept of demo bounties/commissions.
This is where you pay someone to make a demo and will be rewarded a certain amount of the issuer's choosing.

You can make any demo on any WAD that you want.
Just a couple of ground rules though:
1. Make sure that the demo you want is actually possible, so I don't want to see shit like chillax maxdemos.
2. The higher the difficulty of the run or the more you want it done, the higher the price.
3. If you're commissioning a demo, make sure you can follow up on your payment.
4. In the case of normal demos such as max, speed, fast, NM, the demo must be as optimized as possible. People who half-ass it with slow runs of the demo in question will only receive a fraction of the amount. Should an existing failed attempt at the run already exist, the player is encouraged to get to that point in the run near or faster than the time the other person had failed at.
5. Should 2 people be doing the same demo at once, the money will be split between the both of them and the person with the faster time will get a bigger portion of the money. Of course, if one of them doesn't follow up on their demo, then the full amount will be issued towards the other player.
6. Should the donor/recipient reveal any personal information about the other in public after the money is issued, the person in question will not be able to receive money from future commissions.

I'll start off with ones I want:
Heroes' Tales - Map 19 - UV Max - $30. - claimed by Cyberdemon531
Reverie - Map 30 - UV Max - $30 - claimed by Cyberdemon531

Once the demo is done, PM me your email address and I'll send the money over to your account.
Of course, others are free to commission demos they want and I'll update this post to list the demos and their amounts as well.
I currently accept VISA/Paypal.

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MD922 said:

So no matter how slow the run could be, you'll pay them? Seems unreasonable even for the hardest runs.


I agree. Point 4 is too subjective where a financial transaction is taking place. You should include a sub x.xx time limit where x is the slowest time you'd be willing to accept for your money.

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I had this idea for a long time but was afraid to start such a thread because, you know... when money comes into play, the -recordfromto option begins to seem dangerously attractive. I was afraid that I'll encourage cheating and I definitely didn't want anything like that to happen. So I dropped the idea.

I think this is a rather serious issue to think about. If an attractive bounty (and 30$ isn't that small of a sum IMO; yeah I'm a poor Russian student...) seduces someone to become a cheater, that will be just really shitty. You should at least demand that the demos are recorded in ZDoom format, where there are no (?) known TAS tools, and maybe also that the claimant streams all attempts on twitch.tv.

There was a similar thread on the Elastomania forums and it worked pretty well, however there we have a port with online confirmation of runs, encryption and everything, plus the game is closed source and is kinda hard to reverse engineer. Some programmers claim that it is still possible to cheat but at least there is some sort of protection. But in PrBoom-Plus, where cheating tools are available to anyone... I don't like where this is goes.

Or what other people think? Am I taking demos for some computer game too seriously?

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I agree on the subjectivity issues with demo optimizations. Noobait already has a demo for Rev map 30 in the failed demo thread. I'm not sure where he failed but he reached the exit in 8:53 almost 4 mins faster than this commissioned demo...

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Memfis said:

You should at least demand that the demos are recorded in ZDoom format, where there are no (?) known TAS tools, and maybe also that the claimant streams all attempts on twitch.tv.


When money is brought into play, all sorts of cheating possibilities will be attempted. Not so long ago there was a case of cheating in a prestigious chess tournament where a lot of cash was in the bet. Making this a zdoom-only thing would just inspire someone to hack in TAS features that would still play back with certain versions, or something like that. I think streaming all attempts is as close as you can get to anti-cheating verification.

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Memfis said:

Or what other people think? Am I taking demos for some computer game too seriously?

Agree. In general on speedruns you can get money but in different way.
I know a few Youtube channels like: 'SpeedDemosArchiveSDA' or 'Game done quick" or something else where speedrunERS really gets money by donations but they do it (beat the game) in real time.
All recorded demos here and uploaded on DSDA not for money - it's just like a hobby and get some attention from people who interested in it.
Twitch not the best way too as player can launch recorded demo
//I saw somewhere demo on DSDA on engine ZDoom which was marked as TAS. I hope i'll find that demo again

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Azuruish said:

Twitch not the best way too as player can launch recorded demo


Showing cmd line with parameters before attempting anything?

Doing a certain action in real time asked for by watcher(s) to prove the demo is currently being recorded rather than just played back?

Another easy detection method would be going to quit game menu. If the demo is pre-recorded it will continue playing, while it would stop if it was a real-time recording attempt. I'm not sure if this is possible to set up for abuse somehow though.

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I always find these cheating discussions kind of funny. Short of actually being physically present during the run, I don't think there is any way for there to be no doubt regarding the legitimacy of a run. Instead, I think you need to focus on a more realistic goal: find a way to make it as hard as possible for cheaters, but in a way which doesn't affect the average player too much.

Sure, Twitch doesn't provide irrefutable proof that you didn't cheat at a videogame, but its a hell of a lot more convincing than some of these unbelievable runs that materialize out of nowhere from time to time.

Revved said:

Reverie - Map 30 - UV Max - $30 - claimed by Cyberdemon531


For what it's worth, I had a failed exit which only missed 2-3

chaingunners and is 4 minutes faster than what Cyber submitted above :P

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j4rio said:

Another easy detection method would be going to quit game menu. If the demo is pre-recorded it will continue playing, while it would stop if it was a real-time recording attempt. I'm not sure if this is possible to set up for abuse somehow though.

I don't know source code of prboom engine or original 1.9 doom but I'm sure that possible make a little hack:
if you press ESC - at the same time will be pressed 'pause_key' but string "paused" will be hidden. //demo will be stopped
In this case i can avoid your... identification.

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j4rio said:

Another easy detection method would be going to quit game menu. If the demo is pre-recorded it will continue playing, while it would stop if it was a real-time recording attempt. I'm not sure if this is possible to set up for abuse somehow though.


Pretty easily, actually. Make a PWAD where the graphic with PAUSE is replaced with a transparent graphic and put it as one of the autoloading PWADs and then just press Escape and the Pause key at the same time at request. Or just modify the IWAD in this way (shouldn't cause a desync, I have no idea, though). Or modify a source port so it automatically pauses the demo if you go into menu or modify it to allow double keybind on one key (Menu + Pause, together with the removed/transparent PAUSE graphic).

j4rio said:

Showing cmd line with parameters before attempting anything?


Someone can create a simple program or actually just make an alias in command line that would act like a source port itself but in fact it would just load the demo. The command line itself can be modified, too.

Unless someone takes the time to actually create some verification system similar to let's say Elastomania as Memfis mentioned and only demos recorded with the newly created source port with the verification system will be allowed or you set some absolutely ridiculous rules to follow (like you have to stream a video at the start of which you have to show up on the screen with a newspaper from that day, then go on the street to find some street clock and then go back to your computer to actually start recording the demo) then I think we will have to deal with the fact that the demo can be cheated *somehow*.

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Cyber's runs were streamed, and immediately after the posting of the thread, so there's little doubt about the legitimacy (he wouldn't have had the time to create a pre-recorded demo). In general, if the streamer shows a significant number of attempts and does not suddenly launch an already recorded run out of nowhere, then it's probably legitimate; it is also possible to use a program to show the user's inputs on screen.

Also, regarding Cyber's time on Reverie 30, I agree the demo looked pretty slow, but Revved did actually mention the time he wanted beaten in his stream chat.

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Azuruish said:

Agree. In general on speedruns you can get money but in different way.
I know a few Youtube channels like: 'SpeedDemosArchiveSDA' or 'Game done quick" or something else where speedrunERS really gets money by donations but they do it (beat the game) in real time.


What? Speedrunners themselves don't get any of those donations IIRC, they're usually redirected to some cancer research foundations. In order to get personal donations, those guys usually leave their paypal address or something and wait for some benevolent person to throw some money there.
If you're popular enough, you will make some real money, no matter who you are. But... Damn, I imagined a speedrunning popstar.

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Keyboard_Doomer said:

...


I'm not denying there are technical possibilities of achieving that, but it's still throwing common sense out of the window. The hypothetical cheater would still have to confuse the audience first with a showcase of skill that is undeniably comparable to the one existing in the pre-recorded cheated demo, because there is just no way to produce desired achievement out of the blue within first attempt whatsoever.

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For some added awesomeness, make it a charity thing. Instead of rewarding the player, reward the world. There are many places where Hell on Earth is reality. We are the lucky ones who have the opportunity to enjoy an awesome game, so let's be even more awesome and donate the bounty money to whatever honorable cause. Playing a favorite game is about as good as existing in this world can get. Playing Doom is a meditative bliss and I'm sure everyone here enjoys living and playing Doom even without the added bounty. Imagine making the world a better place by shooting imps. It can be done.

It doesn't need to be big. Maybe there is some unlucky Doomworld member who needs money like Walter White? Internet was made for stuff like this.

Let's be awesome, dudes!

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Aqfaq said:

For some added awesomeness, make it a charity thing. Instead of rewarding the player, reward the world. There are many places where Hell on Earth is reality. We are the lucky ones who have the opportunity to enjoy an awesome game, so let's be even more awesome and donate the bounty money to whatever honorable cause. Playing a favorite game is about as good as existing in this world can get. Playing Doom is a meditative bliss and I'm sure everyone here enjoys living and playing Doom even without the added bounty. Imagine making the world a better place by shooting imps. It can be done.

It doesn't need to be big. Maybe there is some unlucky Doomworld member who needs money like Walter White? Internet was made for stuff like this.

Let's be awesome, dudes!

Thanks for the optimism, Aqfaq.
Of course, I wasn't planning for these bounties to go to charities, this was more of a thing someone could do if someone was strapped for cash or if someone really wanted to see a demo done but no one could be bothered to do it with a simple request.
Given that you'd get money for this anyway, the person who claims the bounties would be able to do whatever they want with it, including for charitable purposes.

Maybe someone here wants to make Doom Games Done Quick a thing?

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It'd be cool to coordinate a doom marathon similar to GDQ, but the problem with that is that I doubt many people would watch IL grinds or something, most people are interested in full game runs (ala D2ALL) and not many actually actively do those. Although, some long and epic max runs (like scythe map30 for example) could work as an IL showcase, but it'd be pretty tough to coordinate all around, and have it not just be me doing 15 hours of max movies :P

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This sounds like a terrible idea to me in its current form. I'll have to think about all the consequences stemming from this, but paying for mediocre demos by whomever with enough time on their hands is certainly not a way to develop the community. Memfis mentioned Elastomania, but is this really something common in other speedrunning communities? And what happens when you dish out the money and another person casually smashes the rewarded time, perhaps just hours later?

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dew said:

This sounds like a terrible idea to me in its current form. I'll have to think about all the consequences stemming from this, but paying for mediocre demos by whomever with enough time on their hands is certainly not a way to develop the community. Memfis mentioned Elastomania, but is this really something common in other speedrunning communities? And what happens when you dish out the money and another person casually smashes the rewarded time, perhaps just hours later?

Bounties are extremely common in speed running, but mostly for glitch-finding or route changes. There was like a thousand dollars up for grabs on a super mario 64 glitch at some point IIRC.

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Cyberdemon531 said:

Bounties are extremely common in speed running, but mostly for glitch-finding or route changes. There was like a thousand dollars up for grabs on a super mario 64 glitch at some point IIRC.

Yeah, this doesn't apply to Doom at all since it's open source and glitches are so well described. I'm forgetting there's literally no community like Doom, what with 20 years of custom content exploiting all the known bugs on purpose and whatnot, heh. This is actually another point to bring up: I'd feel very negative towards a bounty on a trick I inserted into a map.

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