Using attic and Phase 2 secret level resources to make a FreeWolf3D

[Jewellds]

I have created a working IWAD pk3 for Ecwolf, which can be downloaded here

This was cobbled together over a couple of evenings to prove that it can be done and provide a potential base for any future work. So, don't expect anything spectacular. All assets are either original or taken from Freedoom and its attic, apart from the Wolf3d pallete, which should probably be replaced with something unique.

To run this, download an SVN build of ECwolf (1.3 won't work), or compile it. ECwolf doesn't seem to have -iwad or a similar parameter, so to run this IWAD you will need to modify the iwadinfo lump in ecwolf.pk3. Replace that file with this one.

[MrFlibble]

Jewellds said:

This was cobbled together over a couple of evenings to prove that it can be done and provide a potential base for any future work. So, don't expect anything spectacular. All assets are either original or taken from Freedoom and its attic, apart from the Wolf3d pallete, which should probably be replaced with something unique.

Thanks! What about the maps? Did you create a test map yourself? Perhaps someone from the Wolf3D mapping community would donate their maps to the project?

As for the palette, is it possible to use the Freedoom palette (or adapt/rearrange it to work in lieu of the Wolf3D one)? Or will that break mod compatibility?

[Jewellds]

MrFlibble said:

Thanks! What about the maps? Did you create a test map yourself? Perhaps someone from the Wolf3D mapping community would donate their maps to the project?

Yes, I did create the test map myself. I used Havoc's Wolf3d Editor, which can create and export WAD maps that ECwolf can read.
I'm not involved in the Wolf3d community, but have mapped for the game in the past, so I might be able to contribute some maps. :)

MrFlibble said:

As for the palette, is it possible to use the Freedoom palette (or adapt/rearrange it to work in lieu of the Wolf3D one)? Or will that break mod compatibility?

It's certainly possible, although in my opinion a tailor-made palette would be better to give the game a unique feel. Freedoom's palette is a 1-to-1 match with Doom's.

As for mod compatibility, ECwolf doesn't have enough mods to justify including it, in my opinion.

[MrFlibble]

I've just checked the test build. The HUD face offset needs to be fixed so that it is centred, but everything else works fine:

The menu font will need to be sized down or replaced altogether.

BTW, what software did you use to convert the graphics?

On another note (more of ECWolf related), I haven't found the option to turn off weapon bobbing.

[Jewellds]

Thanks for taking a look, Mr. Flibble :). All the graphics in that build are pretty much intended to be placeholders. The BIGFONT in doom is too large for Wolfenstein and the HUD font is too small, but I just chose the nearest match so I could get a proof of concept done quickly.

The PK3 file was assembled in SLADE, and most of the graphics were converted there, although some I edited or made from scratch in Paint Shop Pro.

As for weapon bobbing, that's an ECwolf feature I enabled in the PK3 file. So, if you don't like it, you'll have to edit test.pk3. To remove it, find the DECORATE lump. Change player.movebob to 0 and add the line +WEAPON.DONTBOB to the properties for the Rifle actor. Or, play around with the numbers until you find something more pleasing to you. :)

[MrFlibble]

Jewellds said:

As for weapon bobbing, that's an ECwolf feature I enabled in the PK3 file. So, if you don't like it, you'll have to edit test.pk3. To remove it, find the DECORATE lump. Change player.movebob to 0 and add the line +WEAPON.DONTBOB to the properties for the Rifle actor. Or, play around with the numbers until you find something more pleasing to you. :)

Thanks, I didn't know that (I assumed that ECWolf would have a menu option for bobbing).

As for the project, I suppose that kinkyfriend's status bar face would be a nice BJ replacement?

[YukiHerz]

A little suggestion for the story: Going the Ace Combat way.

Setting the story in a fictional world similar to our own, with different countries and organizations, for example:

You're *Insert Player Name*, a Special Forces soldier working for the Western Federation, which is currently in war with the 6th Kroman Empire, your mission is to infiltrate Kroman bases and eliminate special targets (the bosses) and/or foil their plans, thus allowing the Western Federation an easier victory.

Just an idea.

[HorrorMovieRei]

So, I found this the other day, there's some pretty good sprites in here
http://leileilol.mancubus.net/garyacordsucks/64.246.6.138/_gcsgames.com/GCSenemy/sprites.htm

It's apparently a site with resources for making 90's 3D games. The site says the sprites are free to use as long as we give credit to the artists. The problem is that the site has been dead for 12 years, so I doubt we'll be able to contact the authors about donating the sprites to our project. I mean, the site does say they're free to use, but you know...
The page seems to be hosted on Leileilol's site though, so maybe we could ask him on the legal status of using those sprites?

[jute]

I think it would be unwise to use those sprites in a FOSS project for many reasons, like not being able to contact authors and not being able to verify that the assets are 100% from scratch (many seem to use GCS assets as a base). I agree with MrFlibbles that contacting MarlboroMike about his sprite work would be the best plan.

That said, I spent many hours with the GCS when I was a kid and I had some nostalgic fun visiting this site in 2015.

[MrFlibble]

jute said:

I think it would be unwise to use those sprites in a FOSS project for many reasons, like not being able to contact authors and not being able to verify that the assets are 100% from scratch (many seem to use GCS assets as a base).

Indeed many if not most of the humanoid monsters on that page are derived from the default enemies incldued with Pie in the Sky's 3D Game Creation System (which leileilol's site is about). Some might be even based on modified Wolfenstein 3-D art, and one seems like it's derived from a Ken's Labyrinth monster. Not sure though.

jute said:

contacting MarlboroMike about his sprite work would be the best plan

Yes, that would be wonderful. Perhaps someone with a ZDoom Forums account can do that?

[HorrorMovieRei]

That's a shame. I didn't realise those where made using the base GCS sprites(tbh I'm not very familiar with the engine).

MrFlibble said:

Yes, that would be wonderful. Perhaps someone with a ZDoom Forums account can do that?

I can do that. I'm gonna drop him a message asking about it.

[MrFlibble]

Thanks!

[HorrorMovieRei]

Okay, MarlboroMike2100 has replied, and he said it's okay to use his stuff so long as we give him credit.

[raymoohawk]

cant wait to see that marlboro has really cool work! :)

[jute]

Good news! If you haven't already, make sure he understands that the license allows commercial use - hopefully that won't be a problem for him. His sprites are great.

[Jewellds]

I'm going to second Jute here. We need to know that MarlboroMike understands the open nature of the project. It's that "as long as we give credit" thing that sticks with me.
Of course this project can (and should) give credit for Marlboro's work, but due to the nature of the BSD license others can reuse the work submitted here and we can't guarantee that individual credit is given, only this project must be credited.

Also, do we know what exactly Marlboro has agreed the use of - is it every sprite he has submitted to the Zdoom forums or just certain ones? If so, which ones?

[HorrorMovieRei]

I spoke with him again. He has read the license, and he says he's okay with it, and confirmed we can use his stuff.

[MrFlibble]

This is great news, thank you so much!

[jute]

Great! This Kickstarted public domain (CC0) firearm sound library might prove useful: http://opengameart.org/content/the-free-firearm-sound-library

[fraggle]

jute said:

Great! This Kickstarted public domain (CC0) firearm sound library might prove useful: http://opengameart.org/content/the-free-firearm-sound-library

Oh, cool. This is public domain too. We should look at potentially incorporating some of this into Freedoom.

EDIT: I had a listen to the sound effects and although it's great that this resource exists, they... kinda suck. I don't know where they recorded them but every single one of the sounds has nasty echoes - it sounds like they recorded them outdoors, in a valley or near a cliff that reflected the sound. It kind of ruins the sounds since for a game you want a clean gunshot without echoes - it's a real shame since they clearly went to a lot of trouble to record all these different weapons.

[jute]

That's a shame. I've never actually heard the sounds, but given the funding and effort involved I expected something more useful.

[fraggle]

Maybe it's not really as big an issue as it seemed but they sounded unusable. There was also very variation between the different sounds.

It's also quite disappointing that the website is down and the whole thing is currently hosted as a MediaFire download link. Doesn't give a very good impression.

[Jewellds]

The reverb probably makes these unsuitable for player weapons fire, where the player would want and expect something punchier and more satisfying.

However, I think these could be very useful for enemy fire. Wolfenstein's guards used a similarly distant, reverb-y sound when firing and it makes sense in that context.

[Maz Hades]

I think it would be much better to create new resources for this project, rather than just using existing free assets from other games (excluding freedoom attic stuff, that's ok)
If some sort of bare-bones story is decided on, it'd make it easier to choose resources, as that way there'd be a basic guideline of what will fit and what won't.
For instance, if the story involved a zombie girl who'd regained conciousness and was fighting an anti-zombie squad, MalboroughMike's terminator sprites (if edited slightly) would make perfect blue guards, and the submachine gun could then be replaced with a gun arm dropped by the robot.

[Superluigieth1]

I can help out with this, I can help make the .pk3.

[MrFlibble]

I thought a pk3 is just a zip file with a changed extension?

[jute]

I think using Freedoom attic resources as a foundation is both practical and kind of apposite: the attic resources predate a Freedoom 1.0 just like Wolf3D predates Doom.

[MrFlibble]

Maz Hades said:

If some sort of bare-bones story is decided on, it'd make it easier to choose resources, as that way there'd be a basic guideline of what will fit and what won't.
For instance, if the story involved a zombie girl who'd regained conciousness and was fighting an anti-zombie squad, MalboroughMike's terminator sprites (if edited slightly) would make perfect blue guards, and the submachine gun could then be replaced with a gun arm dropped by the robot.

I don't know what the others will say, but I think your zombie girl concept has enough originality to warrant a game of its own which is not just a libre Wolfenstein 3-D clone. After all, there's no reason why this game could not share some resources with Freedoom and the hypothetical Wolf3D clone, or base its own art on existing resources from these projects. (On a side note, the zombie girl story could probably make good use of advanced effects not available with the Wolfenstein 3-D engine.)

At any rate, it seems that at this stage of development using attic'd Freedoom assets at least as placeholders would be both logical and practical.

BTW, I'm concerned that updates to the attic might have stopped in early December. Would be nice if someone in charge checked if everything is OK there.

[Jewellds]

MrFlibble said:

...your zombie girl concept has enough originality to warrant a game of its own which is not just a libre Wolfenstein 3-D clone.

That's the thing. This shouldn't just be a "libre Wolfenstein 3-D clone." Freedoom has got enough stigma for being an off-brand Doom knock-off over the years, and while we've been making good steps towards fixing that, there's no reason this project should have to.

What's already certain is that we're using ECWolf, which is a Zdoom-like engine with lots of modding options. We're also not lumbered with any need to support older mods.

I think we should use all the options ECwolf gives us. We can have an entirely new arsenal of weapons, new enemy behaviour, floor/ceiling flats etc. and it's not too hard to pull off. The Zombie concept gives us a great opportunity to not just make a "Free Wolfenstein", but an entirely new game on the Wolf engine.

[MrFlibble]

I'm sorry for the unfortunate historical implications in the phrase "libre Wolfenstein 3-D clone" that I used, but I had the impression that the project as proposed by jute in the first post of this thread was to provide FOSS content for the Wolf3D engine while essentially keeping game mechanics etc. unchanged (although ECWolf certainly does allow for a greater scope of flexibility). Whereas what Maz Hades suggested seems to have more original features (again, this is my interpretation, I might very well be wrong!):

Maz Hades said:

I'm not sure what kind of story they're going for with freewolf, but I think playing as a zombie girl fighting humans would be awesome :D You could steal SWAT weapons from guards, and eat limbs to regain health.

When I'm saying that this could be an entirely original game, I mean that it's unclear to me why the zombie girl story should be in any way tied to the Wolf3D engine, and not use the Doom engine or the Build engine for example. Both options seem to give more design opportunities that would fit the theme, whereas (again, this is my subjective impression) the nostalgic factor is one of the driving motives behind the Wolf3D project. At least, this is how I understand this - sorry if I'm wrong!

[Edit] Personally I imagine the possible ECWolf game as something along the lines of Operation Serpent.