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Ashstrodamus

Quick questions

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Quick questions....didn't know where else to post it. What's the difference between say complevel 2 and complevel 9? Also are times allowed that don't beat an older source port but are the highest for the most updated source port? I noticed both were listed in the DSPA for complevel and also many times for certain wads had different source port max times listed.

Yes, I know that sounded confusing.

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Ashstrodamus said:

What's the difference between say complevel 2 and complevel 9?

Answers here

Also are times allowed that don't beat an older source port but are the highest for the most updated source port?

I don't understand the question, but almost everything is "allowed".

I noticed both were listed in the DSPA for complevel and also many times for certain wads had different source port max times listed.

Most of us agree that:
ZDoom demos are incomparable to any other demos.
Boom (-cl 9) may or may not be comparable to vanilla (-cl 2), depending on context.
Vanilla and Prboom+ with kills HUD and timer are comparable, unless it's Max Movie or -respawn, where Prboom+ gives enormous advantage.

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vdgg said:

unless it's Max Movie or -respawn, where Prboom+ gives enormous advantage.

They're still comparable, the HUD only reduces the amount of resets (for Max movies at least) that you do when attempting a run. It's not like the final product is inherently better than the abilities of a run without the HUD. Although for -respawn, the same applies (in my opinion), but the differences are more run-affecting (like camping by the exit waiting for the kill% to reach max, etc). Either way a "truly optimized" time with or without the HUD would look essentially the same for either, just getting there takes longer.

On an unrelated point, cl9 ruins the way weapon switching works and forces you to reload a super shotgun when you have no ammo left, and thus it is garbage and I hate it.

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Cyberdemon531 said:

...only reduces the amount of resets... just getting there takes longer...

I don't understand wording like this (j4rio used something similar in the past as well). Time is like the most valuable asset in the world! So without the HUD I can replicate your 2 hour effort in 20 hours? Yeah, totally the same thing...

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I can also replicate the 2 hours effort without the hud in 2 hours, but using a few segments... so yes it is comparable to cheats

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Memfis said:

I don't understand wording like this (j4rio used something similar in the past as well). Time is like the most valuable asset in the world! So without the HUD I can replicate your 2 hour effort in 20 hours? Yeah, totally the same thing...


Well, you've got, like, 70 years on average of available recording time. If you feel like crapshooting some slaughtermaps with thousands of randomly wandering mobs when going for the exit, be my guest. I consider HUD a compromise, you're free to consider it a cheat.

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I know I was being malicious with the phrase "most of us agree", but the alternative was to write, "Tatsurd, me... and I forgot who else" :-P Now we can see who :)

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Ancalagon said:

I can also replicate the 2 hours effort without the hud in 2 hours, but using a few segments... so yes it is comparable to cheats


Yes, if you use the same reasoning as Cyberdemon531, you should allow segments too.

Though I don't think the HUD is that big of a deal in short and trivial maps. In some maps and in episode/30uv runs though, the advantage is so big that they are obviously not comparable. Just think about any map with pain elemental that spammed lost souls, the lost souls make the typical roaming sounds and you just wonder 'oh shit, did I miss a monster?'. This is especially problematic when the pain elemental dies near a wall and spawns an alert lost soul inside the walls, making some random noises, and you just think there's a monster behind a corner, unless you carefully listen the sound where it is coming from. With the HUD you can just check the kill counter 'meh, I got all the kills', so that aspect of the gameplay is completely removed.

There are also many 'checkpoints' with the HUD in UV-max as you have to have certain number of kills before entering certain areas/doors which allows you to take huge risks in the early part of the level/run and never worry about missing a monster. Without the HUD, the player would continue with the failed attempt unless he heard the missing monster while the HUD player would always know if it was fucked up already.

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That's implying that you check for monsters, you can play just as risky without the HUD and still succeed. The HUD tells me, "Oh shit, I missed a guy, let me go back and look for him" which makes me lose time. Keep in mind, I said "truly optimized" demos with and without the HUD will look the same, obviously older players did max movie runs and ran around the map multiple times to check for monsters, that cannot be considered a truly optimized run, it's super safe. If you risk it and play as well as you can throughout the whole run, or parts of your run, then if you missed a monster, you start over, regardless of seeing the HUD or not. The HUD lets you produce more true max movies (i.e. getting 100%, but you backtrack on, like, two maps for a missed monster) compared to a non-HUD run that would just reset there and start over.
Obviously there's not an easily provable case here, since, as far as I know, nobody has attempted to perform a very good max movie without the HUD to compare with ones that use it, but claiming that the HUD is equivalent to using segments is quite hyperbolic, at least I hope it is. Segmenting is an extremely major gameplay change, whereas HUD is purely information assistance, that has little impact on gameplay itself. Believe it or not, you can still make mistakes with the HUD, and your runs don't end up being perfect because you used it. Of course, I'm not trying to say that the HUD yields no advantage, that's ludicrous, but to say that the final products aren't comparable is quite an unfair assertion, in my opinion. Obviously a run that didn't use the HUD and still being a legitimate max movie is impressive, but I don't really see how it is as impressive as it could be if you just looked around each map for several laps looking for things before exiting.
However, I would prefer runs overall, where you look for a monster only on two maps because you have a HUD, rather than runs where you aimlessly wander around every gigantic level searching for monsters that aren't there.

On a somewhat related note, how do you guys feel about the slightly extra screen space acquired when using the advanced HUD that makes shooting high-up enemies slightly easier because you can see them more efficiently?

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Cyberdemon531 said:

Keep in mind, I said "truly optimized" demos with and without the HUD will look the same

I can agree with that, sadly there's none of such demos, in my opinion ;-(

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Looper said:

Just think about any map with pain elemental that spammed lost souls, the lost souls make the typical roaming sounds and you just wonder 'oh shit, did I miss a monster?'.

Playing with sound is cheating.

Looper said:

There are also many 'checkpoints' with the HUD in UV-max as you have to have certain number of kills before entering certain areas/doors which allows you to take huge risks in the early part of the level/run and never worry about missing a monster. Without the HUD, the player would continue with the failed attempt unless he heard the missing monster while the HUD player would always know if it was fucked up already.

Never happened to me in av26.

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TimeOfDeath said:

Never happened to me in av26.

Do you see any monster that has possibility to roam in this map? Excluding cacos and pain elementals that get instantly killed the moment they are alerted, so they won't have a chance to roam. I'm not even sure what you meant.

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I have absolutely no idea what you guys are talking about. All I know is I have the latest version of Prboom and use the standard Doom2 HUB. I'm assuming you guys are talking about a different HUB that lists types of each monster? Also, some people max in segments?

Closing in on my first UV Max record. Just gotta trim six more seconds.

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How could we turn this quick question into this..

vdgg's first post tells all you need to know about cl2 and cl9, you just need to make sure you are using the correct complevel according to the wad.

Segments are used in tool assisted runs only

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Ancalagon said:

How could we turn this quick question into this..

vdgg's first post tells all you need to know about cl2 and cl9, you just need to make sure you are using the correct complevel according to the wad.

Segments are used in tool assisted runs only

Thanks.

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Looper said:

There are also many 'checkpoints' with the HUD in UV-max as you have to have certain number of kills before entering certain areas/doors which allows you to take huge risks in the early part of the level/run and never worry about missing a monster.


While a possibility in theory, in practise there is very limited use for that. The map would have to be completely linear, so the number of dead mobs is always constant. The thing with that is, linear maps rarely have wandering stragglers. A single case of infighting possibility that you skip and come back to later makes this tactic more trouble than it's worth.

The real major benefit for me is that if I've left something behind, I can learn where I forgot something before pressing exit and make sure I don't forget those particular guys in the next attempt.

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I've been doing some Max runs. I use my flat screen tv to play Doom wads and record demos and the tv goes into searching signal mode when I launch a .bat file. Most of the time I have to basically start blind for about 1/2 seconds. It records the same way. Sometimes it gets quick enough to launch from the the start, but was just wondering if it's okay to submit demos with maybe a one second blackout?

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Cyberdemon531 said:

...?

That's absolutely bizarre. I'd recommend playing in windowed mode, if you're not.

It's the tv man. Not my doings. I can't imagine going back to the monitor. I use the tv for everything.

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If you're running a pWAD(patch WAD) that is Vanilla Compatible(Original Executables) then you should be attempting to use:

Chocolate-DOOM
Chocolate-Doom is the most compatible Source Port to date with Vanilla DOOM (It's the exact same as Vanilla DOOM in terms of computer coding, but ported to modern Hardware.

CNDoom
CNDoom is essentially Chocolate-DOOM, but as it states, if you were to read...It is a modern version of Competitive DOOM.

Eternity Engine
Eternity Engine has the best blend of Zdoom-esque features, maintains full compatibility with demoplay back with the most recent version and a few past versions (if I'm not mistaken), and can be utilized for Eternity Engine Exclusive demos.

or learn how to run the original .exe files.

There are other Vanilla-Compatible sourceports, but I'm focusing on my Top 3 Favorite Source Ports (Excluding Prboom-Plus as it's quite obvious I use that the most when recording .lmps demos)

-*Mindless manic dribble deleted*-

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What is "world record" is also an arbitrary concept in the current day and age, just like the searching for "record" in DSDA table. DOSBox is also a port, it doesn't emulate doom2 properly and makes recording a nuisance, therefore I consider it a different port than original.

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j4rio said:

What is "world record" is also an arbitrary concept in the current day and age, just like the searching for "record" in DSDA table. DOSBox is also a port, it doesn't emulate doom2 properly and makes recording a nuisance, therefore I consider it a different port than original.

You're a good one to talk "Mr. Beat Everybody's Time", lol.

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@ExclusiveAlias [CBD], A couple of days ago you sent a message asking if CNDoom is the official port now (which it is not), it's nice to see you suddenly became an expert on this stuff though, lol.

I also said prboom+ is fine if it works best for you.

As for advanced HUD, it's obvious it gives a huge advantage for max movies etc. However doing a large slaugther map or max movie without it seems like a very annoying experience, so I'd say it's better we have people make demos with HUD than not make any demos at all :)

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ExclusiveAlias [CBD] said:

...

Apologize to the people you cheated by removing those videos, or renaming them and editing their descriptions.


Absolutely bizarre tone in this post.

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I really hope that's a joke. EDIT: Also, you forgot TNT Evilution, and what about Memento Mori? :)

Either way, Ashstrodamus, I'd recommend trying windowed mode if you aren't, and maybe disabling windows aero during recording sessions to use less resources at stuff. I don't see how the TV would be any different than a monitor. I used to use a TV for my screen, and never had that kind of issue, and I always used windowed mode for recording.

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Cyberdemon531 said:

I really hope that's a joke. EDIT: Also, you forgot TNT Evilution, and what about Memento Mori? :)

Either way, Ashstrodamus, I'd recommend trying windowed mode if you aren't, and maybe disabling windows aero during recording sessions to use less resources at stuff. I don't see how the TV would be any different than a monitor. I used to use a TV for my screen, and never had that kind of issue, and I always used windowed mode for recording.

When a demo starts, the screen goes black for a second when loading. When my tv screen goes black it automatically goes into searching signal mode which is the problem. It's not the cpu, it's the RCA flat screen. Likewise on the satellite, when I change channels, I have to wait a second for the show to pop up. The monitor will not do it, but it's a big hassle to keep swapping the cable from monitor to tv. Sometimes it does start right up, so I might have to start the demo say 10 times to get it from the exact start. I guess the tv is getting old, it used to not do this shit, but I can't afford another one.

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Cyberdemon531 said:

But are you playing in fullscreen? Sometimes, when playing in fullscreen, a monitor/tv will have to do that. Like I said, try windowed mode.

I'll try it, but god I hate windowed mode. I bet that would stop it though.

EDIT: Yep windowed mode fixed it right away.

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