Different things that I think would have made D°°M³ better.

[Tracer]

1. The Marine Armor, particularly the helmet, should have been more like the original.

2. The imps should have had spikes protruding from their body.

3. The cacodemons should have been more like the original. Hell, at least a red colored skin with ONE glowing green eye and some horns...that would have been fine.

4. I wish the pinkies were 100% organic. Other than that, I liked the design and behavior. They remind of demonic bulls or bears. I just felt that the bionic legs were stupid.

5. I don't like how imps always have to have a grand entrance. Either they're slowly crawling out of the ceilings, floors, or walls, or they're teleporting in after you hear the whispering. No shock factor for the most part.

6. The Soul Cube...get rid of it. I hate that you can't kill the cyberdemon with conventional weaponry.

7. Hell Knights should have had horns and goat legs. The Hell Knight in the game, however, should have been a new monster.

8. The game should have had barons.

9. The archvile is a bitch in Doom 3. Two shots from the SSG should not take him out. Also, why is he so thick? I want the creepy anorexic bastard that moves around the map like a rabid Lars Ulrich on stage back in 93 when he was allowed to do vocals on Am I Evil.

10. The lost souls are not flying flaming skulls. This is a problem.

11. No arachnotrons?! No mastermind?! WHY?!


Don't let this suggest that I don't enjoy doom³, because I do. I just think it could have been done better. It doesn't feel like doom. It feels like resident evil in space, which isn't a bad thing. It's just not a doom thing. Anybody wish to add to this list?

[Chezza]

A good few points there I agree with.

- I definitely wanted more action and less dark corridors

- All the Doom 2 monsters included and a more Demonic look for Baron (which I believe the new Doom is doing)

- Definitely more Hellish interior and props. The whole Organic walls and Hellish landscape was good but I wanted to see more hanging bodies, impaled victims, strange walls with faces of anguish and intestines etc

- A hell variant for all the monsters. For tech bases the cyborg pinky but while in Hell or just late game the models become traditional pinkys

- Some metal or slow paced industrial electro music playing during various battles

- A unique endboss while the Cyberdemon playing as a super enemy

- Ion Sights and superior weapon sounds (most feels dissatisfying)

- Finally, Gorier deaths against demons as oppose to rag-doll and vanishing

*Bonus* Stronger demons doing a pov finishing move on you like in the Alpha would be cool

[Tracer]

Chezza said:

A good few points there I agree with.

- I definitely wanted more action and less dark corridors

- All the Doom 2 monsters included and a more Demonic look for Baron (which I believe the new Doom is doing)

- Definitely more Hellish interior and props. The whole Organic walls and Hellish landscape was good but I wanted to see more hanging bodies, impaled victims, strange walls with faces of anguish and intestines etc

- A hell variant for all the monsters. For tech bases the cyborg pinky but while in Hell or just late game the models become traditional pinkys

- Some metal or slow paced industrial electro music playing during various battles

- A unique endboss while the Cyberdemon playing as a super enemy

- Ion Sights and superior weapon sounds (most feels dissatisfying)

- Finally, Gorier deaths against demons as oppose to rag-doll and vanishing

*Bonus* Stronger demons doing a pov finishing move on you like in the Alpha would be cool

I wholeheartedly agree with all of that.

And even though a lot of people get tired of it in mods...a new Icon of Sin would have been cool for me.

[printz]

Let's see. Doom 3 is great as it is, but I guess there are some things missing:

- the arachnotron, pain elemental and spectre would have been very interesting in Doom 3.

- an easier level editing experience overall would have given more life to Doom 3 modding. While it's not so bad already (there are quite a few custom maps now), it also caused a LOT of Doom 3 projects to stop and then crumble to death. Works in progress still active keep complaining about the Doom 3 editors.

- another boss monster than the Cyberdemon? Or use it as a regular die-hard monster. It was only scary in Doom 1 first times you encountered it. In Doom 3 I think it was actually nerfed, i.e. his rockets are weaker than yours.

- a better hell level? To me it looked very linear and staged. Now I know, Doom 3 levels can only be linear (otherwise they become annoying to navigate), but I didn't like how everything was presented to me as I was advancing.

Otherwise I'm having difficulty finding things missing from Doom 3. I guess the only bad thing is shortage of mods compared to classic Doom. Even now this subforum is really silent, other than talking about (1) "Doom 3 general" opinions & trivia, and (2) problems making Doom 3 run (which sadly appeared since it was launched and continue on).

[Archi]

Doom 3 level editing is not harder than Quake level editing.

[printz]

Doesn't Doom 3 level editing also involve external 3D modelling tools (if you want to look professional)? Also you have to take care of "patches" (bezier surfaces) not glitching. And high-res reflective "materials" (textures with normal-maps -- bump effects -- and specular maps -- shiny effects). Some of them which cast shadows, others not (for performance needs). Maybe I'm wrong, but lots of the textures exposed to you when you start editing are undefined junk (i.e. texture names without actual textures assigned) in need of clean-up. And in general you have to be quite creative with special effects to have a powerful ambience. Isn't that harder than Quake already?

[Tetzlaff]

TraceOfSpades said:

1. The Marine Armor, particularly the helmet, should have been more like the original.

2. The imps should have had spikes protruding from their body.

3. The cacodemons should have been more like the original. Hell, at least a red colored skin with ONE glowing green eye and some horns...that would have been fine.

4. I wish the pinkies were 100% organic. Other than that, I liked the design and behavior. They remind of demonic bulls or bears. I just felt that the bionic legs were stupid.

5. I don't like how imps always have to have a grand entrance. Either they're slowly crawling out of the ceilings, floors, or walls, or they're teleporting in after you hear the whispering. No shock factor for the most part.

6. The Soul Cube...get rid of it. I hate that you can't kill the cyberdemon with conventional weaponry.

7. Hell Knights should have had horns and goat legs. The Hell Knight in the game, however, should have been a new monster.

8. The game should have had barons.

9. The archvile is a bitch in Doom 3. Two shots from the SSG should not take him out. Also, why is he so thick? I want the creepy anorexic bastard that moves around the map like a rabid Lars Ulrich on stage back in 93 when he was allowed to do vocals on Am I Evil.

10. The lost souls are not flying flaming skulls. This is a problem.

11. No arachnotrons?! No mastermind?! WHY?!

I disagree with most of your points.

1. No way! The original Doom armor looks highly ridiculous with it's clumsy helmet and cut-out belly. The Doom 3 armor has it's unique style and doesn't look so generic like all the other futuristic armors in many other games (especially the helmet).

2. Spikes? OK, why not. But not a big thing.

3. The Doom3 cacodemon design is great. It would be so boring just to recycle the old designs.

4. Kind of agree. It would have been nice to have both fully organic pinkies and cybernetic pinkies.

5. Imps have all kinds of entrances, so I don't really see a problem here.

6. Soul Cube was a nice survival tool and well integrated into the plot.

7. Horns maybe (if they fit the overall design) , but goat legs would have looked tacked on.

8. OK, why not.

9. The Arch-vile looks good IMO, but I really missed the devastating instant fire strike attack he had in Doom.

10. Doom 3's creepy Lost Souls design is superior to the cheesy heavy metal skulls in Doom.

11. Because they don't really feel like demons from hell.


IMO there are really only three things that would have significantly improved Doom 3:

1. Faster player speed and an auto-run option.
2. Better weapon sounds.
3. A more believable antagonist instead of the B-Movie villain Dr Betruger.

[Arctangent]

Tetzlaff said:

10. Doom 3's creepy Lost Souls design is superior to the cheesy heavy metal skulls in Doom.

Let's be real, though. RoE's Forgotten Ones are easily the best Lost Souls, design-wise. Even if they are just flaming skulls with horns.

[Tracer]

While I respect your stance, I have to disagree. I loved the "heavy metal" flaming skulls. Haha

[SavageCorona]

So you think that certain aesthetic choices make the game worse?

[Tracer]

SavageCorona said:

So you think that certain aesthetic choices make the game worse?

Yeah. Imagine Metal Gear Solid if you played as a bowl of chocolate pudding and the Russians were mice. No longer as good.

[scifista42]

My list of things that would have made Doom 3 better:

1. Non-linear level design.
2. More open areas. (as opposed to corridors)
3. More levels taking place in Hell.
4. More fighting against monsters placed on a different height level than the player.
5. Generally more clever usage of 3D space (like Quake 1-3 games have).
6. Shotgun being usable at much longer range.
7. Faster moving player.
8. Faster moving enemies.
9. Efficient teleport ambushes. (it's really boring how it's always possible to kill teleporting monsters before they can do anything, that much slow the mechanic is)
10. Monsters not wasting time by standing and screaming upon seeing the player. (pinkies do it even after that)
11. Sentry bots be less efficient at combating monsters, but also more frequently used as a kind of "powerup" for the player that he take along with him anywhere in the whole level, not just follow a scripted linear path and then deactivate.
12. No Bertruger's silly laughing and monologuing.
13. Final boss fight that makes you fight the boss directly with full parade.

[snapshot]

DOOM 3 would have been better :
* If it's level environments weren't repeatitive .
* If there was more outer areas to explore .
* If the objectives didn't feel repeatitive .
* If the Flashlight was attached to the suit, or weapon .
* If there was some Cool alt-fire ,
* If Doomguy's face wasn't shown .

[Arctangent]

SavageCorona said:

So you think that certain aesthetic choices make the game worse?

I know people from this general crowd like to think that graphics mean absolutely nothing for a game, but in reality aesthetics are incredibly important for games. That doesn't mean graphics have to be top-of-the-line, but how a game looks does impact how you think of and play a game more than you guys like to give credit to.

I mean, I'm pretty sure you can go through a bunch of your past games and divide them between games that look like shit now, games that look dated, but still solid, and games with graphics that still hold up to this day. And I'm sure you can think of games where you just flat-out thought they looked like shit and weren't especially interested in them.

And then there's the undeniable fact that games with poor aesthetics can just be confusing to play, because visual feedback actually compromises most cues and actions.

I mean, I can understand how you guys prioritize gameplay over everything else, but it honestly seems like you completely discredit how much all the other parts of the game actually make a game playable. It's especially mystifying how it can be so prevalent in a community with a strong modding portion - you'd think that at least the general stuff on level design would be somewhat well known.

[printz]

Tetzlaff said:

11. Because they don't really feel like demons from hell.

Sadly the "Sarge" boss doesn't feel like a hell demon either. He looks like he was borrowed from Quake 2. I was quite annoyed when I had to face that monster. Now I have more respect for it, since it's a serious threat, and it's Doom 3: it doesn't have to make sense when it's originated from hell, anything evil imaginable can happen.

[snapshot]

I heard someone saying that Demons look like enemies from Quake because they invaded some UAC facility and learned using some of their creations Just like the "Revenant" , Or it's probably a zombified Marine with rocket launchers on his shoulders .

[Shaviro]

printz said:

- an easier level editing experience overall would have given more life to Doom 3 modding. While it's not so bad already (there are quite a few custom maps now), it also caused a LOT of Doom 3 projects to stop and then crumble to death. Works in progress still active keep complaining about the Doom 3 editors.

As much as I would love a better editor, I don't see it as the main reason behind why most (Doom3) projects collapse. Most people who enter the ambitious mod scene love to dream big, but they are not willing to back it up with hard work. No matter how good the tools get, the process will become work. Your art, assets, code, levels and writing will have to be scrapped as you learn wtf you're doing. You master the editor in months, but mastering the game design process is an ongoing struggle. Managing the team and playing your part in it is another extremely tricky task that eclipses the editor struggles easily.

Most (not all) of the people we have had come and go for the Phobos project have all been dreaming big, but unwilling (or unable) to back it up with hard work and dedication.

So yeah, a better editing environment would be amazing and definitely speed up things, but that's not really where most projects fail.

[Tetzlaff]

I agree to all points of scifista42, although non-linearity and more 3D combat would make about every FPS from the 2000s better and is not something specific to Doom 3.

I disagree to almost all points of DMGUYDZ64 :)

printz said:

Sadly the "Sarge" boss doesn't feel like a hell demon either. He looks like he was borrowed from Quake 2. I was quite annoyed when I had to face that monster. Now I have more respect for it, since it's a serious threat, and it's Doom 3: it doesn't have to make sense when it's originated from hell, anything evil imaginable can happen.

Yeah, the Sarge boss could also pass off as a Strogg. But it made sense in the story and was part of the whole hubris through technology - Hell corrupts human technology theme.

[scifista42]

Shaviro said:

As much as I would love a better editor, I don't see it as the main reason behind why most (Doom3) projects collapse. Most people who enter the ambitious mod scene love to dream big, but they are not willing to back it up with hard work. No matter how good the tools get, the process will become work.

But you know - the better tools, the less-hard work - and the less-hard work, the more people willing/capable to do it and finish it to the end. :)

[Shaviro]

scifista42 said:

But you know - the better tools, the less-hard work - and the less-hard work, the more people willing/capable to do it and finish it to the end. :)

Like I wrote, it would speed things up and there would be less "manual" labour, but when we're dealing with ambitious projects, the tools really aren't the bottleneck. What you want to create, how it fits together with the vision for the mod/game, how you will work alongside your team members, finding viable compromises (not just members between, but also between vision and tech), making things actually work out are just much bigger issues :)

The biggest killer of projects is the wrong mindset. No editor in the world can combat that. If you have a more efficient editor you'll just have more crap to throw out once you actually learn what's going on. There's so much more to creating an ambitious project than assembling level structures. That really is the least of your worries.

Not that I'm against a better editor. I'm a huge proponent for better tools and I'm even one of those fools who would like more geometrical freedom in the editors (the good old brushes vs. models debate). Better tools would be great, but D3Radiant lacks expert features. The simplistic approach it has towards level structures is actually pretty newbie friendly.

[VGamingJunkie]

I think one major thing that harmed Doom 3 was the obsessive need to make just about everything a corridor. Classic Doom had a variety of different kinds of areas, ranging from big to small but Doom 3 stuck to pretty tight spaces. I know it was so computers could handle its "impressive" graphical engine but is it really worth that kind of sacrifice in gameplay potential? Maybe they would have been better off downgrading the graphics a bit to get better environments, the fact that Doom is remembered far better than Doom 3 speaks for that.

[Jayextee]

Doom 3 was okay. I like the BFG edition and its infinite shotgun ammo, but I feel more things could've been done to improve the overall experience:

- Another shotgun, possibly with 3 or even 7 barrels. Uses BFG ammo.
- Invisible pinkie demon. Makes fart sounds to alert player to questionable dietary choices.
- At least 1,000x more roles for Steve Blum to voice act; never sounding any different than stock Steve Blum.
- Cyberdemon, instead of shooting rockets, should shoot more Cyberdemons.
- Lighting should've been set to 255 in all sectors, alternating every footstep to 0 and back.
- Super Turbo Turkey Puncher should've had more levels, unlockable characters, epic storyline featuring Steve Blum. Uses BFG ammo.
- Archvile needed a major in one of the social sciences.
- Doomguy should've been able to take a bath, the filthy fucker.
- DEHACKED support. Uses BFG ammo.
- &Knuckles.

Had they made these changes, it would've been so good they wouldn't need to make another Doom ever again.

[Clonehunter]

I think the soul cube should have been available earlier in the game, as it's very useful after a tough fire fight and you need some health and an insta-kill. However, with an earlier entrance, maybe it would need to have the health rate changed or upgraded over time, so as to not give you a killer edge. Like early on you get 25% of a monster's health back, then maybe 35%, or something, and keep advancing as you fight bigger and bigger monsters.

Arachnotrons and bigger, more open spaces to accommodate said monsters would be neat too. The Mancubus encounter was a neat, big area to fight in, but then there was nothing like it again from what I can recall.

[Jaxxoon R]

A boss that is an angry monster truck.

[Tracer]

Jayextee said:

Doom 3 was okay. I like the BFG edition and its infinite shotgun ammo, but I feel more things could've been done to improve the overall experience:

- Another shotgun, possibly with 3 or even 7 barrels. Uses BFG ammo.
- Invisible pinkie demon. Makes fart sounds to alert player to questionable dietary choices.
- At least 1,000x more roles for Steve Blum to voice act; never sounding any different than stock Steve Blum.
- Cyberdemon, instead of shooting rockets, should shoot more Cyberdemons.
- Lighting should've been set to 255 in all sectors, alternating every footstep to 0 and back.
- Super Turbo Turkey Puncher should've had more levels, unlockable characters, epic storyline featuring Steve Blum. Uses BFG ammo.
- Archvile needed a major in one of the social sciences.
- Doomguy should've been able to take a bath, the filthy fucker.
- DEHACKED support. Uses BFG ammo.
- &Knuckles.

Had they made these changes, it would've been so good they wouldn't need to make another Doom ever again.

Agreed.

[Jaxxoon R]

The only part I agree with is &Knuckles.

Not to be confused with Knuckles.

[Koko Ricky]

My list has already been covered in part by previous posts, but:

• A more overtly demonic/visceral aesthetic. There's not nearly enough gothic/occult imagery and the transition to Hell is almost instantaneous, not to mention it takes up only about 10% of gameplay, if even that.
• All the weapons kinda needed an overhaul. Most of them don't really look or feel that impressive and their effectiveness is sometimes quite poor (especially the shotgun and the grenades).
• Overhaul on the sound design, too. Not all of it, but definitely the theme song, the manner in which sound is propagated and some of the enemy/weapon sounds are god awful.
• Bigger, brighter, more open spaces. Some nice contrast between dark and light areas rather than making most of the game either pitch black or very dark.
• More non-linearity and general exploration. More time spent perfecting the physically driven puzzles an perhaps a few more puzzles in that direction, as long as they're fun.
• Definitely the Super Turkey Puncher game should have had a bit more depth and maybe even one or two other rudimentary games would have been neat.
• Enemies should have definitely looked more evil and terrifying, and had more variety in their appearance and color schemes. Not that they had to look like carbon copies of the originals, but there was too much grey and too many anatomical similarities. Some of them, like the spiders and cacodemons, looked pretty crummy.
• A better story. Doom 3's story tried to be serious, but much of it was super corny, especially the writing and the black-and-white portrayal of good versus bad.

[VGamingJunkie]

Is it just me or does the Steam version suffer from performance issues? I have an AMD HD 5670 512MB GPU, a Duocore 3.17 GHz Intel Processor, and 4 GB of RAM. Won't win any awards but it should be able to easily handle Doom 3 at its highest settings in its sleep. Sometimes, it works great but, others, it just starts lagging to hell. At one point, updating the CPU driver fixed it but then it started chugging out again.

[Zemini]

I hated a lot of the same things. Here is the list of the top ones that bothered me the most.

1. I hated the Cacodemon design as well. Didn't look anything like the original.
2. The gaurdian and cyber boss gimmicks were stupid IMO. At least in the lost mission the Guardian boss fight is a lot better.
3. Level Editing/mod scene was very VERY small compared to Classic. I hope that SnapMap helps to revive this.
4. No Barons/Spider demons. At least we got the Hell Hunters in RoE.
5. Shotgun felt worthless.

Things I did like:

1. Doom 3 specific monsters were unique and fun to kill. Bruiser, Vulgur, Guardian, and Maledict come to mind. I hope we see them return in Doom 4.
2. ROE expansion was better than the original campaign. Lost Levels was fun and short.
3. The game was spooky when played the first time through.
4. Hellslime! You know that red stuff and grew around the levels. Hope to see this return as well.

[SavageCorona]

TraceOfSpades said:

Yeah. Imagine Metal Gear Solid if you played as a bowl of chocolate pudding and the Russians were mice. No longer as good.

Tbh it's not that good the way it is