Will D3's final boss SUCK?

[Manik999]

Picture this: you've just spent the last ten hours trudging through dark corridors, dodging balls of fire, climbing out of devilish traps, and making pencils out of zombies... basically, having a ball getting the piss scared out of you.

Now you find yourself up against the #1 badass. You pile layers of pellets into his fleshy torso only to find... you can't beat him. Why not? Because you spent the last of your uranium slugs plowing through the last wave of demons.

OR... you just can't get close enough to that big red switch that has that big sign next to it that says "PRESS HERE TO DESTROY HELL".

I desperately hope that the D3 boss doesn't fall prey to the same shortcoming we've seen way too often in the FPS's history. Take Q1 E1M7 for example: so... I can't kill him. But there's that big switch. "Aww, crap! That's the third time he sent a lightning bolt through my head... I knew I should've put a lamp there instead. Blaarg! I am dead."

Or maybe the extra-powerful boss who takes the business end of an atomic device-- only to get more pissed off.

I'm not sure what the ideal boss would be like... maybe one that has multiple incarnations, all of which take different strategies to defeat. Or maybe you could use that switch, except that the boss has to be weakened in order for it to work. Say you're in an orbiting space station, and you meet the final boss. You have to use all your firepower to stun him for a while, at which point you open up a hatch and try to suck him out into the void of space.

[/rant]

Thoughts?

[læmænt]

Yes, i think it will suck.

[Linguica]

Have there ever been any FPS endbosses with multiple incarnations? The dude in Heretic had two forms if I am not mistaken, but I can't think of any others. Didn't Hitler lose his armor? Whatever. That's an RPG staple that is sadly underutilized in the FPS genre.

[Lüt]

Linguica said:

Have there ever been any FPS endbosses with multiple incarnations?

Millennium's has 3... I wanted more but it would've been impossible to beat.

Also, Quake2's boss had 2 forms, they were each really pathetic though.

[Manik999]

Can't say I know, Linguica, but I'd be surprised if it were true. FPS's have had the least variety(even rating below fighting games) when it comes to final boss strategy. It's been limited either to the extra-tough guy, or the guy you can't touch who sits conveniently in the middle of an atomic reactor.

Maybe we will get our extra-tough guy, but only for the sake of killing him. Maybe the real ending will be in the form of an extra-tough SITUATION that still gets the adrenaline pumping and still gives you the same satisfaction from finding your way out of it.

[Liam]

MASTER GIYGAS

[Livo]

The final boss had better not just require a lot of ammo and merely strafing to one side to avoid the attacks.

[AndrewB]

The Doom 3 endboss could be a remake of the E1M8 dark death room, only a million times bigger and with disco globes and strobe lights.

Or it could be a Cyberdemon that's 1/100th the normal size, that runs four times as fast and walks through walls, in a pitch black room!

How about an invincible Arch-Vile that resurrects YOU after you die, resulting in an final showdown that never ends?

I wouldn't mind seeing a regular Spider Mastermind in a very long, thin hallway that shoots BFG out of its chaingun instead of bullets. Talk about a challenge!

[Lord FlatHead]

Manik999 said:

Maybe we will get our extra-tough guy, but only for the sake of killing him. Maybe the real ending will be in the form of an extra-tough SITUATION that still gets the adrenaline pumping and still gives you the same satisfaction from finding your way out of it.

Yeah, I hope so. I still think there should be some kind of boss, but that shouldn't be the only challenge at the end of the game. How about a whole big level full of tough monsters, and then a big boss at the end to finish things up.

[Ultimate Demon]

Linguica said:

Have there ever been any FPS endbosses with multiple incarnations? The dude in Heretic had two forms if I am not mistaken, but I can't think of any others. Didn't Hitler lose his armor? Whatever. That's an RPG staple that is sadly underutilized in the FPS genre.

Well That dude in Heretic is called D'Sparil ;) He had only one form. He sat on his Chaos Serpant ( that Dragon ) and when it died he reappeared there his dragon died. ^^ do you like Heretic Linguica?

[Arioch]

The Serious Sam final boss, while refreshingly oversized, is one prime example of a bad boss. You can't hurt it with all the weapons you've painstakingly collected (as they teleported in as rewards for increasingly inane feats of massacre), nothing you do can harm it ... except jump through some hoops suspended in the air. WTF.

The Half-Life end-boss was a pretty cool fight sequence, except the combination of shoddy level design and poor clipping code meant you could get your ass stuck in the various side-rooms and die there with your hp and armor draining 1 point at a time. Plus he just didn't make much sense. I mean, come on, you slug it through an army of special ops, an invading horde of alien slaves ... come to the end, and you fight a big baby in the air? Erm.

Jedi Knight II. Desann is appropriately difficult. It's done particularly well because he just has a better command of the force powers, plus a better AI than the rest of the cannon fodder dark jedi reborns.

Deus Ex. There is no end boss, just 3 Universal Constructors that keep spewing out some of the harshest monsters in the game. Plus they're not the focus of the final mission anyway.

Uh, I dunno where this is going.

[dsm]

Arioch said:

The Half-Life end-boss was a pretty cool fight sequence, except the combination of shoddy level design and poor clipping code meant you could get your ass stuck in the various side-rooms and die there with your hp and armor draining 1 point at a time. Plus he just didn't make much sense. I mean, come on, you slug it through an army of special ops, an invading horde of alien slaves ... come to the end, and you fight a big baby in the air? Erm.

Half life's endboss is probably the most boring boss EVER.
1. Shoot the crystals.
2. proceed to wait until he's used up all the energy that floats around his head (and occasionally fire something at its head for the heck of it).
3. Beat the crap out of him by firing just about everything you got at his head.

I want Doom 3's boss to be a basic "shoot-at-him-until-he-dies" boss, but he should hold the power to wipe you out easily if you're not careful (the Cybie was perfect for its time - take two hits and you're dead).

The only reason why the Makron (in Quake 2) sucked, was because that BFG of his didn't do an awful lot of damage - if that thing was as powerful as the BFG the other players can incinerate you with in dm, the Makron would likely be a different story.

Also: Make the boss move faster than your typical "calmly walking" boss - I want it to be at your heels constantly.

[Lord FlatHead]

Granted, Nihilanth was a pretty stupid boss. But Half-Life's ending was great IMO. "Gordon Freeman, in the flesh..."

[dsm]

Lord FlatHead said:

Granted, Nihilanth was a pretty stupid boss. But Half-Life's ending was great IMO. "Gordon Freeman, in the flesh..."

If HL's ending is great, RtCW's final boss is great too - in other words: I disagree.

[GS-1719]

dsm said:

If HL's ending is great, RtCW's final boss is great too - in other words: I disagree.

I thought Half-Life had a pretty good ending, and RTCW's was rubbish. I'd like to see a large (though not on Serious Sam scale) boss which you'd have to die to defeat it.

[Alientank]

You won't ever get a final boss that's going to be great because once you beat it you just beat the game and it's over. It's a mental thing in your head that's all. I've played some games that had some crappy bosses I thought but if you just look back you realize they weren't all that bad. Most people want a lightshow and cool effects at the end, I just want a monster that's a beotch to kill and when he does, leaves an opening for a sequel

[Lord FlatHead]

dsm said:

If HL's ending is great, RtCW's final boss is great too - in other words: I disagree.

I don't see how HL's ending and RTCW's ending are alike. Half-Life's ending was cool because unexpectedly, the G-Man appeared right in front of you and sort of explained the whole game. In RTCW you just had Himmler mumbling a few words, and then another stupid OSA office scene.

[IMJack]

The best final boss would be a deviously intelligent monster, not necessarily HUGE but big enough to discourage up-close-and-personal fighting. The boss needs enough attakcs and special abilites to make your life interesting, and has to be smart enough to use them properly. It also has to be smart enough to take cover and let the lesser beasties have you at times. Then when you finally kill him, you've got a very short time to complete the final secret objective that spells the diference between the "bad" ending and the "good" ending. This while the final, non-aggresive bad guy floats just out of your reach and taunts your puny efforts.

[Shaviro]

There shouldn't be a final boss, but a final mission, like getting to a ship and getting the hell out of there. The whole MEGA LARGE MONSTER BOSS is getting old.

[Goat]

What, Maonth, like Red Faction's semi-lame last level? Granted, there was a last boss, it was more like a normal-enemy-named-something-different. I hated the last level of Red Faction, I think Doom should have a big-ass last boss.

[Sharessa]

I think the end should be like Civilization, where you go to Alpha Centauri for no reason.

[Naked Snake]

I think the last boss should be HUGE with tons of weaponry...I think the last stage should be a huge stadium filled with monsters, you have to win then go through a teleporter with all the ammo and health you would ever need then you face the last boss who can kill you like you're a baby...if you get to close he steps on you, he can shoot you with his 4 rocket launchers, 6 grenade launchers, 5 chainguns, 10 flamethrowers and 9 monster spawners!!!! No, not really...really he should be large with like dual chainguns and a rocket/grenade launcher on his shoulder and be really tall and tough as fuck. The ending would be a great fanfare of the Marine in a parade, with beers and women flashing their titties at him as he drives by in a car, with the hood ornament being the last bosses head and um...then it fades and shows the marines face, huge smile...then pans out to show the 5 sexy ladies lying on his bed.

[gatewatcher]

bigbadgangsta said:

I think the last boss should be HUGE with tons of weaponry...I think the last stage should be a huge stadium filled with monsters, you have to win then go through a teleporter with all the ammo and health you would ever need then you face the last boss who can kill you like you're a baby...if you get to close he steps on you, he can shoot you with his 4 rocket launchers, 6 grenade launchers, 5 chainguns, 10 flamethrowers and 9 monster spawners!!!! No, not really...really he should be large with like dual chainguns and a rocket/grenade launcher on his shoulder and be really tall and tough as fuck. The ending would be a great fanfare of the Marine in a parade, with beers and women flashing their titties at him as he drives by in a car, with the hood ornament being the last bosses head and um...then it fades and shows the marines face, huge smile...then pans out to show the 5 sexy ladies lying on his bed.

[/rant]***

lol, i like the titties part especially :P

[Darkstalker]

I'm not tired at all fighting bad-ass bosses, as long as it don't take much strategy like pulling a switch to kill him Quake-style. They should remake the doom 2 end boss (wall thing) but in real 3d with a body and legs so it can move.

Then it should end Mario2-style and see the marine in a bed, wake-up and say "It was just a dream..." and everybodys happy, yaddi-yaddi-da
The end.

Actually, it would totally suck. But anyway, I would be happy to see Doom 2 end boss in real 3d instead of fighting a wall.

[DooMBoy]

How about.....you find yourself in a dark room, with all your weapons taken away. In the darkness, you see red eyes peering at you from a great distance. That's when you start to hear the sound of SOMETHING slowly getting closer to you....
It would up to you to figure out how to get the fuck out of there, and actually avoid the boss for once...maybe you're running through a labyrinthine space-base with The Thing in close pursuit, you can't see him, but he's getting closer by the sound of it.
Finally you make to a reactor core type room. While the seconds ticking down, and The Thing (tm) getting closer and closer, you have to destroy this particular room, get in an escape pod, and get the hell out of there. You turn and see the station explode and what that Thing was, it'd dead now....the game could end with the Doomguy whizzing through space into the great beyond, possibly back to Earth.

Don't know if this would work, but I would personally like it.

[Linguica]

DooMBoy said:

the game could end with the Doomguy whizzing through space into the great beyond

Quake 2 anybody?

[Livo]

How about the devil himself?

Though, if it was the devil, I doubt that killing or even wounding him is an option :)

Running away and getting into an escape pod is too cliched, so is switch-flipping and the old "mindless blasting until it dies" case.

Therefore, I want the final boss (probably a demon "prince" or ruler) to be:

a) Intelligent. AI has been brought up before, but I want a boss that can do everything that a skilled human player online can do i.e dodge, use sound and sight effectively, using weapons/attacks effectively, luring players and so on.

b) An enemy that is terrifying. The Cyber-Demon in Doom was scary, but for Doom 3, someone else that is much more terrifying. Size and weaponry can contribute to terror, but a great monster design will do most of the work in terms of scaring the player. A massive winged demonic angel (well, done right could be something) is my crappy suggestion, or perhaps a drooling, snarling hybrid human-demon figure.

c) Hopelessness. No, I don't mean "Oh, this guy is taking up a lot of ammo, it's taking ages to kill him!", I mean like "God no! I gotta get out of here!" sentiments. To do this, perhaps the boss could rip open walls and other potential places of protection and cover. It'd be very fast and aggressive, but not stupid- see a). The boss should maybe do things we can't, like climb up onto the ceiling for example and use that ability effectively. Fierce and powerful attacks can also help this feeling as well.

d) A good area to fight in- enclosed spaces can be boring or good, depending on the level design. I'd like to see a mix of wide areas and enclosed spaces to fight the boss. The fight could start outside, but then it breaks into the base, NOT to escape you, but to for example summon up a bunch of demons to help it, or to let a portal open. The spaces should have some cover and protection, but have weapon and item placement in logic areas. The monster should use all the space to its advantage.

[dsm]

Lord FlatHead said:

I don't see how HL's ending and RTCW's ending are alike. Half-Life's ending was cool because unexpectedly, the G-Man appeared right in front of you and sort of explained the whole game. In RTCW you just had Himmler mumbling a few words, and then another stupid OSA office scene.

Hl's ending had no action and seemed so totally over-the-top - I mean wtf? you beat the boss and suddenly you're being teleported to various areas while that freak with an annoying-as-fuck voice is talking to you.
In RtCW, at least you hear that you're given a vacation and that your superiors praise your efforts (making me feel satisfied) and on top of that we are treated to a funky little action sequence showing BJ blasting away at some nazis. And I certainly don't mind these OSA cutscenes - they serve their purpose of telling the story from different points of view.

Granted, they could've made the transition between killing the boss and showing Himmler whining about "Ze American" ruining everything, but the rest of the ending is more interesting than a host of other game endings I've seen.

They should remake the doom 2 end boss (wall thing) but in real 3d with a body and legs so it can move.

Hmm, as long as it has a real attack instead of lamely summoning monsters.

NOT to escape you, but to for example summon up a bunch of demons to help it, or to let a portal open. The spaces should have some cover and protection, but have weapon and item placement in logic areas. The monster should use all the space to its advantage.

No thanks, I don't want another boss that can summon in annoying monsters to draw your attention away from it.

[Zaldron]

RtCW's ending is just lame. Half-Life provides with an excellent cliffhanger, and all that "the-government-is-one-step-ahead-of-you" feeling that always make my spine chill. Plus, the transition between that demented last level and that yuxtaposition of surreal enviroments and dead soldiers, coupled with the calm, I-had-it-planned voice of the G-man inyects some really cool emotional stress into the game.

I hated the Nihilant. Not much because he was a floating fetus, I can live with that, but because his main attack was teleporting you to places with MORE stupid goddamn sucky Xen monsters. It was a real pleasure to expose his brain, throw a detpack, and detonating it from the ground. I was grining like mad.

Where was I going? Oh yeah, Doom III's boss. It makes you wonder if this time it will be the spider mastermind. In fact, I think it will. So, the new engine is a great chance to explore a rather unexploited way of portraying final bosses in FPSs.

If it was up to me, I would design the spider mastermind to be fully able of climbing these insanely large spiderwebs located in a very dark corner of Hell. The Mastermind should almost taunt your attempts at killing it, by tracking you based on the web's vibration and attacking by surprise in short attacks. It should never be fully visible, since a monster kinda looses the shock value when you can exactly tell what does it look like. Instead, picture a creature that you can only see at most 25% of his body for a split second, before it returns to the darkness awaiting for you to make a mistake again.

[dsm]

Zaldron said:

If it was up to me, I would design the spider mastermind to be fully able of climbing these insanely large spiderwebs located in a very dark corner of Hell. The Mastermind should almost taunt your attempts at killing it, by tracking you based on the web's vibration and attacking by surprise in short attacks. It should never be fully visible, since a monster kinda looses the shock value when you can exactly tell what does it look like. Instead, picture a creature that you can only see at most 25% of his body for a split second, before it returns to the darkness awaiting for you to make a mistake again.

I would find that annoying as fuck.
About the RtCW/HL ending thing: I found RtCW's ending entertaining, whereas I felt total indifference at watching HL's ending, but I guess it's just me who's a weird fuck. At any rate, I judge an ending entirely by whether it entertains me or not.

Not that I generally care about game endings (a good game doesn't need a superb ending, though it shouldn't just end like e.g. MoH), I look more at the game as a whole.
But I do have my ideas on how a Doom 3 endgame boss should be imo:

Big, very big (dwarfs Cybie), black demonlord, with cyberdemon-like horns (maybe larger and more twisted), very powerfully built with huge muscles, and evil, glowing eyes (I don't want an eyeless boss), primarily organic, but may have a few, tiny gadgets penetrating its skin a few places (wires etc.), has lots of spikes.
This brute should be relatively fast and should really chase you around (it doesn't need to run, but it's huge size should enable it to take long steps that would allow it to move fast). It should be able to make short leaps and when it does, the ground shakes when it lands (it shouldn't do this excessively). It should have frightening powers and perhaps even be able to manipulate with the surroundings (crack open large cracks in the floor from where fire erupts etc.) and first and foremost: It should be able to kill you really fast with its direct attack(s) if you're not careful.
It'd also be great if it could shapeshift from time to time, turning into a slightly different creature (yet still huge and black) with different abilities.

And it's roars (greeting and death) should be terrifyingly loud (throwing echoes off the walls) and really realize that this thing is one big bad mutha.

Personally, I'd prefer that the boss is just a guardian, preventing you from accomplishing one final task (like "shut down the infested gateway") and that the game wont just end when you kill the boss.