BFG Lamers

[Guest Xenos]

Code of honor... That sounds good. However, respawn frags are an indispensable part of the game. Here is why.
Getting more frags than your opponent has to involve more than encounters at even odds. If both you and your opponent are skilled SSG users, you will not frag him until he gets the gun, and after he does, the odds are even (possibly even in his favor if your health is lower). Even odds lead to even scores if both players have matching technical skills.
Where do you draw the line with the code of honor? Using an SSG against a player with a rocket launcher is not fair either. Shooting a rocket into a narrow hallway when the opponent is in it is evil unfair to him (to quote you, he has no chance whatsoever).

If respawns are placed where you can hit them, it is for a reason. There are several distinct kinds of deathmatch maps, and the game flow is always dictated by the locations of respawns, items, and weapons.
For example, map 1 is a domination map, since one player can control access to the SSG from one area, the chaingun-rocket launcher corridor, while covering 3 out of 4 respawns. Mind you that one respawn is safe, and gets the weapons right away, so the other player has a chance to dislodge the dominating player and take over. It is also no coincidence that both BFGs are in the same room. The games in map 1 are meant to be decided by respawn frags.
There are other map styles, for example, cat-and-mouse, as in Dweller2 map 11. Respawn locations there cannot be controlled at the same time, and the map provides for circular routes and multiple escape paths from anywhere.
It is altogether easy to make a map with respawns in safe places. Beware, it leads to slower games. Bigger maps usually accomplish that quite nicely. I strongly dislike deathmatching in big maps for that very reason. For me, the best part of Doom is its fast-paced action. Snapshot respawn SSG kills are beautiful. It is not easy to kill in one shot. Respawn-fragging a good player is also a task and a half and requires skill.
I believe your "code of honor" to have been put in place by playing much weaker opponents. Letting a player live because you feel generous is condescending and insulting. In my book it goes right next to refraining from using the BFG because of the belief that it either takes no skill or is an unfair weapon. Disliking respawn frags and disliking the BFG are both caused by the same factors.

BTW, I do acknowledge your disclaimer that you only play for fun and winning a game means nothing to you. However, the attitude towards respawn frags that you have expressed has been popular enough for me to have reacted to it with this post.

The real code of honor is respecting your opponent. Fragging him on sight shows an appreciation of his dangerous potential.

[Guest Firewater]

Where did fire trucks come from?

[Guest Firewater]

when CSDoom is quering YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY it performs an illegal operation in modual <unknown>... Dose anybody know what the hell is going on? how i can fix it. Or where i can get a good copy?!

[Guest Xenos]

CsdLauncher has an ini file in the directory, csdl.ini. Delete it and restart the launcher.
The error happens so often that I made a batch file that deletes the ini file every time before starting the launcher.

[Guest Firewater]

Thanks a lot for helpin' me out.

[Megalyth]

heh

[Guest Castellan]

My stupid brother is staying over and he keeps looking up pr0n and messing up my programs. You guys think you've got problems. Anyone willing to take a bfg to my brother will not be called a lamer...

[Risen]

I draw the line at respawning. When someone shows up in front of me, I let them go, and I don't follow them. When I encounter someone randomly at any other time, they're fair game no matter what they've collected to that point. That's the way I expect to be treated as well. (Unless they shoot me first, and then they're just asking for it.)

[Andy Johnsen]

Heh...letting someone go when they respawn infront of you is - like Xenos put it - insulting in a way. If you just play for fun (which should be the only reason why anyone plays), then why are you so hung up in this "honor" stuff? If a player respawn infront of you, of course you don't let him go out of a kind heart...thats just too ridiculous to be discussed :) lol, This is deathmatch god damnit :)

[BahdKo]

Being a fresh respawn is part of Doom2 DM where the heat is really up. You learn what actions increase your chances of survival, and learn to fight like the devil to stay alive. Its part of the game I would hate to be without, and on my CSdoom servers I do NOT turn on the option to interfere with respawns to make people respawn as far away from the opponants as they can. The plasma-hallway and plasma room respawns on Doom2 Map1 are where the hottest and most creative recoveries happen in Map1 games. Respawn frags are part of Doom2 that I would never want to give up.

The only time I spare someone on a respawn is if its a modem game, I am completely totally locking someone out, I feel bad about it under the circumstances, and its a plasma room spawn. Sometimes I let them get the plasma, pretending I didn't notice them down there. Sometimes its because the person is so bad that I'm wondering if the person can actually kill me with the plasma.

and yeah I definately would not appreciate someone allowing me to get a weapon before attacking me. Even when I play the players who beat me the worst, I would not want such a thing.

[BahdKo]

nt

[Waldon]

Personaly I think that you can avoid most of the respawn frags, if you don't respawn immediately after dying. The most common problem of the new players I can see, that they respawn immediately, and they get fragged in a second. This is a bad reflex, try to wipe it out from your mind.

[Guest zokum]

244 people voted and this is what they mean? How come none of the BFG haters comment in here then!

[Risen]

I figured as soon as I mentioned how I played that some people would jump all over me. Oh well.

Xenos: "Even odds lead to even scores if both players have matching technical skills."

I fail to see your point. What's wrong with that?

I don't claim that you should wait until everyone has a weapon before firing on them, you'd have to keep track of everyone to do that. But if they've just respawned in front of you and you have the obvious advantage, just run by like they weren't there. How could it possibly be an insult? It's a service. It makes the game more enjoyable for the other party.

If I can dominate a game without using the BFG when everyone else does, and without the respawn frags, I have much bigger bragging rights than all the rest of you. :)

[BahdKo]

Xenos can speak for himself when he gets around to it, but I couldn't resist responding to some of your post.

I don't think anyone's jumping on you btw, we just have a different perspective and opinion.

When Xenos said "Even odds lead to even scores if both players have matching technical skills.", if he means what I think he did, he's referring to the fact that playing these Doom2 maps takes more than one kind of depth and skill (Xenos by all means correct me if im not on the same track you were). Technical skill is how well you aim, how well you can put rockets where you want them, how well you move, things like that. This would be contrasted with tactical or strategic skill, which is you knowing when not to step near that corner, knowing when to chase like a madman, when to switch weapons and screw around with your opponant's head, things like that.

I can say for me that the catfights at respawn time are an important and intense part of the game, especially on a linear map like Map1. Those are the times when you just *must not* make a tactical mistake, because its your tactics vs. your opponants tactics PLUS his technical skills (you have a shit weapon and he has the one he just killed you with a moment ago). The times when I'm stuck with a handgun are the times when I come up with the most creative outs.

If someone didnt follow up respawns in a game I was winning, and they did it consistantly and I became aware of it, I would consider asking him what was wrong. If I was losing the game, I would take it as a serious insult and might go as far to ask the player to cease doing that. It's an insult to have a better player do that because it is his way of telling you that you are such an easy game that he needs to do that to keep the game interesting. Thats why if I ever do this (virtually never, like i said in another post, once in a blue moon in a modem game if the game is a total lockout), I pretend to have missed the respawn location.

Xenos, ICQ or /msg me on IRC i need to ask you about something, thx.

[Guest Excalibur_Z]

I like to fight people when they're at their best. You can't really test your skills when you're just kicking the guy's ass on respawn half the time. Same thing goes for chat-kills. A player that's typing obviously can't defend himself, so you've got to spare him. It's a lot harder to tell in Doom if someone's typing or just sitting there waiting to blast you, but Quake3 makes it easy -- I let these people go.

On the other hand, all these rules apply strictly to 1v1s. In free-for-alls, it's every man for himself, and I'll be damned if the man in first place ain't me. Respawn kills, chat-kills... screw it all. It's the time to put my skills to the test, not let some ll4m4 who can't learn from his mistakes have a free shot. The objective is to survive in a FFA, meaning I've got to defend myself. Sure, newly-respawned opponents take some shots at you with their pistol while they're scrambling to get a new weapon, but those pistol shots hurt -- 15% health... if I let every opponent get off a couple pistol shots, I wouldn't last nearly as long. Survival is survival.

--

About the BFG: The big green ball isn't the problem, it's the screen-wide effect that does all the damage. The fact that the "splash" can take over 100 health is unsettling, and coupled with the freelook and soundmasking, makes the BFG a pretty sneaky weapon.

Do you know what happened when you missed with a BFG in original Doom? You had to wait until that green ball hit the wall and that your opponent was still in both yours and the BFG's line of sight for it to do any damage. Now, you have people that can simply fire at the ground and kill you instantly. Requires no skill whatsoever... you don't have to lead your enemy like you did in the past. That totally ruins the whole strategy aspect of the BFG. Thank God it's such an ammo hog =P

[Waldon]

"Now, you have people that can simply fire at the ground and kill you instantly"
What are you talking about Excalibur_Z? It is still not possible in csdoom. And if it is in some other ports, don't play them. If you don't like respawn frags, don't do them. I can make more at least. If you are just going for surviving in FFA, then you can't be really on the top man. I'm going for frags you know, and it is fun.

[Guest q.pixel[rex]]

No rules? Errm...if you compare doom to war, then yes, war would have no rules...but real war isn't fun. Every SPORT has a code of honor because sports are designed to be fun...not destructive = I'd say that deathmatching has more in common with a sport than a war lol.

And yes, I agree that the gameplay is pretty screwy at 200+ ping. My 56k averages at 300 ping ;-(

[AndrewB]

I think that the BFG is part of the game, and we should learn to live with it. As for Excalibur, what are you talking about?? You can't fire the BFG at the ground in csDoom.

[kristus]

Actually real war DO have rules. Like don't shoot at Medical transports etc. Just not a judge around to make sure you play(fight) by them.

[Guest Excalibur_Z]

Well remember what I posted earlier, I've never really played csDoom... only Legacy and SkullTag. Both of those ports have an option to toggle BFG aim on and off, so I figured csDoom must also -- I also went on to believe that servers that had BFG free-aim on weren't worth playing on =)

Just had to clarify there.

[Guest Firewater]

your funny

[Guest PyThOnN]

Heya all
BFG RULEZ!

I like it that all doomers say what they think here!

Greetinngs

[Guest LG]

I only play deathmatch with the bots in ZDoom, which are inhumanly fast but not too clever.
Of course I find respawn kills annoying, but:
1) Sooner or later you get your chance to fight.
2) You can do respawn kills too.
So i think it is as fair as any other tactic; the problem is that many people are more annoyed than with a normal kill because they either lost without being able to show their skills or won in the most boring way.
Other people, instead, like patrolling respawn locations and testing their reflexes with a very quick shot, or trying to run away.
The same applies to the BFG: Do you prefer learning and performing complicated tricks with columns, floors and even sounds or just running, aiming and stalking with a simpler weapon?
I think different people can play with someone having their same tastes and with suitable maps and conditions; Doom can easily accomodate vastly different styles of play with no need to argue.
In my opinion choosing to play a map with some BFGs and/or a tempting disposition of respawn spots, and deciding to respect a "code of honour" to avoid "cheesy" tactics is counterproductive; any artificial inibition is out of place in a simulated battle to the death.
Of course it is a matter of taste, some people like a simulated combat sport or a simulated duel...

[Guest PyThOnN]

Heya, me again

If U think using BFG sucks just go and camp there and kill everyone that want's to get the BFG! GOODLUCK! :)

(ssg rulez, if U R A good player U will win from BFG-ers) and erhh....if not?...then practice more. :)

[fodders]

Camping is ok in my book , but what you suggest (gaurding) is not

[Guest Cephaler]

the bfg serves a purpose. All of you people that have just recently joined the doom deathmatching community through csdoom that are just now trying to tell the old vets that the bfg is for wusses (~25% of you apparently) need to read the bfg faq, practice and start using the damn thing to your advantage instead of whining about it. good players OVERCOME, and as long as they aren't cheating or their ping is insanely better than yours, its YOUR fault that your losing, not the bfg's.
ceph out (MMmmm opinionated posts.....)

[Guest Xenos]

Looks like I have to write another long post.
Yes, BahdKo, you are thinking along the right lines. I can draw an analogy with chess here, which is also a fight to the death. Chess skill requires strategy and tactics, and the terms need careful definition to be properly understood. Tactics (in chess) are the ability to convert an advantage into a win. For tactics to work, a situation has to exist on the board where tactics can be found. If a person can win a piece but fails to see how and misses the opportunity, he is said to have poor tactics. Strategy (also in chess), in contrast to tactics, is what is needed to bring about your tactical opportunities. It is a whole new level of skill being able to make your opponent's position worsen move by move until some tactical means of solving the game presents itself.
Deathmatch in turn has easily identifiable strategy and tactics to it. The ability to shoot and kill, thus taking advantage of the temporary opportunity to convert an advantage into a frag, is tactics. The ability to appear mostly on the shooting side in this equation requires strategy. One cannot quite equate tactics and aim, since there are other levels to deathmatch tactics, such as timing the BFG or placing a rocket around the corner to cover a possible escape route.

Technical skills in deathmatch encompass tactics and some elements of the game that are not immediately fight-related, like surefooted straferunning and fluency in executing complicated manuevers. Technical skills are implementation-specific. Doom2 has a different set of technical skills than Quake, and csDoom technical skills may differ from Legacy and Doom2 proper.

In 1 on 1, equal technical skills do lead to equal scores if both players get an even number of shots at each other. Strategically placing yourself against a player equally technically skilled is the only way to win the game. Messing with your opponent's head, reading his mind, anticipating him, outsmarting him, discombobulating him by being unpredictable, pressuring him psychologically. Strategy is the art of bending the game's odds in your favor, so that you can get a clear shot at your enemy from behind instead of braving it in the face of his SSG. You are a very fragile creature in Doom2, a good shot won't fail to put you away if you are in his clear sights all the time. Therefore, Doom2 strategy is based around manuevers that lead to frags while creating a safety blanket around you. Retreating backwards from plasma while firing back with the chaingun is a good example of a fight with uneven odds. The chaingunner should win more than lose. It is, therefore, a strategically sound manuever.

One more note about playing to that code of honor. It is similar to not taking a piece in chess when your opponent allows it. The respawns come after the player dies, and are a logical consequence of a successful attack. If you deliberately decide not to take hanging pieces in chess, you are not playing chess. If you don't frag people in deathmatch, you are just messing around. I would consider playing an opponent who does not pursue the same game objective that I do a waste of my time. Many times people say that to cover up a potential loss before the game: I don't care if I win, I just want to enjoy myself. If you don't care, play someone who doesn't care either. Nothing wrong with that as long as it is agreed to by all players. It is just going to be something other than deathmatch.

[Guest Xenos]

This is indeed a code of honor topic.
When you type, expect to be fragged. First of all, you don't have to yak while you are fighting. If you do you are asking for it. If you need to say something, type while you are dead or in a safe corner. CsDoom does allow you to demonstrate to others that you are temporarily out of the game: stand in the corner facing the wall, and most people leave you alone. But don't do that in an area of heavy fighting or you may still get fragged. If you get fragged while you are trying to park yourself -- tough. :D

[Guest PyThOnN]

hey fodders,

I was just kidding about that camping man. :)
--------------------------------------------
Everybody just play the game....and if U don't like the things people do there, then kill them!

It is just: KILL or DIE!!
when a soldier in war shoots u in the back,
will u tell him it is not fair? It is a way to survive! so is BGF!
greets, PyTh