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Linguica

New Doom Wackiness

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Well, John Carmack has finished up his Quakecon talk, and as everyone expected, the crowd gathered in Mesquite, TX was given a two-minute nugget of Doom 3 goodness. No camcorders or cameras were allowed for obvious reasons, but here's a list of the stuff I have seen around the net already about the vid / technology / game.

  • Apparently id has "just started" on implementing the game, which sounds kind of worrying?
  • Character models are on the order of 250,000 polys. However, I am willing to bet that we're not going to be seeing 250k poly models in-game -- they will probably be used for lighting information for a lower poly version. See our FAQ for more on that.
  • The game will apparently allow "real-time" level design and level tweaking. Does this mean no more static BSP? Yes?
  • On that note, level compile times will be mercifully short, probably less than five minutes most of the time. No more 48-hour compiles like in Quake 1.
  • More on that note, the Doom 3 engine is apparently an entirely new way of doing things, and Carmack thinks it'll be the New Big Thing that is used for the next 5 years, like the Quake engine has been used up until now.
  • A GeForce3 system is expected to run the game at something like 30 FPS -- I believe Carmack said this in a Slashdot post a week ago or so.
  • The game will have six different renderers for all the different video cards out there. Yay for nonconformity!
  • XBox? Yes, but it'll probably have smaller levels. PS2? Maybe, but it'll have to be hacked up to do it.
  • Trent Reznor still wants to do the sound/music for the game, but hasn't signed any paperwork yet.
  • Speaking of sound and music, Graeme Devine is still in charge of the sound system for the game. Dolby Digital 5.1 is going to be standard. And me with my tinny $10 speakers...
  • The AI in Doom 3 isn't going to be anything to write home about -- presumably it will be decent, but since the game has zombies and hellspawn, they're not supposed to be hyper-intelligent anyway. Carmack said that he's content to let other companies deal with that "problem," as he put it. Maybe we need AI accelerators.
Now we just need to wait for a copy/leak of that video they showed. Until then, here's the Macworld video, Macworld screenshots, and our Doom 3 FAQ.

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"The AI in Doom 3 isn't going to be anything to write home about -- presumably it will be decent, but since the game has zombies and hellspawn, they're not supposed to be hyper-intelligent anyway."

Fuck that. My faith in Doom 3 just dropped considerably. In case you haven't noticed, Mr. Carmack/Mr. Devine, AI in SP games is becoming more and more important. Deus Ex could've been even better overall had the AI been better. Thief 2 had awesome AI. It sounds like id is just going to rehash Doom in a new engine - oh well, I guess that's to be expected of a company that loves to rip off and leech from its fans (Q3: TA, anyone)?

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I agree with Prower big-time. I've lost faith and interest if AI isn't a big factor. It better have damn good AI, better than anything ever made. YES IT DOES MATTER WITH Hellspawn. First of all Hellspawn aren't dumb. Good AI means they exploit their hellish-instincts to the max. Low intelligence doesn't mean you don't have the instincts to dodge my rocket, jump across the room at me while I am reloading, and tumble behind a pillar and shoot your feces at me from around the bend. Even if unintelligent, they ARE Hellspawn; they are supposed to be hellish and cruel and wicked and bloody fast and smart when it comes to killing an opponent, not just scary-looking dumb dogs.

Low AI; give me a break.

For shame, Carmack!

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Hiya.

AI in video games right now sucks anyway. There is simply no *way* "AI" is going to be even remotely close to human level in the next few decades. Oh, sure, you may be able to "fake" it (faster reaction times, bigger 'margin-of-error' for determining if the player hits the monster, etc.), but most 'fakes' (everything out now) is more annoying than cool.
As long as the AI has the monsters 'smart' enough to move out of the way when they are being shot at, hide in the shadows and ambush if they hear you, and use/manipulate their environment...I'll be happy. I would *MUCH* rather have iD concentrate on making cool levels, cool atmosphere, and have the engine be able to handle at least 30-50 monsters on screen (and all throwing fireballs, etc. at you) at the same time. I want DOOM3 to make me piss my pants when I play it...and I want it to be able to do that to me no matter _how_ many times I play it...

^_^

Paul L. Ming

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Guest Skarj

The AI should be good enough to enjoy a fight but you should be able to outwit an enemy also. I just hope they're not aggressive, cheap, death machines like in doombot :). It would be cool to meet a methodical enemy in a game instead of one that directly attacks you and has no fear and is not the slightest bit hesitant(even if artificial). I want a cunning enemy that doesn't always have a given pattern. </rant>

Oh and if Reznor gets the music gig i hope he doesn't ruin another game with the same heavy powerchords he liked so much in quake

*exhale

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I wish they would release that video... what a teaser man. Wish I would've gone to QCon now :|

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One of the things that makes DOOM what it is for me is the stupid monsters. I love their idiotness and lack of intelligence. In DOOM the ambushing and "intelligence" of enemies was the responsibility of the level designer (i.e., pick up a red key and some trap doors open, or a ledge of chaingunners starts sniping at you...). But today enemies have their own intelligence.

In DOOM III I hope the monsters will have a degree of intelligence, but only to the degree of tracking you down, slightly making an effort to dodge attacks (which to me doesn't make too much sense since these are Hellspawn; they are the undead, so when they die they go home and come back again), attack in herds, and position themselves strategically.

I'd much rather fight a horde of mildly intelligent monsters than just take on two ultrasmart imps or something.

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WE MUST PETITION CARMACK AND LET HIM KNOW WE WILL NOT LET REZNOR RUIN THE GAME!!

As for AI, I personally hate all the attempts at "smart" AI out there. Even in Quake 2, you fire rockets at the dudes and they just run right outta the way. There's a useless weapon. Fortunately the AI didn't always work like that, or sometimes they were by walls, but I guess I'm more of an explorer type. That, or fighting massive hordes of creatures like Doom2. But I hate all these new 3-on-1-at-the-most games with enemies doing all this crazy shit. Ambushes and tendencies to hide in dark areas and stuff would be cool though.

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Guest Rhoq

There is the possibility that Carmack's statement was a bit misleading. I seriously doubt we'll be disappointed in the AI in Doom3. Carmack wouldn't let anything through in his game that would he'd consider obsolete technology or reverse progress or whatever. I do have to admit that it stuck me as odd and a bit strange to hear that come from Id. But I really don't think any of us will play the game and say "Geez, if it weren't for this AI..."
I will be an awesome game. No doubts here.

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Guest UAC PR Dept.

Skarj: Reznor's style is less "noisy" and more rhythmic ambient stuff now, it seems to me. For example, The Fragile...

So if he produces some nice ambient stuff, it would really help the atmosphere. The trick, I believe, is to produce a sound that puts the nerves at ease... so when you loosely round that dark corner and there's a claw reaching out at you seeming to have come from nowhere, you piss your pants in pure shock, as pming said...

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Guest Rhoq

er.. it will be an awesome game.

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C'mon people, the AI wasn't good in any of the ID games to begn with even thoe they are some of the best games around(except Quake III). We don't want Unreal experiences with smart AI in Doom... that's what Unreal is for. I disagree with almost all of you... In fact I think it's a great idea. Who wants a fucken zombie to flip around and retreat and come back. lol. I agree maybe in some of the higher class models like Cyber Demons and end-level monsters should have that ability. I disagree with how they are making the game for some reasons. I think they should concentrate on making the game instead of the fucken graphics and visuals. That's why the source port is for and that is why I and others are here for... to modify it and make it look better just like we could with the original; So let's all sit down and think about that ;)

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Carmack said the AI will presumably be decent. "Decent AI" nowadays should at least include monsters dodging rockets and hiding behind pillars. I would favor a more advanced AI for Doom3, but it will do. I probably won't even notice it as the graphics and visuals will totally blow me away.

A 48 hour compile time for a Quake map? Then either you use a 386 system, or the map is incredibly huge. I usually face 2 or 3 hours compile times for Quake maps. Most of the compile time is spent on building the lightmaps, something Doom doesn't have. Since Doom3's lightmaps are calculated in real time, I suppose that saves a lot of compile time.

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reznor is so 'specific' he's a dumb choice to do music/sfx as you either love him or hate him or more likely, haven't heard of him.

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I think since John Carmack/id Software are not going to focus on the AI, they probably have a reason for it. The gameplay will not require it. This doesn't mean that the gameplay will suck because the monsters are stupid, id will work with the AI until they have reached a point where it acts good, and then they won't improve it any more, since they can make up for the eventual missing AI by great level design.

The monsters will not be stupid like the Doom monsters. They won't be no Q3A bots either. They will be something between, and they will most likely be able to make decisions on where to go, dodge rockets, follow simple mission directives...

And Nick: point :P

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Guest cocoon

I think it is pretty lame of id to pic someone so well-known.. They should have gone with someone more underground, some new material.
I have a big confidence in Reznor, but it was an obvious choice unfortunately. Id can afford to pick someone not so wellknown. This way a lot of gamers will get the game because of Trent Reznor.

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I vote Reznor, not that it is an election.

I thought what he did with quake was manage to lift the atmosphere of what to me was just a mediocre game (as far as actually playing it goes) into a dark moody and scary experience.

I still sometimes slap the disc into my CD player and listen to the music (if indeed it is music) but I don't play the game.

I have also used it to great effect in scaring my players when running a role playing game.

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Guest Brutalo

yeah i'd like mass slaughter more than academic imps. those should have variable ai: this one is really smart, their herd leader, but maybe the others are dumb as shit without him...

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Trust me, Reznor isn't very big in America. Most people would only be able to identify "Nine Inch Nails" as a band, and only a select few of those could name "Closer", and only a select few of those could name a song other than "Closer". Walk up to most people on the street and ask who Trent Reznor is and you'll get a blank stare.

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Whilst on the NIN subject, my memory of the chronology of events is confused.

Did the NIN secret appear in E4M1 before or after Reznor was confirmed to do the music for Q1? (or was Q1 even out by the time the "Ultimate" version of Doom?)

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