Guest Posted August 31, 2001 This was quite interesting. You saved me a lot of trouble. You don't realize it, but thanks for calling me "sophisticated". I'd hate to be compared to the dredges out there. Before you try to take that back, it's the "impression" you received that prompted you to write that. So having an answer is bad? Yeah, another piece of cake that is. Lets see an honest debate WITHOUT resorting to personal attacks and show me up .. try to actually THINK. "It seems like deepteam thinks he's better then everyone else..." Not everyone, just lame posters:) -welcome- I show how these posts are offbase and contain fabrications and what is given in return? NOTHING but garbage. All the arguments ran out of steam. I doubt you read the whole thread .. since your next comment revealed the kind of person you are -- thanks again for saving valuable posting time to get that point proven. "F*CK him and F*CK DEEP... there i said it, and i'm happy about it. " Wow, I'm really impressed. That must have taken a lot of thought and effort. I admit that kind of reply never would have crossed my mind. Btw, did you ever PAY for WA or are you one of those freeloaders? Wait you answered that, you think it's FREE. John might be interested to hear about that. And thanks again for making your own points about yourself. 0 Share this post Link to post
ChaosOverlord Posted August 31, 2001 Once again, that's funny... you just said I called you "sophisticated" when I didn't say that at all.. What I said is that you must "think" that you are sophisticated, and for your info, I did read the entire thread, and it even goes on further to prove what a jerk you are... Alls you wanna talk about is "taking it to a personal level"... shit.. you want to take it to a personal level.. ? Cuz in that case I'd be cracking your skull against your precious monitor.. I hate stuck up little geeks like you... Hey, here's an idea, do something useful and go back to your coding... your posts make me sick, cuz they just show how much of a "know it all" you really want to be.. you've proved nothing to me, or anyone else here.. as a matter of fact, you've probably lost some respect, but hey.. if that's what you like, then more power to ya.. keep pissin people off, god knows you've done a great job already.. 0 Share this post Link to post
Guest Posted August 31, 2001 Now for something more interesting. Open projects work if there is a strong leader and someone who oversees it all - just like in a real company. But a bunch of people throwing stuff together with nobody doing some of the grunt checks just won't work. A case in point is the original DEU. The Netscape thing is another. DEU got hammered into the current form because ONE person took it over and improved it. Then he got tired and again ONE person took it over. Yet all this time it was available for more of the "open" project that it was. Yet it didn't happen. Interesting eh? Tightly knit groups do work - a few people who get along well. I worked with a Canadian to get the window's port of DeePsea done. Saved me a LOT of work. Similarly there are tasks that some are kind enough to do for me. For example, testing takes a lot of time - I try to get help on that. But having the "masses" work on it is generally not a good idea .. no matter how hyped up it is. I don't follow the "hot new trend", never have, never will. I don't even use MFC toolbars, they are my own creation:) ZDOOM Randy is a good example of 1 person doing the mods. He doesn't have to worry about other mucking up the code and doesn't have to waste time arguing with anyone. So open stuff is generally not suitable, regardless of the few successes. You don't hear about the failures .. because .. they failed. 0 Share this post Link to post
ChaosOverlord Posted August 31, 2001 ahhh... hypocrites, don't you just love them... no matter what you say, or who you are.. I'd imagine 90% of the people on this website have downloaded (full version) warez.. even you deepteam... everyone looks at warez, and who wouldn't...? it's just to tempting.. 0 Share this post Link to post
SoM Posted August 31, 2001 Ever notice how the deepteam is one guy? heh That's a misleading nick. hehe. Anyway, [I don't "care" what one uses - never said I did (where's the meat -quote me). In fact I said exactly the opposite (it's down there - LOOK).] * StroggOnMeth ph33rs. It's tom_ all over again. [But I DO CARE when I read stuff that is just total b.s.] And there's the catch. [Like YOUR statement. Like the missie guy claiming the levels being screwed up (no details). Or the KABOOM flame (that was actually funny though). Or various other totally of-the-wall statements.] Uh, you never think that maybe the real reason people are bashing deepsea is that they don't want to pay for a doom editor and they are just making other excuses? I mean, this is doom after all. I'd never pay for an editor. [Somehow, I think if someone wrote misstatements about your work we'd never hear the end of it. ] Uh, are you hearing the end of it? Oh, that's right, you never heard the beginning. I don't wine on forums when people bash my work, as founded or unfounded as their claims are. To me, I couldn't care less if people play legacy or my levels (I mean, if people do, that's cool, but I really don't care if you hate legacy or not), so people B.Sing about Zdoom being the "god of ports" really doesn't bother me that much, really. Not enough to carry on a 118+ post flame war about it. [Some of this is just for fun. I admit enjoying a debate and showing how the statements can't logically be backed up. I get strange compliments - Julian gave me one below - usually because an argument goes my way so that supposedly makes me want them to "convert". Nope. Just a fun thing for me.] So you consider stupid-ass flame wars fun? Anyway, yes that "money" comment was a bit below the belt, I should trivialize your hard work like that. I of all people should be sympathetic to you. I mean, I know how it feels to sit there and read endless posts of BS about your work. However, bashing the "other guy" (Zdoom in my case) doesn't change anything. I happen to enjoy using DETH, and I don't think I'll ever change editors simply because DETH works and I like it. I never have problems with it. In fact, I have the source code and I know that the editor is really messy but it works fine. Anyway, I would honestly just end the flame war because it is (as you said) all just BS anyway. No one is really carrying on a real debate, and there will be no winner. You're just going to have to deal with some unfounded critics because that's what the doom community is. : SoM 0 Share this post Link to post
Guest Posted August 31, 2001 You just don't understand a simple bit of psychology. You see, just the fact the you wanted to try to slam me using the word "sophisticated" clearly occurred because the impression I gave you was exactly that. You can't take it back (read my prior post very carefully and see who is the victim of "funny"). If you can't follow this (which I think is true), that's allright. Just don't waste space with your cheap dishonest ways. "Cuz in that case I'd be cracking your skull against your precious monitor.." Wow, I'm scared. I admire the stereo typical image you present of the brute with no brain is amusing. All your comments just reinforce that. Thanks some more. "I hate stuck up little geeks like you..." So now I'm "stuck up". Cause you can't THINK of a single factual non-personal thing to say. And knowing things makes one a "geek"? Well, I'm used to that. I don't hang around with stupid people (that think that way), they bore me too much:) Hey, what about that FREE thing. Did you forget that part. Practically speaking you are stealing WA (that makes you a thief), but you already knew that. People piss themselves off by saying things (like you) that is driven totally by a need to bully (because they have no understanding of the facts). Oh, if you read the entire thread how come you aren't jumping in there with facts and figures to show how "wrong" I am? Seems you'd get off on that? Personal attacks are kid stuff - please don't throw me in the briar patch. 0 Share this post Link to post
NiGHTMARE Posted August 31, 2001 Things I would like to see: 1) The people making this personal (*cough* mystic *cough* ChaosOverLord *cough* ) STOP and keep this on topic, i.e. the merits of Deep versus other editors 2) The people who have been proven wrong (*cough* mystic AGAIN *cough* Deepteam a couple of times *cough*) stop ignoring the points they have been proven wrong on and actually ADMIT they are wrong. 0 Share this post Link to post
Guest Posted August 31, 2001 So all you come up with is more personal insults? You need to get an ego check. I noticed you avoided my challenge and tried to hop skip around it via personal insults. What you stated NEVER happened in this thread. What is that called? Yeah, I got a big laugh when I read you used Deth a while back. Sure, that's REAL productive. Do you use MSDOS edit for your coding too? For consistency you should. They aren't bashing DeePsea bud, they got upset when I questioned their statements (as I did yours). The bashing is just like yours - a dishonest one. "I'd never pay for an editor. " That's not exactly something to brag about. It may sound cool, but it shows a certain lack of information and efficiency. ZDOOM is the best overall port .. and you don't like it. That's coming through pretty clear. Who's doing the "whining" (not wine bud)? Love how you resort to personal things again. "So you consider stupid-ass flame wars fun? " Why did you post? God you are another piece of arrogant cake. Yeah, it's fun to sit here and not use F$K this and A$$ that and actually explain how emotional replies are fun to toy with. As yours is. I could care less about the money comment. Did I ever complain? NO. Some people are cheap, some people steal, some people have no clue how much better their work can be. "simply because DETH works and I like it" So does MSDOS edit. Arguing from a "I like it" position is basically avoiding a real discussion. I laugh when you say you never had any problems with it because I KNOW that's not true and YOU know that's not true. It can't handle the ports and you still insist it's OK? That's bizarre coming from you. "I know that the editor is really messy but it works fine. " Haha, thanks for confirming what I wrote earlier. But I get flamed for saying exactly that? Not only is it "mssy", but because of that mess it still has bugs. <(Quick somebody flame him because he' dissing the authors - lol. Still a mess after all these years and people hacking at it)> What I do or don't do is NONE of your business. Imagine that! In fact, if you think that's ok, then take I'm telling you to stick to facts not childish personal statements. I'm not impressed nor was I ever by your attitude. Do I go around and tell you what to do? NO. That's what being arrogant is all about. Think about it (but you're a 20's kid and won't get this point for a least 10 more years). 0 Share this post Link to post
NiGHTMARE Posted August 31, 2001 To all these people happy with their editors because they "do what they want them to do": Presumably you lot are still using Windows 3.1 or earlier? No? What a suprise </sarcasm> 0 Share this post Link to post
PuPz Posted August 31, 2001 <i>"Oh, if you read the entire thread how come you aren't jumping in there with facts and figures to show how "wrong" I am? Seems you'd get off on that? Personal attacks are kid stuff - please don't throw me in the briar patch."</i><br><br> What are these "facts" you keep mentioning?<br><br> From what I've read so far, I don't exactly see you supplying any facts and figures either. And if personal attacks are kid stuff, what grade level does that put you in? 0 Share this post Link to post
PuPz Posted August 31, 2001 Okay, I guess I didn't need those tags. :P 0 Share this post Link to post
Guest Posted August 31, 2001 Too bad the sensitivity factor is so high. In the real world I run across the same thing. My brother is a MJ user since Vietnam. He thinks it harmless. So do his friends. One of them was bragging about how he quit smoking because - of course - it's bad for you. Great eh? I always forget how defensive people get (meaning they don't "hear" anything), so I (not thinking clearly because of all the 2nd hand MJ smoke) mentioned that a study just came out showing how MJ was worse than tobacco because deep inhaling and holding it in. Guess how that went from there:) I ran for my life:) I admit that it still surprises me that the simplest factual comments unglues some people. As if I was pillaging or something. (Just a little pillaging can be fun though) So rather than me trying to "diss" anything, it was instead given a background on certain things and why I knew. Liking or not liking is NOT a factual discussion (as NiGHTMARE pointed out) and wasn't really my point. I'm always curious to see the reasoning behind some statements. It was too much to expect an answer. 0 Share this post Link to post
Guest Posted August 31, 2001 See it never ends - when a thread gets long it takes real dedication to actually READ the posts. Even I wouldn't read a thread this long:) "I don't exactly see you supplying any facts and figures either" OK, I'll give you the same option as the others. If I show you the "facts" will you apologize? If not, then skim below. Trust me, there are facts. Hint - stroggie just verified one (and that's not too far down either). 0 Share this post Link to post
PuPz Posted September 1, 2001 Read more carefully. I'll break it down for you so it is possible for you to understand... "What are these "facts" you keep mentioning?" Answer the question. I'm not about to read all 130+ threads. "And if personal attacks are kid stuff, what grade level does that put you in?" And I ask this again. I've seen you throw some low blows, too. What exactly would I be apologizing for if you show me the "facts"? I don't even know what the "facts" are (keyword: "From what I've read so far"), so why would I apologize? All I see you doing is giving these lengthly posts about non-sense and avoiding other peoples' points (Bill Clinton anyone?). My original point was that you are a hypocrite. But being the "sophisticated" guy that you are, you probably already knew that. :) You claimed that personal attacks are kid stuff, yet you're guilty of it as well, only you put big sentences and questions behind it. Hey, I'm not putting you down or anything. I'm just calling it how I see it. I don't care what the whole argument is about. So, yeah, answer my questions please. 0 Share this post Link to post
Guest gooachooyumyum Posted September 1, 2001 All that deapteam does is Anylize all the comments and contridict them. He probably sits on his little computer chair scratching his chin and going "hmmm, what should I write about this comment?" Earlier you said "Personal attacks are kid stuff" So are you saying that years and years of bloody wars all over the world is kid stuff? I can't wait to see what you have to say about my message... maybe it will be something like - "All that deapteam does is Anylize all the comments and contridict them. He probably sits on his little computer chair scratching his chin and going "hmmm, what should I write about this comment?" oh yeah well my dad has a tank! 0 Share this post Link to post
NiGHTMARE Posted September 1, 2001 Surely it's better to reply to stuff that's already been said than to go off on a completely different tangent, as the majority of people seem to be doing? 0 Share this post Link to post
Guest mantra_ Posted September 1, 2001 this thread is long for what little it seems to have accomplished. regardless of how saucy deep may be, deepteam is a llama. 0 Share this post Link to post
fraggle Posted September 1, 2001 Re: large open projects not working They work, as long as you have one person (or a small group of people) to guide the project. I suggest you read "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" by Eric Raymond, it gives an interesting insight into methods of open source development: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/ If you want an example of a large open project that DOES work, the obvious choice would be the Linux Kernel. Theres also one much closer to home though: FreeDoom. I have applied the Open Source Bazaar development model to Freedoom development. Why do you think its grown so quickly? :) In any case, what was being suggested was that you open your sources up: that you allow people to have a look at the sources and maybe experiment with them. It wasnt being suggested that you should give away control of deep. The downside to this is that you wouldnt be able to make any more money out of selling copies of deep (that is, you could, but people would be less likely to buy it if they can download it for free). If I were in your position though, I would be asking myself: "do I want to really contribute something to the doom community or do I just want to make a quick buck?" You have the right to release Deep however you want, of course, but it would be sad if the source remained locked away on your hard drive forever for your eyes alone. 0 Share this post Link to post
mystic Posted September 1, 2001 Dont call me a liar, dickhead or I might just find you out. I told no lies and have nothing to gain here. You on the other hand are trying desperately to make money from the doom community and will lie till you are blue in the face to make a buck. Thes facts you keep harping on about dont exist. The reason you are being flamed is because you blatantly insulted wad authors who refuse to hand you their cash for your piece of shit software. It really pisses you off that we are happy with the software we already have doesnt it? You really have no idea just how silly you appear to the rest of us. Dont take Nightmares support to heart, he is just settling some old scores from previous 'debates' and the rest of us know this already and take his comments with a large pinch of salt 0 Share this post Link to post
mystic Posted September 1, 2001 Dont call me a liar, dickhead or I might just find you out. I told no lies and have nothing to gain here. Pray we never meet. I am deadly serious here. You on the other hand are trying desperately to make money from the doom community and will lie till you are blue in the face to make a buck. Thes facts you keep harping on about dont exist. The reason you are being flamed is because you blatantly insulted wad authors who refuse to hand you their cash for your piece of shit software. It really pisses you off that we are happy with the software we already have doesnt it? You really have no idea just how silly you appear to the rest of us. Dont take Nightmares support to heart, he is just settling some old scores from previous 'debates' and the rest of us know this already and take his comments with a large pinch of salt 0 Share this post Link to post
NiGHTMARE Posted September 1, 2001 I'm not settling any "scores", I'm simply presenting the facts and trying to keep this on a non-personal level; I have so far not lied about anything and I don't think I've really insulted anyone. Shame you can't say the same, isn't it? Your lie about DETH not being able to edit levels made in death for example, which you've now conveniently forgotten about, and will continue to ignore even though I've brought it up again. Perhaps you could give some examples of deepteam's supposed lies? You can't? Shame. Maybe you could give some examples of comments of mine that can be "taken with a pinch of salt"? What's that? You can't do that either? Damn! You speak a lot of crap. What a shame you can't actually back any of it up with physical proof. Now, I know you're probably not going to do either of the things I say, and I say this to everyone else if that happens to be the case: you now have proof that he's a BS merchant. 0 Share this post Link to post
NiGHTMARE Posted September 1, 2001 By the way, you seem to have a very strong idea of how other people in the community view me and my ideas and opinions. Unfortunately, this idea you have is WRONG. Just ask someone (well, asides from those few other people who think I've wrong them). I'm sure I have a lot more respect from people around here than you do, and not because I've been here a considerably longer amount of time. NiGHTMARE: 1) Doesn't lie, uses facts. If proven wrong, (usually) admits it - see Ola Bjorling* NiGHTMARE flame war. 2) Doesn't set out to start arguments, either joins in on one or someone takes what is said the wrong way, or whatever. 3) Usually tries to remain as in-personal as possible, preferring educated debates rather than childish arguments ("umm, you called me a name. I'm telling!") mystic: 1) Makes up complete crap, then when proof is given contrary, completely ignores it. 2) Is all too ready to argue about absolutely anything. 3) Appears to take delight in getting as personal as possible in an argument. 0 Share this post Link to post
NiGHTMARE Posted September 1, 2001 That should have read: (well, asides from those few other people who think I've wrongED them). 0 Share this post Link to post
deep Posted September 1, 2001 Wonders of wonders, the deepteam account was deleted. "They work, as long as you have one person (or a small group of people) to guide the project." That's what I wrote - see below. I have no disagreement here. It's totally dependent on having a few competent people who don't get their hairs in a fluff over nothing. "the Linux Kernel." Not exactly. Briefly: it's a bit overhyped as to how successful it all is. Another fad thing. Is it selling well? No. Nary a chip in the corporate world. Is it easy to setup? No. "FreeDoom" Not at the same complexity level. Much much simpler. What exactly can go wrong? Not much. More like a harvesting job. "In any case, what was being suggested was that you open your sources up:" LOL - it will become a disaster. There is more code in there than any DOOM port around. Here's some numbers to ponder. Last look I had 8+mb of code. I think DEU had 500kb or less and look what happened there. BOOM source is about 2.8mb. ZDOOM is about 3.4 mb. Do you think ZDOOM would be where it is if there were many fingers in there? Most of the ports have one focus guy. If he's good (does good testing, listens well, etc), the port is good. Doesn't matter how many little bees float around. "Open" contributions would probably hinder, since they have to be checked for all the usual things. Very few coders have good coding skills. That includes COMMENTS in the code, proper indentation, spacing and all that stuff. IOW, make it readable. So the downside (besides the ones you mention) will be a totally unstable product. It's not easy to master that much code. Even I forget sometimes when I do massive changes - and go OOPS. Originally I came from a 100% ASM background. In that enviroment when you do 20,000 lines of code you better comment well and you better document well. Most coders are very slack in this department. No language and no algorithm is "self evident". "do I want to really contribute something to the doom community or do I just want to make a quick buck?" First off, that's a VERY unfair statement. It implies I'm not contributing. There was all the opportunity in the world for "opensource" on Windeu and Doomed. Never happened. Nobody is that interested. Ditto on the BSP stuff. Ending this where we started. It takes ONE person to make things happen. Good stuff costs money. I buy it. My work is for similarly minded people. If you think for one minute that making $1/hr is making a quick buck then you can have my job. Actually, counting costs, I'm slightly in the hole. Aren't you the one selling CD's? Why? What would probably happen is a quick hack and then nothing would change. The past history of readily available editor source proves my point:) 0 Share this post Link to post
Rellik Posted September 1, 2001 yes, deepsea is like building a house with a skilsaw instead of a handsaw. Unfortunately they've seen fit to attach the hammer to the saw as well. :-) Sorry, but you had that coming. "Arguing from a "I like it" position is basically avoiding a real discussion." So saying that I like breathing isn't a valid argument against drowning? "Think about it (but you're a 20's kid and won't get this point for a least 10 more years)." Sounds pretty arrogant to me, you do understand that you just slammed 99% of the DOOM community right? NiGHTMARE: "To all these people happy with their editors because they "do what they want them to do": Presumably you lot are still using Windows 3.1 or earlier? No? What a suprise </sarcasm>" Okay, who gave NiGHT permission to speak? I thought we all agreed this was not to be allowed. "I'm always curious to see the reasoning behind some statements." Yeah I think we'd all like explainations for some of the things you've said Deep. You are coming across as VERY arrogant and only hurt yourself and your business by not only responding in such a fashion, but continuing and fostering this flamewar. You are in the business of selling editing utilities to the public. Perhaps you should look into all this stuff that a lot of people seem to want. If you really wanted to be successful you would look past your own personal prefferences and biases and give the people what they want, regardless how dumb it may be. If 500 people want your editor, but 1500 people want something completely ass-backwards and slow, by all means give them what they want! Don't you understand that one editor is not he answer? If you had another version of Deepsea available right now with NONE of the extended features, just a bare bones level editor without even a nodes builder, I'd be PayPalling you right now. One editor is not the answer, and is a very un-business like way to do things. Sure your yellow widgets are nice, but I'd like a plain black one so you force me to go elsewhere. Do the smart thing, give the people what they want regardless how inane their request. 0 Share this post Link to post
SoM Posted September 1, 2001 Bah, This is the biggest waste of time. heh. Deepteam: from what I've seen you have an ego the size of a small moon and are very pretentious. [Plus the new floating toolbar means one can just click and go. TRY it instead of just trying to be a boner. (Nah that would not be as much fun)] First personal insult on this thread. From you. [DETH, WA and Waded are the ones that currently destroy PWADS. About 6 years ago I did have a mistake:) (OK, and now and again I screw up.. the price of progress).] First bashing of other editors, by you, simply because people said that they would use those editors instead of DeepSea. [The short answer: End results make such a mess that it's better to use the backup (you did have a backup<g>) rather than try to "fix", assuming it can be read at all. Odd things like wacked offsets, Linedefs with invalid sidedefs references, values out of range of actual objects available .. and so forth.] Never had these problems. Deth 242 had bounds checking for every number and I've never had level "messing" [But all this is old ground. The real reason is that people hate to change. It means you have to learn new rules and new tricks. Not everyone can handle that.] Ebola learned to use Q3Radiant in a week or so, unless you want to say that Q3R is just like DETH.... [What exactly gives YOU the right to trundle on my personality? I don't like how you come in and accuse me of your own perceptions. Did I attack ANYONE on a personal level? NO.] See above. [What you wrote now does NOT match what you wrote earlier. Trust me, it was smack full of -personal- criticism which is not nice. But yet, you again are being judgemental.] Actually, julian was just calling you to task on your method of argument, not what you were arguing about. He was trying to explain how he saw your post. You were judging that as personal insults. You were being judgemental. [Tsk tsk. Not a nice reply and totally off base. Somehow it's ok for you to attack but I can't show how your comments are not very nice and drift 100% into personal areas (every single post).] His comments were not very nice? The level of hypocricy in this quote is staggering. [I truly think you don't understand what I'm writing.] More personal insults. And he's not being nice? BTW, laughing at me for using DETH? That's mature. And as for what I use to code? WTF do you care anyway? SoM 0 Share this post Link to post
RTC_Marine Posted September 1, 2001 DeeP is now known as: knee DeeP in the shit. 0 Share this post Link to post
PuPz Posted September 1, 2001 Well said, Strogg. Everything I meant to say, but couldn't find the words. * PuPz claps 0 Share this post Link to post
NiGHTMARE Posted September 1, 2001 << [I truly think you don't understand what I'm writing] More personal insults. >> Uh, no. He's simply saying that someone is taking he's been written in a different way than he intended. How the hell is that an insult? 0 Share this post Link to post
NiGHTMARE Posted September 1, 2001 mystic, rellik and others seem to think that only those anti-deep(team) should be allowed to talk in this thread. Please explain why. Thank you. 0 Share this post Link to post