DeePsea 11.2 Released

[Rellik]

No, I think everone should voice their opinion and that if Deep's account got deleted over this that is not cool. Let the guy speak, who does it hurt? Just cuz I don't agree with him doesn't mean he doesn't have anything valid to say. The truth is relative to the observer. Opening up to another veiw point leaves you open to the possibility that there is more than one way to look at everything.

Peace? :-)

[Julian]

Before I get accused, I have NOT nor asked for this deletion nor deleted your account myself (as far as I know, I can't delete posts, and I'm VERY happy with this situation).
Once again, I think there is definitly a problem with the way you're percepted here. But I can hardly blame others on this subject. It is, at least for me, very difficult not to get upset by your posts. Even if i agree with most of your statements regarding the editors scene. We're both coders, and we both understand how unprofessional most of DOOM editors are. I find it very frustrating to get upset by a post I agree with.
Anyway, now that I've thought a little more about all this, I really wander if this attitude is not a kind of agressive promotion in order to get all the fast links on top of Doomworld to connect to this news post (hence driving traffic to your own page). I have been confronted with this technique when I was a regular on MP3.com msg board.
I honestly hope I am mistaken.
This being said, keep on the good work on Deepsea: This editor definitly rocks.

[Julian]

Before I get accused, I have NOT nor asked for this deletion nor deleted your account myself (as far as I know, I can't delete posts, and I'm VERY happy with this situation).
Once again, I think there is definitly a problem with the way you're percepted here. But I can hardly blame others on this subject. It is, at least for me, very difficult not to get upset by your posts. Even if i agree with most of your statements regarding the editors scene. We're both coders, and we both understand how unprofessional most of DOOM editors are. I find it very frustrating to get upset by a post I agree with.
Anyway, now that I've thought a little more about all this, I really wander if this attitude is not a kind of agressive promotion in order to get all the fast links on top of Doomworld to connect to this news post (hence driving traffic to your own page). I have been confronted with this technique when I was a regular on MP3.com msg board.
I honestly hope I am mistaken.
This being said, keep on the good work on Deepsea: This editor definitly rocks.

[boris]

Well, I think it's funny that there are actually not many people taking Deepteam's side. Where are all the Deep users?

[fraggle]

> That's what I wrote - see below. I have no disagreement here. It's totally
> dependent on having a few competent people who don't get their hairs in a fluff
> over nothing.

No, you've missed the point totally of what I was saying. You can still
keep control of deep and reject any patches or changes that people send
in. The linux kernel now has hundreds of contributors but it stays
together because it has a few top developers (linus, alan cox etc) who
control what goes into the kernel.

> "the Linux Kernel."
> Not exactly. Briefly: it's a bit overhyped as to how successful it all
> is. Another fad thing. Is it selling well? No. Nary a chip in the
> corporate world. Is it easy to setup? No.

Whether its "overhyped" and "selling well" is irrelevant. This argument
is about writing quality code using large numbers of contributors. If you're
going to refute my arguments then do so, but please dont try to pretend
you're doing so with irrelevant and uninformed comments. As for "corporate
world", try IBM, Sun and Hewlett Packard.

> Last look I had 8+mb of code. I think DEU had 500kb or less and look
> what happened there. BOOM source is about 2.8mb. ZDOOM is about 3.4 mb.
> Do you think ZDOOM would be where it is if there were many fingers in
> there?

Irrelevant again, You will still have control of the project and what goes
into it.

Consider this: you obviously dont have the time or knowledge to, for
example, port Deep to linux or any other operating system. However, if you
released the sources then maybe someone would do it for you. You may not
use linux yourself (only a few people do) but that would still be a good
thing, surely?

And what about the strife support mentioned earlier? You said you didnt
have the time to document the strife format. If you released your sources
then maybe someone can do it for you.

> Very few coders have good coding skills. That includes COMMENTS in the
> code, proper indentation, spacing and all that stuff. IOW, make it
> readable.

So you're saying that nobody else is a good enough coder to contribute to
Deep? Sorry if this sounds insulting but I'm beginning to understand
why people are saying you have the ego of a small moon. As for code layout,
thats why most large projects come with a small document describing the
coding style that must be used in the project. EDGE does this I believe.

> First off, that's a VERY unfair statement. It implies I'm not contributing.

Community is about sharing. You arent sharing anything. QED.

> There was all the opportunity in the world for "opensource" on Windeu and
> Doomed. Never happened. Nobody is that interested. Ditto on the BSP stuff.

Heres that URL again, you may want to read it.

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/

> Good stuff costs money.

The GNU Tools dont cost anything, and most of them are widely considered
to be incredibly good quality programs. Some good stuff does cost money
but that does not imply that something has to cost money to be good. It
is a logical fallacy.

[Guest MTM]

<---- DeePsea user :)

[cph]

Do we really have to have this argument again and again and again an...

Clearly DeeP would make a poor open source project, because the author starts with the assumption that nothing anyone else codes would be any good. While he's not prepared to take contributions, DeeP will remain of limited interest, and will remain shunned by at least part of the community who don't like his patronising attitude.

But trying to argue him into it has proved futile for years, so can we please stop raking the subject up. If he wants to run it as a personal project then that's up to him. The only think I expect is a bit of peace and quiet on both sides.

[cph]

There was all the opportunity in the world for "opensource" on Windeu and Doomed. Never happened. Nobody is that interested. Ditto on the BSP stuff.

Oh yes. So bug fixes I wrote for bsp-2.3x fixing a number of serious node building bugs, which Yadex used for years, don't count I suppose. And all the patches that went into BSP-5.0, from a whole range of people, making it much more efficient and support a wide range of systems, don't count either. And glBSP I suppose doesn't count either.

Oh wait, these are all rivals to DeeP features. Now we understand...

[NiGHTMARE]

Jesus christ, the guy simply says that other editors have bugs and/or he doesn't like the way they do certain things, and you start slamming him.

Think for a minute though.

Using LOGIC, it is clear that he has problems with other editors. Why? Because he's made his own! There wouldn't really be any point if there already was an editor that did exactly what he wanted it to do, would there?

Go ask the authors of WadAuthor, DCK, or whatever what problems there are in Deepsea, and I'll sure they'll give you just as many things as deepteam has presented here.

[AndrewB]

I use DeePsea, and I do believe it is the best overall editor out there. I don't think it is nearly as flawless as the author claims it to be. I have had a couple of WADs destroyed by DeePsea.

But I wasn't about to participate in this childish flame war.

[Fredrik]

200 Kb text of flamewar.

Well done, guys.

[tom]

if you wont listen to reason then consider where doom would be if the source code hadn't been opened up. you certainly wouldnt be selling any copies of deep

[aurikan]

you are on the way to destruction

[Afterglow]

<font size=1><samp>Last look I had 8+mb of code.</samp></font>

Bloatware. Nice.

[Doom]

i'm pretty sure that soon an opensource project, based probably on DETH, will start.. we have the ports and many apps for making DOOM, and the iwads are coming.. then we'll see what can be done

i mean, DETH is pretty cool already, but nothing is stopping anyone from fixing the bugs (and you don't need to pay anyone for bugfixes); personally i'm interested, though i'm not ready yet, skills-wise

[stphrz]

"you are on the way to destruction "

Oh puhleeeeaaaaase :P

Whatcha gonna do? Beat him up?

You kill me =)

LOL!!!!!

[stphrz]

"you are on the way to destruction "

Oh puhleeeeaaaaase :P

Whatcha gonna do? Beat him up?

You kill me =)

LOL!!!!!

[deep]

I thought this was officially dead? Me thinks MYSQL had some serious problems last night. My screen scrolled with lots and lots of error messages. Some of my posts are missing, my login name disappeared, blah blah.

I do enjoy how people define their own thing and then "QED" it. One could "prove" all sorts of interesting things that way. Just postulate and then say, well that proves it.

That's specifically directed at fraggle who somehow redefines the meaning of "contributing" to suit his own goals. I define contributing to the DOOM community as any program that makes level makes easier, faster and more flexible. QED (that's a little math joke)

Btw, I never said DeePsea had no mistakes - the opposite is true - I said I make mistake, my update notes say I make mistakes. I'm always revising things and recombining. No mistakes in 8mb of code? I wish.

FYI, the footprint of DeePsea is exactly the same as DOOM - 4mb (DOOM = bloatware?). Bloatware is something that takes up a HUGE amount of memory for a program that only does a few things. It has nothing to do with the codebase size.

I also never said "nobody" codes as good as me. I said the most coders don't know how to code/style. That's a big difference (sigh). Somehow the idea of flipping through mountains of bad code doesn't appeal to me. Imagine that.

Arrogance? Hardly, I don't like that job. Some do. My perogative.

I'm on the way to destruction.

[kristus]

"I laugh when you say you never had any problems with it because I KNOW that's not true and YOU know that's not true."

I've had any problems with it 2 times, but that was so minor that it was almost funny(I told about it earlier, vertextes swapped places when I was s/m:ing 2 times).

"It can't handle the ports and you still insist it's OK?"

Name 1 (one) port that Deth/Zeth CAN'T handle.

BTW You said Tarin couldn't have played that map if he thought it was crap, Well I downloaded it to see what you were bragging so about.. How long does it take you to ripp some graphics? I've also heard about this really cool feature in doom, it's called texture alignment. Ever tried it? (Maybe I could have said that in a better way.)

[deep]

First off, I really don't care what editor anyone uses. I do care when people go out of their way to lie and misstate the truth. And I do enjoy playing around with "reasons". With that in mind:

I pointed out that your statement about the old DeeP saving a file and not being readable by Deth is not true. Just save in DeeP, now see if DETH can read it. Can it?

Seeing how you avoid that issue, I somehow DO NOT believe anything else you write. I have found that persons of your ilk then to protect their ego at all costs. All you had to do was acknowledge that was not true as stated or explain the circumstances.

You know it's possible for errors to occur that have nothing to do with the program in question. In particular, the DOOM games themselves can cause programs to malfunction after they have run. Happens to me all the time.

It is true that I've made mistakes that can cause that to happen, but for the DOS DeeP that was years ago. I haven't changed it since '97 or so?

"Name 1 (one) port that Deth/Zeth CAN'T handle. "

Try EDGE (can I laugh now).

Importing and exporting the DDF stuff is an integral part of editing Edge. Just like scripting is part of ZDOOM.

When one considers a "port" one has to consider ALL the things that port/game requires - that includes building nodes. For example, GLBSP lumps? What happens to those when you save?

What about any PWAD with other levels/data. I could go on and on about the EXTRA work one has to do to NOT loose data. I consider those BUGS - they destroy files. Lack of foresight if you will.

Let's leave it at that. I'm getting carried away.

NEXT question. That you do or don't have these problems is irrelevant. I'm must describing the general class of issues, not just you.

"How long does it take you to ripp some graphics?"

LOL, yes those are ripped AND color converted, resized with minor graphic mods - ALL by DeePsea. It takes no time at all with DeePsea.

That was what the test was all about. That you resort to finding whatever texture alignment error that are show the kind of TRIVIA you are looking for. Childish attempt to denigrate.

Look, your shoe lace is untied; you dress awful.

Bob Evans (ODESSA) is responsible for part of that level - that's why I laughed at you guys. The real criticism of a level has to do with the actual level, not whether I used a 10mm or an 11mm bolt. Is it fun to play? Does it have things not commonly found? Look at the creation date of the level? At that time is was one of the largest levels ever made.

Mind you, as I've stated over and over, I was just testing DeePsea's features.

Let's put it this way, using DETH, ignoring the graphics, you can't make that level in 1 week. Integration has tremendous benefits - I love the new IDE developer tools - just so cool compard to the clunky old days.

DCK, WA, DOOMCAD and DeePsea run circles around DETH via prefabs if that's the way you prefer to make levels. Of course you said that trying to avoid the 3 to 1 step dispararity (drawing vs dot-to-dot) not realizing what door you had openened.

PS: I also have a tendency to flame jerks back. I just can't be perfect you know. So I confess I shouldn't have said boner - my apologies.

PS2: How come QE3 doesn't use dot-to-dot? They could have you know? - 3d points in space:)

[Jon]

Of course I will be doing my duty and mirroring this to go alongside the other flamewars...

It may just be my silly mind, but doom is a pseudo-3d game with sounds, textures and an entire environment, and deepsea is a windows program using API calls without needing to draw a 3d graphics engine, so perhaps comparing their footprints isn't right.

Also, I've heard rumours that deepsea mangles levels so that they cannot be opened in other editors (or at least, edited properly in other editors). Is this true?

[kristus]

I pointed out that your statement about the old DeeP saving a file and not being readable by Deth is not true. Just save in DeeP, now see if DETH can read it. Can it?


Hrm, WHEN have I said that? Mystic said that not me. I haven't even tried Deep.

First of all. DDF files are just like Dehacked files in a way. They can be external, and I doubt anyone insert them into the wad before they're done. That's just a waste of time. So because Deth don't have a wad compiling utility then it's not possible to edit ports with it?

Again, I ask you. How long does it take you to ripp graphics. Hardly more than 5 minutes a monster? That's what it takes me anyway. But I got this bad habit of making my graphics from scratch. (Except for when I want to make something like a Imp mutation)

Bob who? It doesn't matter who made the map. It's crap. and no it wasn't fun to play.

Whatever textures misalignement? Bah, only aligned textures I could find was those scrolling deepsea commercials you had put in it.

Since the level is rather simple and undetailed I guess I could make it in 1 week. But I won't cause I would hate to waste a weeks worth edeting proving you wrong.(Not to mention how damn boring it would be)

BTW WTH is QE3?

[NiGHTMARE]

No, that is complete bollocks. I have edited levels made in Deep, Deep '97 and Deepsea in DETH and ZETH and everything was perfectly fine.

Perhaps the people you heard these rumours from were trying to open ZDoom/Hexen formatted levels in editors that don't support that format?

[Jon]

maybe... I thought it was something to do with mad optimisations.

[deep]

"I haven't even tried Deep. "

Deep or DeePsea or both? If you haven't tried either, why bother commenting? Seems sort of silly you know.

Your "opinion" on the level is just that. Lot's of people loved it. Most of the textures are aligned. You PLAY a level, not look for flaws. When I first got into this, I was always amazed at this kind of snipping (What if I said your levels sucked what would you say? Well, that's my reaction to you)

DeePATAK was the original level for DOOM2. KABOOM just finished an area the way I wanted it when BOOM 1st came out and some elevators and stuff. REMEMBER stock DOOM has visi limits. Look at the date and compare it to levels in the same time frame.

I doubt your claim - I know what it takes with Deth - that's why I rewrote it. Why do you keep hammering on trivia. I explained the graphics. There are lot's of levels that do this - one in particular used STRIFE too:) Bad author? And why is XWE letting you rip from more older games?

FYI, it takes me about 5 seconds per monster. I just export them all, then convert them all at once and I'm done. It's faster than anything else out there. So what's 5 minutes compared to 5 seconds - no b.s.

If I did them individually it's still very fast, maybe 30 seconds from start to finish for each sprite. Mostly spent in the Open dialogs:) Assuming I know which ones I want.

The most time is spent selecting/renameing them in the PWAD, but even that is pretty duck fast now. Just giving you an example of how your perceptions are not correct.

Lot's of people rip graphics and sprites - ie. not from scratch - and you know that too. QDOOM is ripped quake isn't it? Anyway that was my impression. Want to bang on Fanatic? He did a really good job overall. Needless remark is all - trying for flame points again.

And you skirted around the integration issue. Of course you ran run txtedit, wintex and your editor and hack it all together. But that's not "editing" in an IDE sense, that's just a piecemeal approach - takes lots of extra time.

The topic wasn't how often you do it was it? But if the editor can handle a port totally. Program development used to be a big Tedium. I love the new stuff. None of this jumping around. Some people like jumping around - I realize that. That's why it's not for everyone. But to deny time savings is silly.

FYI, even John Anderson (whom I don't get along with) grudgingly admitted he liked my levels. Now who has more credibility, you or him? (you do know him right?)

And the general ganging up/ bullying that is occurring is very sad. AndrewB (like Julian) are a bit short in the ethics department.

The email I sent Andrew (as a friendly free update to DeePsea) told him "don't tell" when I was jokingly explaining this thread. What does he do? Clipped a part of the email and concludes I'm trolling? Yeah.

These thread responses look like trolling? WTF. Lut must troll like gangbusters if that is true. OR deadnail OR ... Sure I enjoy swapping back and forth, but that's not trolling.

It is true I have NO respect for flamers. If that's the DOOM community (which Andrew claims) then so be it. However, I know that's not true. The flamers just tend to gather like a brush fire.

I look past that at more mature individuals - it's not an age thing at all. People who are honest, have ethics and don't lie.

[Julian]

"I look past that at more mature individuals - it's not an age thing at all. People who are honest, have ethics and don't lie."

Agreed

[tom]

what a coincidence that the thread on the forums is deleted and you immediately return here. please stop trolling, you are making a fool of yourself and your software.

[deep]

Nice ASSumption kid. But no cigar - pure coincidence. I had 2 browsers up, closed one and then this popped up.

What you are doing is called trolling. I'm giving some background. To call it trolling is like me yelling "your mama has dirty underwear". True or false? Grow up past into something more productive than taunts.

On the ethics thing, if that was another snipe back off. I'll gladly debate the ethics of posting a PRIVATE email any day bud. Or of people betraying trust and thinking that's ok to do. Both immature and easily rememied by a mature person.

[Jon]

I think now is a good time to take a brief break from arguing and try and remember what we are arguing about. can anyone help me here?

[tom]

when someone accuses you of trolling your only response is to accuse them back. all i have done is pointed out the fact that you are just posting for attention and enjoy twisting peoples words against them to provoke a reaction which is NOT debate, is EXACTLY what trolling is, and furthermore is what YOU ADMITTED TO DOING in an email you wrote. turning around and calling me a troll for pointing this out is just digging yourself deeper into a hole.