A Look At The Future

[Swedish Fish]

OK OK don't make this into something beyond what it is. It's NOT a public attack on Maonth, his skills, your skills, or RTC-3057. It was a personal dialogue between me and fen boi. I think Maonth asked for commentary, no?

Gameplay IS the most important. No doubt. If you are trying to make a notable level set these days I think you need more then great gameplay. DOOM already lends itself great gameplay because the id designers already did a great job. It's not that hard to implement if you've got experience.

Variation was in reference to "looking outside the box" and as fen boi says "use archs and angles". Or curves and angles.
90 degrees repeatedly has no variation. Variation in the design/architecture. Not variation in texturing styles.

* When I mentioned the two pillars of design I meant 1) gameplay and 2) design...not to be confused with variation which is just a design term I use..

[Shaviro]

swedish fish: it's not all 90 degree, but practical rooms are often 90 degrees.

[Swedish Fish]

Let's just keep in mind this is speculation based on a series of screenshots. However, a picture is worth 1000 words...I think I've got about 30 words left... =)

[NiGHTMARE]

I didn't take it as an attack. It's just that curvy tech bases have a habit of looking, well, stupid.

[w@velength]

I remember when I played Doom 3057. The demo level was large, uninspired, boring. Many of the puzzles were unsolvable, and it was just stupid. Hope they fixed it.

[NiGHTMARE]

This is RTC 3057, not Doom 3057.

[Shaviro]

wATvelength: That was an old demo for DOOM3057, this is RTC-3057. There is a difference.

[Rellik]

Still looks bloody bitchin' to me.

[kristus]

Nick: You're dissing kurt keslers maps? ;p

[Guest coldfusio]

I like the atmosphere of the screenies. I will download doom ( gpl ) for playing it.

[stphrz]

90 degree angles are no worse, no better than any other angle. A level should have all sorts of angles. Thing is, a Doom level doesn't need real realism. It needs Doom realism (different thing). That said, I think the screenies look cool. Maonth an co. have the skillz, so to speak :)

[deep]

You don't need to make a separate case for DOOM at all.

ANY level for ANY game needs to make you feel as if it "could" be real (to you). Yes, even Space Invaders!

So realism IS a key component. This applies to SF/Fantasy movies as well. If one's visual senses can't relate to it, guess what .. the final destination - one's mind - can't relate to it either.

Half-Life's success is driven by this. Look at the "new" WWII games. Why are they so popular? Answer - realism. IOW, the ability for one to have a vicarious experience in an environment that is easily related to.

Heck, that's what turned me on to DOOM in the first place. Immersion in a world that my mind could believe was "real".

There are many ways to accomplish this - so arguing about "angles" is pointless. I can never determine much from screenshots. It's like judging a woman by a picture of her breast:) Interesting yes.

[inferno_45]

Hey! Thats exactly what I was going to say! Well, maybe not word for word, but close. :)

[Jon]

It's odd how pretty much all of half-life is "boxy", yet it's still considered by most people to be the best game ever made.

Well, I vaguely remember the train ride being rather varied, the bits involving the canyons certainly weren't boxy either.

I still love halflife. It felt to me that finally an FPS had been released that was up to doom's par.

[Tobester]

saucy

[Doom]

just watch ALIEN again. pay atention when to the nostromo and also to the ancient wreckage, tell me if you dont see great ways to use slopes, and if they don't help enhance the architecture

(and this from someone who doesnt like slope-using ports too much, but can appreciate when something is used to its potential; if you change the means, the ends can't stay behind)

deep: the ability to captivate is not tied o realism, realism is not the same as being convincing; realism is the faithful representation of 'reality' (not that easy to define it nowadays). note that often, what's intriguing is what is strange and unusual. there's a need for coherence an class, but realism per se is often crass

[Aardappel]

realism sucks

[deep]

Lol - love semantic arguments that presume to change the facts as stated.

I said: "as if it "could" be real (to you)". Mmm, could that mean the same as CONVINCING? Rest of post was similar (read it again).

If it wasn't REAL/CONVINCING to the player in SOME way, one would never relate. Look at my example of "Space Invaders". Is that "real" (oops, convincing) as projecting a scenerio where evil aliens are about to destroy the world?:)

Please let's not debate about twists and turns of common words. There are many alternate word combinations that essentially mean the same thing.

Realism is for pussies .. just felt like adding nonsense.

[Doom]

no

realism is a doctrine or school of thought or art. particularily writing and painting, and of course also in film-making, and undeniably in relation to these games we play.

but i see that semantics isn't your favorite branch in the study of linguistics

as a matter of fact, i read your post quite well, and i was clearly aiming at your confusion between the design style and the effect of a game being likeable

i'm not sure i know what you mean by 'what 'relates to one,' but in my case (and i bet i'm not alone, albeit i'm sure i'm no common standard), i'm kind of repeating what i said below, but it seems to bear importance in this case: what attracts me in DOOM and other games or works i like is more often than not what i feel CANNOT be real and is weird or unintelligible to me, yet at the same time captivating an in some way illuminating

this differs from the fundamentals of what you're stating quite radically, imo

[deep]

Whoo baby, this sounds like one those things that can get out of hand ..

quote: "i'm not sure i know what you mean by 'what 'relates to one,' "

Then why are you arguing with me? And if you quote, please do so accurately. I never stated what you quoted. Are you using a translator or something?

Please don't make stuff up nor make lame accusations, not nice. I said I ENJOY linguistic arguments - how one could get that backwards is beyond me (except via a translator).

Nor am I confused about style vs liking a game. In fact "style" never came up in my post - except to say that arguing about angles is pointless. Maybe you got confused by the other posts which did go into that.

Not only have you twisted my words, but then you actually changed the subject.

You said "convincing" and I pointed out that's just another way of saying what I did. In fact, you continued with exactly more of the same pointless linguistic semantic variations. Who cares. Everybody knows what I meant.

Your "definition" at best is a subset of the world of "realism". Realism goes much further than what you listed. It's sort of like putting a single sentence description on "love".

It's a waste of time nitpicking on various interpretations. But even more so when someone inaccurately attempts to change what I wrote. So just cool it - nobody cares.

[Rellik]

God damn it! It looks nice! For fucks sake! Gahhhhh!

Why use real too big words! What you say?!

LOL

[Doom]

good, as you can see, that evidently wasn't a direct quote. it was you who was talking about using different words for equivalent meanings, right? well, i can too! (but correctly). i wasn't quoting you directly, instead i was reformulating what you said, my way.

oh, words appearing like 'this' aren't quotes; it's an enphasis denoting the meaning is in question or, in other words, when a sign/term is being examined in relation to it's use or context. if you want you can say i'm quoting plato's ideals, but not more than that

and..

"And if you quote, please do so accurately. I never stated what you quoted. Are you using a translator or something?"

"If it wasn't REAL/CONVINCING to the player in SOME way, one would never relate."

there you go, my reference is there, don't you like my indirect quote now?

"Please don't make stuff up nor make lame accusations, not nice. I said I ENJOY linguistic arguments - how one could get that backwards is beyond me (except via a translator)."

try to reread what you wrote, and tell me if you don't find a) sarcasm, b) 'semantic arguments' as a deriding concept, in which you imply that i'm just playing with words: "Lol - love semantic arguments that presume to change the facts as stated." so you never mentioned you liked discussing linguistics up to your last post, and, let me help you, obviously, my statement refers to the fact that the study of linguistics is not your thing (unlike coding and whatnot)

"It's a waste of time nitpicking on various interpretations. But even more so when someone inaccurately attempts to change what I wrote. So just cool it - nobody cares." don't reply if you feel it's a waste of time, as for me, the meaning of the term 'realism' is a worthy, and relevant, subject. who's miffed here anyway? heh

as for 'styte' i was refering to the only thing 'realism' can mean, which is the way to do art or as a philosophy, which shows up in your discourse quite clearly:

"Half-Life's success is driven by this. Look at the "new" WWII games. Why are they so popular? Answer - realism. IOW, the ability for one to have a vicarious experience in an environment that is easily related to.

Heck, that's what turned me on to DOOM in the first place. Immersion in a world that my mind could believe was "real"."

and as for your other two or three paragraphs: that's what i'm talking about (other than the fact that i'm no realist), the meaning of 'realism' and the relation of realism to game design. check www.m-w.com or some other good dictionary, and you will see that the meaning of 'realism' is not broad at all, and that by no means is it synonymous with 'convincing'

also, going back to the begining: writing is not clear at all, and talking things for granted only helps people carry a bigger sack of misconceptions

[deep]

"God damn it! It looks nice! For fucks sake! Gahhhhh!" I AGREE

To Doom: Looks like English is not your native tongue or if it is you are pretty young. Here's some cheap advice. Don't presume to understand what you clearly do not when translated to your background.

I don't like to argue with someone who misinterprets simple things, changes common rules, doesn't understand what is clearly the opposite of what you claim and easily gets their ego in a fluff.

It's not nice to "reformulate" and imply that's what I wrote. What your imagination came up with is NOT what I wrote. If one can use imaginary deductions then one can say just about anything (simple logic).

A dictionary is a POOR way to argue. As I mentioned see "LOVE". Impossible to wrap up in a few sentences. Many words have "context" meanings NOT shown in a dictionary. I hope you get "sanguine" about this subject.

IOW, you are WAY OFF BASE (hope in translation you know what that means) in what is becoming essentially a pissy flaming contest.

Let's hope you at least learn not to make stuff up. Don't rephrase anything and claim that's what the person wrote. And last but not least, don't presume to know what the other persons interests are. I do love semantic arguments (meaning I LIKE TO ARGUE - DUH), just not with people who are overly sensitive and resort to flaming.

Be nice.

[Erik]

As far as I can see, doom's spelling and sentence building are pretty much flawless. The only exceptions are a few missing letters which seems to originate from his typing speed rather than poor English.

"Be nice" - you should be telling yourself the exact same thing.

[deep]

Like I said earlier, this is going to degenerate. Typical forum crap now. Ganging up, false accusations, blah blah. Boring.

Where exactly am I being not nice Erik? I think anyone has a right to explain when someones misinterpreting (or else you can't either - it's that simple).

Nothing he "interpreted" is what I said nor what I meant, his "dictionary" notwithstanding. I think "I" know what I meant eh! Or are you becoming a mind reader too?

Look carefully at doom's last post - Obviously its mostly an attempt to be a smart ass. Why did you choose to ignore that? Why did you choose to ignore my explanation? Simple, because your only intent was to flame me. You bad.

Did you attempt to understand my explanation? Of course not. You just wanted to stick you nose where it's not required. It's you who are not being very nice. Think about it.

I think he can answer for himself eh? Don't think you are a mind reader for BOTH of us.

I'll repeat, Doom is mistating what I wrote. He even admittted he didn't know what I meant for god's sake. Btw, Erik, English isn't your native language is it? Believe me, there are many variances that are impossible to learn from a "book". Besides the simple fact that I never described "realism" as he claims, the simple truth is that he oversimplifies the term anyway.

Of course nobody actually reads these things. The next post will be just another flame ignoring anything relevant. Too bad it always has to get like this.

[w@velength]

Whoa whoa whoa- who was dissing Half-Life? HL is the best game ever made. Boxy my ass. If you want to be some toothless english prick who walks around saying "Ah, gooday ol' chap, cheerio, half-life was rather boxy but they still like it" well fuuuuuuuuck you! Damnit, "boxy". It's called Realism. Damn, there was so much detail and tension in all of the areas in Half-Life... If by boxy you mean the hundreds of beautifully textures, realistic rooms... Yeah, Xen was real "boxy".

If anyone has played HL: Blue Shift then you've seen the most beautiful architecture and detail, level design, whatever in any game. That was a very pretty add-on. Rocked too!

[Shaviro]

I would also like some comments about the project :P

[Swedish Fish]

God, why have you let me open pandora's box yet again?

[Doom]

deepdude:

"It's not nice to "reformulate" and imply that's what I wrote. What your imagination came up with is NOT what I wrote. If one can use imaginary deductions then one can say just about anything (simple logic)."

you said:

"If one's visual senses can't relate to it, guess what .. the final destination - one's mind - can't relate to it either. "

"IOW, the ability for one to have a vicarious experience in an environment that is easily related to. "

my 'imagination' 'came up with' this (asking you to clarify for the sake of a richer dialogue):

"i'm not sure i know what you mean by 'what relates to one,' " (without the typo now, so you don't get messed up that easily)

but i had already pointed this out, but what happened? thus, now i reformulated it, so you can have a good picture of what i meant. now i'm nice, isn't it sweet?

and at the expense of repeating myself, i urge you to pay attention to dictionaries and encyclopaedias and good books, they have a lot to give; and in respect to language, they are MUCH more enlightening than forum posts and technical manuals. check them out, you'll thank me in the end!

erik alm: i played your eaeuro02 the other day, cool map, the sheer size and gloom coupled with those textures, height variations and distant torches give it a great atmosphere. had to play on easy though, hopefully we'll see some doomgod blasting through soon

[Doom]

maonth, they're just screenshots. we want maps!