One Nation, NOT Under God, Indivisible

[dsm]

Lüt said:

Heh, add me to that list.

You're already on that list.

[Lüt]

dsm said:

You're already on that list.

o_O

I don't remember ever saying that to anybody, but ok :P

[IMJack]

dsm said:

Btw IMJack, there are a bunch o' people (myself included) that are trying in vain to reach you on AIM.

Sorry 'bout that, I can't keep AIM running idle on this comp between the limited 'Net connection and having to share with the rest of my family. I'll try to be on more.

[dsm]

Lüt said:

o_O

I don't remember ever saying that to anybody, but ok :P

Well, I heard it from pritch.

IMJack said:

Sorry 'bout that, I can't keep AIM running idle on this comp between the limited 'Net connection and having to share with the rest of my family. I'll try to be on more.

No problem, I just thought you wanted to know.

[Lüt]

IMJack said:

Sorry 'bout that, I can't keep AIM running idle on this comp between the limited 'Net connection and having to share with the rest of my family. I'll try to be on more.

Oh you're still at home? Heh, nevermind then, I saw you a few days ago and figured you were back at school.

Excellent fish, BTW =)

[Wobbo]

deadnail said:

That much is true, but no matter how different on the surface each one has been EVERY SINGLE SOCIETY that has existed for the last 4000 years has focused on shovelling 95% of the wealth into 5% of the population. Every single one.

wrong. maybe for the past 7000 years, but human beings have been around much longer. Thats why the bible ( which claims humanity has only existed since the jews) and other tools of the rulers are necessary - to convince you that we have never been free even though we have

Besides, youve also forgot ("Primitive") tribal societies which still exist today.

Doom-Child said:

So, your idea is that people have no free will? How does the fact that I adhere to a socially unpopular system of belief contribute to my character unless I make a conscious decision? People caused the world's problems, why shouldn't they be blamed for them? You're assuming that everyone who adheres to a system of belief does so for the same reasons and is affected in exactly the same ways.

The Few Are The Same As The Whole
Example: One person killed another. No one did anything to stop him. Therefore, all people condone murder.

See how faulty that logic is?

WOW THAT WAS IDIOTIC!!! you just scolded me for using "the few are the same as the whole" logic, but used it TWO SENTENCES BEFORE. PEOPLE DO NOT CAUSE WORLD PROBLEMS. for example, mass starvation is NOT the cause of some guy stealing foods. Apparently when you think of world problems your concerned with relatively tiny issues like individual murder, not war or anything important. the whole point was that poeple even though they are directly responsible, are the product of the system they are in. You HAVE to make a profit under capitalism. You HAVE to obey your religion (well your masters interpretation of it) or you wont be in it. You HAVE to serve for your governemnt or you will be jailed or kicked out. Free will or not, thats the way it is under this system.

Doom-Child said:

As for bringing an end to a system that breeds bigotry, you have better luck teaching a duck to play chess. Every system, if overapplied or misapplied, produces bigots. I defy you to find a system that can't be distended to do so.

HOW ABOUT NO SYSTEM? ANARCHY. Duh. Besides, capitalism isnt an ancient idea, and neither is statism relatively speaking. Even the most basic heirachial institutions in our society (religion, the state, the private buisiness) are at most only 7000 years old. (Of course since your a christian, you dont beleive that humans have even existed before then, but nevermind i cant logically argue against "faith") These systems WILL end and die out like the diseases of humanity they are.

[stphrz]

I disagree with all the statements in this thread that declare that religion is a major cause of wars. No. No. And No. Go earn some history. There has never been a time when nations have risked their sovereignty over something so noble as religeous or political beliefs. Never. In the end it all comes down to something more simple, more human. Greed. Greed for land. Greed for natural resourses. Greed for strategic position. Even the Crusades in the end came down to greed. Terrorists are attacking Isreal and the U.S. out of you guessed it, greed.

How do you stop people from being greedy?

[fodders]

stphrz said:

Terrorists are attacking Isreal and the U.S. out of you guessed it, greed.

How do you stop people from being greedy?

Wrong, there is no greed in the Palestinian cause, they are the occupied people, it's the greed for land by the Israeli's and the greed for money from the American Congressmen taking millions from the jewish Americans to supply so many billions per year in free weapons to Israel

[stphrz]

fodders said:

Wrong, there is no greed in the Palestinian cause, they are the occupied people, it's the greed for land by the Israeli's and the greed for money from the American Congressmen taking millions from the jewish Americans to supply so many billions per year in free weapons to Israel

I stand by what I said. There is greed on both sides. Arafat wants his own country to rule. He wants land. He also wants the land that is occupied by the sovereign state of Isreal. He rejected the last deal (at Camp David) a few years ago because of insufficient bling. He'd like to push the Israelis into the sea. Isreal on the other hand would like to make Arafat and the Palestinian authority disappear. It's not religion that is the sticking point here. It's land and resources, and who gets what. Greed, greed, greed.

[Marauder]

Wow. Xian is apparently a staunch humanist. As such, I'll guess that the idea of sin or such transgression probably doesn't sit well with him. Yeah, that might change the way he sees religion.

Xian, I think I remember you speaking of institutions or systems... Oh, here it is:

Xian said:

wrong, PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE BLAMED FOR the worlds problems, the SYSTEMS under wich they live under and curruption of the BELIFS they hold are the root of the problem.

Okay, this of things this way:
If you look at the behaviors that a religion promotes(take Christianity, my familiarity), I think you will see the product of that system. Christianity textually promotes the lifestyle of the ideal citizen(fruits of spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindess, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control). Bigotry stands in contradiction to these values.

And before you throw back at me that many Christians are bigots, remember that the squeaky wheel get the oil - you only remember the ones that made a serious(in this case, negative) impression. How many other people go to church that do not act that way? You'd have to poll a whole church to find that out!
Remember that the church does not attempt to produce bigots, but there are bigots who will spring up and adopt any topic from race to religion to whether or not Coca-cola should be taken straight or over the rocks. I'm for ice, myself, but that's not binding on anyone else.
I *think* I adressed what you were saying correctly.

[KDarigal]

Xian was talking out his ass as follows:

deadnail said:
That much is true, but no matter how different on the surface each one has been EVERY SINGLE SOCIETY that has existed for the last 4000 years has focused on shovelling 95% of the wealth into 5% of the population. Every single one.

wrong. maybe for the past 7000 years, but human beings have been around much longer. Thats why the bible ( which claims humanity has only existed since the jews) and other tools of the rulers are necessary - to convince you that we have never been free even though we have

Besides, youve also forgot ("Primitive") tribal societies which still exist today.

Deadnail's managed to just state the entire PURPOSE of society.

Personally, I'd rather go to the logical conclusion, and just shovel all of the wealth to me. Hooray.

Xian, unfortunately, continued:

Doom-Child said:
So, your idea is that people have no free will? How does the fact that I adhere to a socially unpopular system of belief contribute to my character unless I make a conscious decision? People caused the world's problems, why shouldn't they be blamed for them? You're assuming that everyone who adheres to a system of belief does so for the same reasons and is affected in exactly the same ways.

The Few Are The Same As The Whole
Example: One person killed another. No one did anything to stop him. Therefore, all people condone murder.

See how faulty that logic is?

WOW THAT WAS IDIOTIC!!! you just scolded me for using "the few are the same as the whole" logic, but used it TWO SENTENCES BEFORE. PEOPLE DO NOT CAUSE WORLD PROBLEMS. for example, mass starvation is NOT the cause of some guy stealing foods. Apparently when you think of world problems your concerned with relatively tiny issues like individual murder, not war or anything important. the whole point was that poeple even though they are directly responsible, are the product of the system they are in. You HAVE to make a profit under capitalism. You HAVE to obey your religion (well your masters interpretation of it) or you wont be in it. You HAVE to serve for your governemnt or you will be jailed or kicked out. Free will or not, thats the way it is under this system.

"People do not cause world problems." I'm sorry, but isn't that pretty obviously WRONG? Or do you see just these ideas running loose with nothing to carry them killing millions of people, causing droughts, etc.?

And there's nothing that says you have to make a profit under capitalism - look at the US Post Office. Raising the price of stamps again, driving more people into using e-mail.

Again, with religion, it's not an obey-or-get-excommunicated thing. There are plenty of "good Christians" (HAH) who work for, say, the tobacco companies (gun companies, as porn directors, etc., you get the point). They spend five days a week getting people to break one or more of the Ten Commandments, and then go to church, act like they're so wonderful, and then go back to work. (Most of them are also having affairs, so they're breaking the 6th, I think, themselves.) Sorry, but whether you do it yourself or you convince others to do so, it's on your own head still.

And I serve the US government best by not doing so.

Xian concluded his idiocy with:

Doom-Child said:
As for bringing an end to a system that breeds bigotry, you have better luck teaching a duck to play chess. Every system, if overapplied or misapplied, produces bigots. I defy you to find a system that can't be distended to do so.

HOW ABOUT NO SYSTEM? ANARCHY. Duh. Besides, capitalism isnt an ancient idea, and neither is statism relatively speaking. Even the most basic heirachial institutions in our society (religion, the state, the private buisiness) are at most only 7000 years old. (Of course since your a christian, you dont beleive that humans have even existed before then, but nevermind i cant logically argue against "faith") These systems WILL end and die out like the diseases of humanity they are.

Anarchy works when people aren't predisposed to hate people for minor differences already. Unfortunately, this is partly a genetic feature, and so getting rid of bigotry entirely would require a few hundred years of arranged marriages.

It'd be easier to just direct humanity genetically towards being less and less different... or to teach a duck to play chess.

And as far as "diseases of humanity"... I can't wait until we breed stupidity out of the human race.

P.S. Modern humans with all their lovely religion, bigotry, and such have only been around for about ten thousand years anyway according to the best estimates scientists have. Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it, bucko.

[Doom-Child]

Xian said:

wrong. maybe for the past 7000 years, but human beings have been around much longer. Thats why the bible ( which claims humanity has only existed since the jews) and other tools of the rulers are necessary - to convince you that we have never been free even though we have

Your bad grammar aside, you are completely and totally mistaken (and this has nothing to do with my faith, it's simply a matter of you having no facts). If you go back and read the Bible in the original text (Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic), you find larges spans of time that aren't accounted for. For example, during the story of the creation, the Hebrew word for day ("Evening and morning was the first day", etc) isn't actually the word for "a 24 hour cycle", instead, it's meant to express a period of time with a definite beginning and end. In all possibility (though this is a subject of constant discussion in the theological world), the actual creation took an incredibly long time. Also, humanity did NOT begin with the Jews. The Jews didn't start until Judah, one of the sons of Jacob, from whom the name "Jew" comes from, was born.

As to a lack of freedom, I thought I already hit upon that point. Any system of belief requires that you first make a conscious choice to enter it. That point alone is enough to debase your claim that humans are completely free of guilt because of their association to a belief system. A choice implies consequences, and making that choice involves putting yourself squarely in front of those consequences. When you steal something, you make a conscious effort to take it, and you also (even if you don't know it) put yourself squarely in line with the consequences of your actions.

WOW THAT WAS IDIOTIC!!! you just scolded me for using "the few are the same as the whole" logic, but used it TWO SENTENCES BEFORE. PEOPLE DO NOT CAUSE WORLD PROBLEMS. for example, mass starvation is NOT the cause of some guy stealing foods. Apparently when you think of world problems your concerned with relatively tiny issues like individual murder, not war or anything important. the whole point was that poeple even though they are directly responsible, are the product of the system they are in. You HAVE to make a profit under capitalism. You HAVE to obey your religion (well your masters interpretation of it) or you wont be in it. You HAVE to serve for your governemnt or you will be jailed or kicked out. Free will or not, thats the way it is under this system.

Are you saying that murder is unimportant?

In the case of my statement (people caused the world's problems, why shouldn't they be blamed for them), I was addressing a fact. People have caused the world's problems. When you look at statistics from World War II, you don't see sheets of numbers on how many systems of belief were killed, you see people. Starvation occurs when PEOPLE don't give PEOPLE enough food. When you look in the courtroom, you see people accused of crimes. I've never seen Buddhism or Christianity take the stand for or against the accused. I've seen Buddhists and Christians, but in the end, the world is made of people.

I never said that you should be blamed for some serial killing. I said that the people AT FAULT (which is what you seem to take offense to) should be blamed. In a war, the people who started it are the people who should be punished for it.

HOW ABOUT NO SYSTEM? ANARCHY. Duh. Besides, capitalism isnt an ancient idea, and neither is statism relatively speaking. Even the most basic heirachial institutions in our society (religion, the state, the private buisiness) are at most only 7000 years old. (Of course since your a christian, you dont beleive that humans have even existed before then, but nevermind i cant logically argue against "faith") These systems WILL end and die out like the diseases of humanity they are.

And we can only hope that the system of beliefs that led you to such incredible human knowledge will prevail. Have a shot of cyanide and listen to the tripe you're pushing.

big·ot n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

With the possible exception of one person, every anarchist I know fits this description. Technically, by so vehemently supporting your belief (and you are adhering to a system of beliefs here), you are a bigot. You are obviously bigoted against everyong with any idea opposite to your own. I can't think of a single system of beliefs (and anarchy, whether you like to admit it or not, is still a system) that doesn't produce people who fit this bill. Face it. YOU ARE WRONG.

DC

P.S. Real faith is more logic than blind belief. But you're probably using the wrong definition of logic too.

[IMJack]

I'm going to back up most what Marauder and KDarigal said, sans the trolling.

Xian said:

Thats why the bible ( which claims humanity has only existed since the jews)

Huh? Where did it say that? You must be using a different version of the Bible than me.

to convince you that we have never been free even though we have

Free to do what? "Throw rocks at our own shadows and die of old age and fear at age 24"? Freedom isn't much good if there's nothing you're free of, and nothing freedom really allows you to do. Keep in mind, "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."

WOW THAT WAS IDIOTIC!!! you just scolded me for using "the few are the same as the whole" logic, but used it TWO SENTENCES BEFORE. PEOPLE DO NOT CAUSE WORLD PROBLEMS. for example, mass starvation is NOT the cause of some guy stealing foods. Apparently when you think of world problems your concerned with relatively tiny issues like individual murder, not war or anything important. the whole point was that poeple even though they are directly responsible, are the product of the system they are in. You HAVE to make a profit under capitalism. You HAVE to obey your religion (well your masters interpretation of it) or you wont be in it. You HAVE to serve for your governemnt or you will be jailed or kicked out. Free will or not, thats the way it is under this system.

You don't HAVE to live in a capitalistic society. You don't HAVE to have a religion that has strict behavioral and belief requirements. You don't HAVE to live in an overly repressive or restrictive government. And society doesn't HAVE to be capitalist, religion doesn't HAVE to be specific and restrictive (my old roommate was a Unitarian), and governments don't HAVE to lord over you with laws that go beyond the common sense. If people decide they want a new system in place, they can take steps to create a new system, and damn the old one.

(In reply to how bigots will always exist.)
HOW ABOUT NO SYSTEM? ANARCHY.

I see this, and I can just envision you, in a true anarchy, getting in random arguements with people over how great anarchy is and blowing away people who don't agree with you, and I think "Q.E.D.".

Of course since your a christian, you dont beleive that humans have even existed before then, but nevermind i cant logically argue against "faith"

And Q.E.D. yet again on the short-sighted, closed-minded bigotry. Believe me when I say most Christians aren't the bible-thumping Creationist apocolyptics you make them out to be. But like the other guy siad, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."

On a tangent, foders wrote
Wrong, there is no greed in the Palestinian cause, they are the occupied people

They want their land back and are willing to wipe the Israelis off the face of the earth to get it. How is that not greed? Two old cultures are both trying to scrape together a niche in the modern world, neither clearly superior to the other, and neither wants to get along nor share their toys.

Lüt said:

Excellent fish, BTW =)

Heh, I thank dsm for that one. ^_^

[Doom-Child]

Someone thought rationally before posting, and it was good.

DC

[GS-1719]

Palestinian cause the result of greed? Your judgement has clearly been clouded by US zionist propoganda. Read: http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=2864

Don't expect a serious response to such a stupid and ridiculous claim.

[AndrewB]

GS-1719 said:

Palestinian cause the result of greed? Your judgement has clearly been clouded by US zionist propoganda. Read: http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=2864

Don't expect a serious response to such a stupid and ridiculous claim.

Agreed completely. End of story.

[IMJack]

I'll reconsider my take on the Israel/Palestine thing, but I don't really think "The Muslim News" is the best source for fair, unbiased journalism.

Journalism... heh. Such a joke in this day and age.

[Sharessa]

GS-1719 said:

Palestinian cause the result of greed? Your judgement has clearly been clouded by US zionist propoganda. Read: http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=2864

True, the US news media is bullcrap, but the way I see it is that greed = wanting something someone else has. Thats exactly what Palestine is doing.

[læmænt]

WTF, jeez. Either ban me or stop deleting my posts already.

[Little Faith]

stphrz said:

I disagree with all the statements in this thread that declare that religion is a major cause of wars. No. No. And No. Go earn some history. There has never been a time when nations have risked their sovereignty over something so noble as religeous or political beliefs. Never. In the end it all comes down to something more simple, more human. Greed. Greed for land. Greed for natural resourses. Greed for strategic position. Even the Crusades in the end came down to greed. Terrorists are attacking Isreal and the U.S. out of you guessed it, greed.

How do you stop people from being greedy?

Yeah, and why then do Israel occupy Palestine in the first place? You guessed it, Greed.

[fodders]

IMJack said:

They want their land back and are willing to wipe the Israelis off the face of the earth to get it. How is that not greed? Two old cultures are both trying to scrape together a niche in the modern world, neither clearly superior to the other, and neither wants to get along nor share their toys.

Heh, I thank dsm for that one. ^_^

Tell me that every American or citizen of any country, attacked as the Egyptians and Syrians were in 1967 by the Israelis, and land taken and occupied would not fight to their last drop of blood to get it back? The Americans did a damn good job of securing their lands from the British because they considered the Brits to be an occupying force

[Undamned]

I think that my earlier comment was a bit misunderstood and I want to apologize for the "I wanna piss people off" attitude it was written in. I used the word heathens only to describe the politicans who took the under God part out as people who do not believe in Christ. By no means did I mean that these people are lesser than those who do believe in Chirst. In terms of seeing past thier own selfishness, that is a struggle we all must go through and I believe that the only person to win that struggle was Christ. And the part about wrath in eternity, I believe that because there is a certain amount of evil within all of us there must be a payment or sacrifice because of that evil. Also, somebody brought up respect for other religions. Sadly I cannnot respect another religion, however I do respect those people who practice and wholeheartedly choose their way, for I respect that they made the choice.

[deadnail]

You know... before King James people weren't allowed to read the bible. It was against the rules. People who tried to make public versions of the bible were burned alive.

Freedom of religion is a very important thing. People should be allowed to believe what they believe without persecution or bigotry. However, freedom of religion is NOT freedom from religion.

Freedom from religion is insane. That would mean that Athiests run the country and every religious group became segregated into their own little niche here. Asking for freedom from religion only shows your bigotry towards others with a different belief structure than your own. Let people worship as they please and don't in any way try to sabotage that.

So you're a Christian and accepting Christ is the best thing you can do on this earth. I'm glad you're such a happy camper, really. Good for you buddy. No, I'm not really interested, now would you get off my porch so I can go back to this bestiality I was watching?

So you're an Atheist and you vehemently deny any greater purpose to our being? Well that's super. I'm fucking overjoyed that you feel you know the truth.

No one belief, or lack of belief, takes precedence over any other.

The simple fact of the matter is that our country was founded by Christians. Christians who were persecuted. They created a country that eventually became a place that symbolizes freedom for the whole world. Worship as you please, think as you please. Don't forget why you have this right, and don't forget who gave it to you. If they want to put "JESUS IS NIFTY" on every one of their dollar bills well then so be it.

Denying yourself and removing all traces of religion from government sounds more unconstitutional than merely saying UNDER GOD.

It was written by Christians and although you may not be one you are in a land made by them and although you might take offense at it for some insecure reason have you forgotten that they allow you to think as you please?

How often has that happened in the world?

Look around. Freedom of thought and allowing common sense to seep into Christianity has done WONDERS for it over the last few centuries. If Christianity was in the same state it was before King James then England today would be executing people by gunshot to the face for infractions as the millitant Muslims do.

Maybe if we're lucky over the next 200-400 years some common sense will seep into the Middle East and they'll learn that:
. Shooting a woman for exposing her face is excessive.
. Beating a woman for walking alone is excessive.
. Burning a woman's clitoris off as soon as she's born so she can never feel sexual pleasure and thus will never cheat is more animal than human.
. Not everyone is a Muslim and not everyone is supposed to be a Muslim and the people that are not have an inherited right to exist without persecution or hatred.

[Captain Red]

deadnail said:
Maybe if we're lucky over the next 200-400 years some common sense will seep into the Middle East and they'll learn that:
. Shooting a woman for exposing her face is excessive.
. Beating a woman for walking alone is excessive.
. Burning a woman's clitoris off as soon as she's born so she can never feel sexual pleasure and thus will never cheat is more animal than human.
. Not everyone is a Muslim and not everyone is supposed to be a Muslim and the people that are not have an inherited right to exist without persecution or hatred.

For the record, only a Very small percenage of Muslim acully proform these pratices, and they are cositered Extremists by the majorty of the Muslim commity as a whole.

but I agree with your statement

[deadnail]

Ct_red_pants said:
For the record, only a Very small percenage of Muslim acully proform these pratices, and they are cositered Extremists by the majorty of the Muslim commity as a whole.

but I agree with your statement

I said Middle East, not all Muslims. I fully recognize that the core of evil Muslims is centrallized around the Middle East and that most Muslims are fine and dandy people.

Then again, no one here is talking about fine and dandy people all we talk about are extremists.

[Captain Red]

I said Middle East, not all Muslims. I fully recognize that the core of evil Muslims is centrallized around the Middle East and that most Muslims are fine and dandy people.

oh... my bad... But like i said: "For the record"

still, I think Afghanistan was the only contry were the pratices were required by Lore. I could be wrong.

[fodders]

Similar countries like Nigeria are as bad, they practice the Moslem Shari'a law

[Little Faith]

Once Europe was a backwards area plagued by religious terror.

Now it's the Middle East and North Africa. Next time the wind of change blows who's turn will it then be to be the great bogeyman? The US? Who knows.

[Doom-Child]

deadnail, once again you astound and amaze. Had I a hat, it would be in my lap (whatever the hell that means).

DC

[Sharessa]

Personaly, I don't care if anyone is practicing religion, under these circumstances:
1. They don't try to convert me...it will be 100% futile, and just be an anoyance to me and a waste of effort on their part.
2. They don't try to bring bodily harm to me or those I love in attempt to convert me or wipe out the 'heathens'...this has never actualy happened, but it would neither convert me, nor make them a better person.
3. They don't come to power then opress me for being atheistic...just any kind of opression over any kind of differences sucks.

And on a final note, the whole 'under god' thing will probably be overturned, so you religious people have nothing to worry about, k?