"Spyware" guys risking big $$ lawsuits

[Guest fragg]

The Register News story about "Black&White" game allegedly installing "spyware" in your PC (that sends reports back to the game Company).
Someone said it doesn't worry them as long as the spyware's not stealing passwords or software info from the PC.
Maybe some other guys, feel the same. I don't think most do.

I'd like to ask Questions.
Not to flame or fight, but just to get some answers.....

How do you KNOW the spyware isn't stealing passwords and software info and private info?
And what could you do, if it were?
If you reply "I'd delete it" (and then you do) how do you know a piece of it isn't hiding somewhere in all those Millions of lines of Windows code?
(Remember the virus-code that was reported to have done that?)
It might take a Computer guru or Windows Registry expert to eradicate spyware and KNOW its really gone.

IMO, anyone installing spyware in our PC's (without our permission) is running risk of major class-action lawsuits that could ruin their Company if they lost them.
Not sure, but there could even be possible criminal charges here in the US.

How so?
Because in US Constitution there's a Clause prohibiting "Unlawful SEARCH or SEIZURE of personal papers or effects".
It was one of very first things put in there 200 yrs ago by the Founding Fathers.
They wanted nobody --Nobody-- busily snooping around in your personal privacy.

These spyware guys are playing Russian Roulette with a loaded gun.
How so?
It's just a question of time, till some PC-owners get ticked off enough to go see a lawyer. And tell him what's happening.
(Watch the "$$-Signs" light up in that lawyer's eyes, as he computes his 1/3 to 1/2 cut of Mega$$ class-action lawsuit).

Yup, all these spyware guys should quit now while they're still ahead -- while they still got a job and a roof over their heads.
fragg

[NiGHTMARE]

The same fuss was being made a couple of years ago with some other game. I forget what it was, it might have been Starcraft but I'm not 100% sure. Anyway, nothing really happened then (except they removed the offending code) so I doubt anything will really happen now.

There's also the fact that the company who made it (who are British) aren't responsible for it being published in America. EA are, so they're most likely the ones who'd be sued.

EA have rapidly been turning into the bullies of the PC gaming industry in recent years, so I for one think it's about time something like this happened to them anyway...

[DeePsea]

I thought Black & White just verified your CD key(?). XP is going to do the same thing. In fact, all the big players are going to have an online database to prevent CD copying.

There is a big glitch we ran into with Black & White. It assumes (or looks for) Dialup networking. Well, on our latest XP install, we never touched that part of the system since it's cable. The game will lock up since it tries to dial out anyway. Finally trapped the "screen" and realized what was going on.

Pretty impressive game and good balance of gaming and some funny stuff the "animals" will do.

Since "spying" would get them in hot water, I doubt that it is. Just tapping the data transmissions would uncover that quickly.

[Guest pickle_hammer]

<fnord>fnord</fnord>

[Guest fragg]

NiGHTMARE said:

The same fuss was being made a couple of years ago with some other game. I forget what it was, it might have been Starcraft but I'm not 100% sure. Anyway, nothing really happened then (except they removed the offending code) so I doubt anything will really happen now.

There's also the fact that the company who made it (who are British) aren't responsible for it being published in America. EA are, so they're most likely the ones who'd be sued.

EA have rapidly been turning into the bullies of the PC gaming industry in recent years, so I for one think it's about time something like this happened to them anyway...

N/M, Apparently they're stonewalling the protests.
I think they're treading on thin ice.
See what it is, they're snooping for (see my reply to DEEP above).
I hope someone sues one of these spyware guys.

About EA .... Did you see the interview at Blues with Richard Garriot?
Now that his "silence period" is over, he talked about EA.
He was polite, but made no bones about fact that he never quit, never resigned from his company (Origin).
He was canned from it by EA, for arguing too much with EA top brass.
Canned -- from the company HE founded. Sheesh.
fragg

[danarchist]

Hey...how do we know if there isn't any 'spyware' in Windows...Bill Gates could be looking in at what we're doing right now as we speak!

P.S. Why the hell isn't there an automatic Message Title beyond 're(1):'? It's the Gates-monster I tell you!

[Guest fragg]

deepteam said:

I thought Black & White just verified your CD key(?). XP is going to do the same thing. In fact, all the big players are going to have an online database to prevent CD copying.

There is a big glitch we ran into with Black & White. It assumes (or looks for) Dialup networking. Well, on our latest XP install, we never touched that part of the system since it's cable. The game will lock up since it tries to dial out anyway. Finally trapped the "screen" and realized what was going on.

Pretty impressive game and good balance of gaming and some funny stuff the "animals" will do.

Since "spying" would get them in hot water, I doubt that it is. Just tapping the data transmissions would uncover that quickly.

Deep, Thanks for reply, but I'm not quite sure exactly where you stand on this.
You're under impression the game's not spying? That its only verifying your "CD key"?
I wasn't dead sure what to answer you, so I re-read the Article.
Here's some of what the News says the game is doing (the B&W forum's Gamers have their stories too)....

"Black&White sends information about your computer -- including IP number, Registry details, and Hardware configuration -- to a server run by the game's developer Lionhead, and to publisher Electronic Arts.... This heavy-handed anti-piracy feature is, in effect Spyware, critics argue .... And the game will try to establish an Internet connection when installed on a user's PC, even if it is not been run at the time....."

The Register said the company says this is not "Spying", its only "Awareness".
So Register made repeated phone calls to Company to ask them a Question:
"Please explain exactly what is the difference between your "Awareness" -- and just plain old "Spying?"
The Company never called back.
That boils me, I hope it does you guys too.

About XP: Yes, I've been reading forum posts about the Win-XP outrage.
(Check some heated ones out, at www.tech-report.com).
MS is getting a black eye.
The tech editor there says Billy can keep his snooping Win-XP.
fragg

[Guest fragg]

danarchist said:

Hey...how do we know if there isn't any 'spyware' in Windows...Bill Gates could be looking in at what we're doing right now as we speak!

P.S. Why the hell isn't there an automatic Message Title beyond 're(1):'? It's the Gates-monster I tell you!

Dan, from what I've been hearing if you buy WindowsXP, you have Billy Boy in your computer spying.
That is, unless he backs off on his plan to implement Copy Protection that requires his headquarters to actually activate WinXP before you can use it.
But, he's getting tons o'heat over this, so we'll see.
I know I won't buy it.
fragg

[Guest fragg]

pickle_hammer said:

<fnord>fnord</fnord>

Pickle, are you a Dill?
fragg

[Lüt]

fragg said:

I know I won't buy it.

The fact that it requires 32MB and recommends 64MB of video memory should be a good enough reason for you not to buy it.

[esco]

pickle_hammer said:

<fnord>fnord</fnord>

Ay yo, just so everyone out there in doomworld knows... pickle hammer is right, I do suck...

I SUCKED on da tits of da last girl he liked a lot...
I licked and SUCKED on his fine lookin' cousin's clit...
and I plucked, fucked, AND SUCKED his moms like she was a ripe cherry dat just fell of da tree!

Dat's right, pickle mallet, I AM YO REAL DADDY!! AAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHH, HA, HA, HA, HA, HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!

...............

Aight, dat's enough shit! Pickle lamer you is a bitch ass nigga, just like yo fnord sayin' is whack as fuck, plain and simple! Shut yo hoe up, before I lay da smack down on ya... NY STYLE!!!!


P.S. yo sir fragsalot, I hope you don't take nuthin' in dis post as disrespect, seein' how pickle wacker is yo brotha, and all!

P.P.S. OH, and one more thing, pickle smacker... DO ME AND ALL OF DOOMWORLD A FAVOR AND GO DA HELL AWAY!! Yo ain't funny at all, and just about nobody up in dis piece likes yo punk ass!!

[Jon]

fragg said:

How do you KNOW the spyware isn't stealing passwords and software info and private info?

You could monitor every transmitted packet and scan for passwords and other info.

[AdamW]

fragg said:

N/M, Apparently they're stonewalling the protests.
I think they're treading on thin ice.
See what it is, they're snooping for (see my reply to DEEP above).
I hope someone sues one of these spyware guys.

About EA .... Did you see the interview at Blues with Richard Garriot?
Now that his "silence period" is over, he talked about EA.
He was polite, but made no bones about fact that he never quit, never resigned from his company (Origin).
He was canned from it by EA, for arguing too much with EA top brass.
Canned -- from the company HE founded. Sheesh.
fragg

You know that bit in the middle of any game installation, where fifty three pages of tiny text calling themselves a licensing agreement or something pop up and you hit yes without even pausing? Ten to one there's a sentence on page 38 saying "I agree to allow the software to transmit certain details to the publisher" or something along those lines. Caveat emptor, i'm afraid.

[NiGHTMARE]

esco said:

Ay yo, just so everyone out there in doomworld knows... pickle hammer is right, I do suck...

I SUCKED on da tits of da last girl he liked a lot...
I licked and SUCKED on his fine lookin' cousin's clit...
and I plucked, fucked, AND SUCKED his moms like she was a ripe cherry dat just fell of da tree!

Dat's right, pickle mallet, I AM YO REAL DADDY!! AAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHH, HA, HA, HA, HA, HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!

...............

Aight, dat's enough shit! Pickle lamer you is a bitch ass nigga, just like yo fnord sayin' is whack as fuck, plain and simple! Shut yo hoe up, before I lay da smack down on ya... NY STYLE!!!!


P.S. yo sir fragsalot, I hope you don't take nuthin' in dis post as disrespect, seein' how pickle wacker is yo brotha, and all!

P.P.S. OH, and one more thing, pickle smacker... DO ME AND ALL OF DOOMWORLD A FAVOR AND GO DA HELL AWAY!! Yo ain't funny at all, and just about nobody up in dis piece likes yo punk ass!!

This isn't intended as another argument, but could you please tone your language down a bit? There are young 'uns who visit this site you know. Thanks.

[DeePsea]

fragg said:

If it does do what you claim, then I too would agree with you.

I don't mind the CD key verify, but beyond that is pushing my buttons too:))

[DeePsea]

AdamW said:

You know that bit in the middle of any game installation, where fifty three pages of tiny text calling themselves a licensing agreement or something pop up and you hit yes without even pausing? Ten to one there's a sentence on page 38 saying "I agree to allow the software to transmit certain details to the publisher" or something along those lines. Caveat emptor, i'm afraid.

It's a common misconception that if a contract says something it's binding. That's not always so if it violates the law.

For example, if one signed something that says you are to give up your 1st born if you make a copy of a CD, would that stick??

So the question still is: is the thing they are doing LEGAL (doesn't matter what the license says).

(I don't know if it is, however, it does sound borderline).

[Guest fragg]

Jon said:

You could monitor every transmitted packet and scan for passwords and other info.

Jon, thanks. I didn't know that till someone here in this thread told me.
If you did what you say, (monitor for transmissions) and found "funny business" going on, you'd have that spyware guy right over a barrel, at your mercy.
He'd have to prove you gave him permission, or some court judge gave him permission.
Otherwise, his rear-end is yours and your lawyer's <g>).
fragg

[Guest fragg]

Lüt said:

The fact that it requires 32MB and recommends 64MB of video memory should be a good enough reason for you not to buy it.

Heh, heh -- well put!!

[Guest fraggle`]

Jon said:

You could monitor every transmitted packet and scan for passwords and other info.

Some intrusion detection systems monitor for suspicious network traffic (which could indicate viruses or backdoors running). I believe this is how some of the spyware has been detected.

There is spyware in several common programs (Comet cursors and Go!Zilla to name a couple). Some guy has kindly developed a program which removes a number of common spyware libraries from your computer: http://grc.com/optout.htm

[Guest fragg]

AdamW said:

You know that bit in the middle of any game installation, where fifty three pages of tiny text calling themselves a licensing agreement or something pop up and you hit yes without even pausing? Ten to one there's a sentence on page 38 saying "I agree to allow the software to transmit certain details to the publisher" or something along those lines. Caveat emptor, i'm afraid.

Adam thanx for input. I never thot of that. These worms cover their bases, don't they?
Something like what you refer to was causing big trouble to MS all over the internet last week.

It seems when you sign up for Outlook Express (Microsofts e-mail service that comes with Win95 and Win98) you click on the "yes" button (in answer to all those pages of questions it asks you).
Anyway, some computer gurus, and lawyer-types, carefully read ALL those fancy words.

And found out that by clicking on "Yes" -- you were giving MS permission to keep, and post, and give to other partys, and publish (if they want to) -- ANY and ALL info you send via MS Outlook Express.
(Even, if it's your Company's valuable business plans and confidential Company info). Wow!!

When they went "public" with their findings -- the STUFF "hit the fan" big time all over the Net.
(Check out the major news sites recent archives, if you doubt this).
So now Billy Boy has "modified" the language of the Agreement you have to click "Yes" on. (Err, that is, he has "somewhat" modified it).

Bottom Line:
I won't trust anything valuable, personal or confidential to MS Outlook Express in the future.
I'll send it by another e-mail service that specifically agrees not to pull that Billy Boy stunt. Fortunately most bis e-mail services agree not to.
(Sorry for the long post).
fragg

[Guest fragg]

fraggle` said:

Some intrusion detection systems monitor for suspicious network traffic (which could indicate viruses or backdoors running). I believe this is how some of the spyware has been detected.

There is spyware in several common programs (Comet cursors and Go!Zilla to name a couple). Some guy has kindly developed a program which removes a number of common spyware libraries from your computer: http://grc.com/optout.htm

Thanks. I'll save that info. BTW, there are already software proggies waiting for when WinXP comes out.
These proggies designed by hackers will "short-circuit" all that XP "activation" crap. (So they claim, anyway).
fragg

[Guest deathwarrior]

pickle_hammer said:

<fnord>fnord</fnord>

"<macvilewhore> hehe GRRRRRR *FNord*"

a priceless moment.