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Timothy McVeigh and US Terrorism

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[Yes, I do know that this is 100% completely unrelated to Doom. However, I want to know what some of your opinions on the matter are. If you don't care then feel free to flame me. =]

Ruby Ridge. The FBI kills a family of people because of their huge collection of guns. In reality, the man inherited the guns and planned on selling them for a profit.

Waco, Texas. A cult of religious fanatics are holed up in a compound, armed to the teeth. A true military presence is established around them (police with military supplies and training, even tanks were brought in). Janet Reno PERSONALLY approved the use of Military Gas for the seige. Military Gas is basically tear gas with a few exceptions... it doesn't cost as much, and it's very prone to start fires (that's why we have Tear Gas for use in buildings).

The day after the seige I saw a film clip of a gas bomb flying through a window, seconds later flames were billowing out. I haven't seen that film clip since.

A 911 call was released years later from someone in the compound, basically she was screaming that the police were shooting them. They weren't returning fire, at least not at first. People who tried to run from the flames were cut down by sharpshooters.

Everyone who survived was sentenced and jailed by the judge, AGAINST the jury's recommendation that they be set free.

If they're crazy religious freaks they should go to a mental facility for de-programming, not jail.

Simple answer? We firebombed them and shot them as they tried to run in terror. The people that survived? We locked them up to shut them up.

McVeigh (sp?) is a Gulf War veteran who has seen first hand what we do to other countries. Our growing militant actions against our own people is what he was protesting, in quite possibly the WORST way he could.

Let me state that I abhor what he did; those people were innocent.

However, many people are calling him 'Hitler'. Many people have just TOTALLY missed the fucking point he tried to crater into your head.

What does this cause? ANOTHER bombing, that's what it causes.

If you are going to compare McVeigh to ANYONE in the WWII era you can compare him to the Allied Forces, bombing the oppresive government.

Who's the one lining people up and executing them with no reason?
Who's the one bombing them in opposition?

Dislike it all you want but that's the truth.

McVeigh's (completely misunderstood) point he was trying to make is that the people of the US should *NOT* quietly accept our government's *criminal* activities.

People fucked up. Janet Reno and the BATF especially.
These people have not been punished.
In fact, the agents responsible for the... SHOOTING GALLERY that was Waco were actually commended and even given pay bonuses!

The person that was running that show (Reno), should be tried for the 1st degree murder of those people. It's fucking rediculous.

It's important that we understand WHY McVeigh killed those people. He was trying to open our eyes.

The reason I'm saying this is because of the News the last few days. McVeigh wrote a letter to Foxnews (which you can read at http://www.foxnews.com) to clarify his point. I suggest you read it.

After reading it, listen to people calling everything from insane to Hitler. Listen to people arguing his point, listen to people practically BEGGING for another bombing!

You don't have to agree with McVeigh.
You shouldn't like how he made his point.
You SHOULD understand WHY he did it.

Apparantly no one does, and all that will accomplish is provoke another unstable person to reiterate it in an explosive manner.

I'm curious as to non-US opinions of this matter. What has been reported to YOU by your local news?

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I've heard little about the Waco Texas thing...
I thought nearly everyone was evacuated, then a few men remained inside with weapons.

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Yeh the US Justice system sucks, he is guilty of murder, why can't we ALL watch it live on TV as he twitches and screams as the poison hits his liver?

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Guest kickmeplz

So you're supporting an angry white supremacist nut that bombed a building with people who had nothing to do with the past two occurances that offended him? Please. If he had hit Janet's house or the BATF instead of a bunch of people who knew nothing about Waco and Ruby Ridge, I'd agree with you partially.

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Guest c-d-w

Koresh was clearly insane, especially towards the end. He Killed 4 BATF agents and wounded a fair amount too (before the standoff). He then proceeded to ass-fuck the FBI for 3 months, during which, a lot of branch davidians actually left the compound. Anyone who was stupid enough to stay inside (children excepted) deserved what they got. Most of the children died from the smoke caused by the davidians burning their own compound down. Christ, the feds did everything short of chugging his manchowder, and Koresh still wouldn't cooperate ("I have to wait until God tells me what to do!").
Don't get me started on the allegations of the sexual abuse he was enforcing on 12 - 14 year olds as well.

I agree the actual agents on the scene for three months were less than smart, playing loud music and constantly cutting the power to the place, but come on.

Koresh was a pussy hiding behind children and bible passages. There's no way he should have lasted as long as he did. Reno did what she should have. It wasn't getting any better, and the FBI didn't have the resources to sit and wait for a year or so before Koresh's supplies ran out.
Unlike the victims of McVeigh's bombing, any civilians within the branch davidian compound really "shouldn't have been there in the first place". If you choose to follow a madman, that's you're own problem.. deal with the consequences.

How is it a "fuck up" to stop a group of (insane), heavily armed people with the intent to cause trouble? That's what law enforcement is for. They did their job.

Ruby ridge on the other hand... that was embarrasing. FBI snipers kill a white supremacist's wife, child and pet, and it turns out the guy was innocent of all charges. The sniper did get a murder charge though.

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Guest kickmeplz

And some conservatives are still whining about Waco, which was about a rabid Anti-Semite who pissed off the government. What, they don't like the fact that one of their cronies who are fighting against freedom have been killed?

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Come on, man. You really think that Timothy McVeigh felt THAT strongly about Waco to nearly obliterate a building, taking 168 lives and wounding hundreds more? It's clear that he's just using that as an excuse to carry out his own little psychotic plans. What's more, I disagree with how Waco ended, but for different reasons. They were holed up in there with illegal weapons and firing at the agents, and the idiotic government let this circus go on for as long as it did. If it hadn't been a cult, and the people had been a bunch of minorities, you know they would have just gone in there the first day guns blazing and kill every single one of them. Of course, I'm not condoning mass-slaughterings, but the FBI really shouldn't have let it go on as long as it did. It conveys the message, "Hey terrorists. As long as you claim you don't like the government and are white, we'll give you a fighting chance." Also, the whole tear gas thing is just ridiculous. I don't really have too much information, but so far I have been unable to find any evidence that tear gas and military gas are different, but I had always assumed that regular tear gas was flammable. Anyways, the whole thing was an accident (if you can even prove that the tear gas even made it into the complex, I've seen reports that suggest otherwise), and a bad call made by someone in charge. It's not like that's the first time anybody in power has ever made a bad call regarding a tense situation or anything, I think we can let that slide. Another thing is, if the compound hadn't caught on fire, how much longer would it have gone on? A month? A year? What do you think should have been done? Just leave the nutty cult people alone? If it hadn't been Waco, Timothy McVeigh would have just come up with some other pathetic reason for committing such a terrible crime, so I frankly don't give a **** about why he did it. And as far as the execution goes, forget it. I'm disgusted enough that the death penalty exists in the first place, but come on, people actually want to WATCH him die? I seriously think that these people are mentally unstable and disturbed (as they well should be, after going through something as terrible as the bombing), and should seek medical attention to correct these problems. What next, Roman Gladiator battles? I would also like to take the time to attack the concept of keeping guns (I know your opinions on this, Deadnail, but I don't really care). Nobody needs to have that many ******* guns at all. There is no reason that is not either insane or highly unlikely. There are only three reasons for owning a gun, all of which are not exactly the best excuses. People own guns to either kill people or animals, or defend themselves. Now of course killing people is obviously wrong, and in my opinion killing animals is wrong, because they haven't done anything to deserve to die, and there's no point to it other than sport (I know some people hunt for food, but that's the exception, not the rule), which is really sick and demented. Finally we come to the people who wish to defend themselves. That should be left to the police or other trained professionals. Cases of people successfully using guns in self-defense are extremely rare, and far more common are cases of people accidently killing their own family with it (5-year-old finds the gun in the drawer, or kid is mistaken for a prowler and blasted, ect). The risks outweigh the benefits too greatly for anybody to justify having a gun. Of course, I guess since I'm a hippie tree-hugging radical left-wing liberal, my opinions don't matter, so I'm just gonna leave it at that,

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99.8% of all guns owned LEGALLY will never be used in a crime, and that includes accidents. Whether or not you own a gun your kid is more likely to hurt himself fatally on his bicycle.

People owning guns isn't the problem you speak of, irresponsible ownership is. Since gunsafes and free locks are so readily available the problem is almost nonexistant.

Some 2 million people defend their homes from intrusion every year with a gun.

Will I ever own a pistol? Probably not. I have no need for one whatsoever. Pistols were designed to kill people, I have no use for that. I do own a shotgun, though. I'd like to see YOU reason with a pissed off Wolverine on your porch! =) Damn Michigan...

If people want a gun and have the responsiblity to own it I see no problem with that. If someone wants to own 500 assault rifles, well, that's just fucked up.

Radical is the term usually used by the left on the right. We usually call ultra-liberals 'knee-jerk' instead. Sorry if I took your patronization of me too seriously.

Oh, and apparantly people don't listen:
1) I don't like McVeigh, what he did was retarded.
2) I don't like the Waco guy either, he did a LOT of retarded things.
3) I can understand a shootout with heavily armed religious nuts. Firebombing them is something different.

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