Editor Wish List

[tom]

I think one of the main things (aside from how old doom is) that puts most people off doom editing these days is the lack of a really really good editor. One that has all the positive features of the current crop, is easy to use but also efficient and runs under win32 and linux/x. What features would everyone like to see in an uber editor? My personal number one is an instant preview mode (like duke3d's build editor) which wouldn't be too hard to do with the game engine sources available.

[jon^c]

Yeah, I want an uncrappy wadauthor damnit. That saves EVERY time, and doesnt bitch when i paste. Thats my wish. Oh yeah and that preview thing. That would be 1337 juI(Y 114m4 5hI7 d00d.

[AndrewB]

DeePsea has a 3D walkthrough mode. Although primitive looking, you can make out the dimensions pretty well. As for making something like Build's 3D preview mode, it's not as easy as it sounds. Even with the sources, you'd have to build something directly into DOOM. After all, Build isn't a third party level editor. Its walkthrough pretty much uses the Duke3D engine, anyway. So, while it is a neat idea, it's been considered, and it's not something that could work very well.. :-b

[Guest cocoon]

Well, if a smooth editor used dck's ways of creating sectors/lines/nodes i would be very happy. That is the only reason why I don't switch to another one.

double-click (node) move cursor to new location, double-click (now you've got a line and two nodes), etc. until you reach your start/end node. Whoop the sector is done. I love it!

Ok maybe i need a few more of dck's features. The ultimate editor for me would be a bugfree, win98 version of dck. DCK 4.00, DCK98

[DeePsea]

Uh, DCK does not work the way you describe. Nodes are NOT part of editing - nodes are a whole different animal. DeePsea indeed draws just like DCK (no double clicking though, just click and draw the lines). In addition you can cross lines and have the lines automatically split on the intersection (an option). DeePsea is a Windows9x/NT program (sorry Linux). The latest new tool addition also totally replaces Wintex/NWT.

[Guest cocoon]

yeah you are right, I am always refering to them using the wrong term: vertices! Nothing else

[AndrewB]

... But if you really want a level editor like you describe, are you sure it isn't worth the registration price? There aren't a lot of options out there.

[tom]

I think that charging for a doom editor is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of. The game is five years old, is now open source and yet there are still some people who want to make money from the rest of us. Get with the programme.

[AndrewB]

But hey, if the demand is high enough, why not? It's not like there's only a couple dozen people who've registered it. More like three thousand, right? :-b

[Cyb]

AndrewB said:

DeePsea has a 3D walkthrough mode. Although primitive looking, you can make out the dimensions pretty well. As for making something like Build's 3D preview mode, it's not as easy as it sounds. Even with the sources, you'd have to build something directly into DOOM. After all, Build isn't a third party level editor. Its walkthrough pretty much uses the Duke3D engine, anyway. So, while it is a neat idea, it's been considered, and it's not something that could work very well.. :-b

Uh, first off, the reason for walkthrough in editors for games like Q2, Half-Life and so on, is because the level takes forever to compile and that game takes quite long to start up. Compiling a map and then having to recompile the damn thing because you forgot to align a texture is a pain the the ass.

Doom on the other hand takes three seconds to start up, and levels take much less time to compile. Stop yet bitchin heheh.

Deep I have used before, and it's a pretty nice editor, but screw paying the registration fee. That's more money than Doom costs now. Something's wrong there if you ask me.

Yeah yeah, I know, programming is a job, blah, blah, blah, but if you want to make some damn money make an editor for a modern game so more people register it. Look at all the people screwing with the Doom source. Under the GPL they could make a new game if they wanted and sell it.

Yeah a Doom engine game would be a tad outdated, wouldn't it? Who'd pay for that. I dunno, same people who shell out 30 bucks for a Doom level editor I guess.

And in case you were wondering, there's no such thing as a stable level editor, for any game. It's not just Doom. We've lived with what we've had for this long, I'm sure everything will be okay.

[AndrewB]

I've had a few illegal operations performed in my DeePsea, but it's still darn stable. As for screwing with the source... Screwing with the source isn't the same thing as making a quality level editor. Besides, the number of people around the DOOM community who actually know how to "screw with the source" is a bit overestimated, if you ask me..

[AndrewB]

Cyb said:

Oh, and that's true.. If they wanted to make money, this isn't how they'd go about doing it. That's why I say they're not in it to make money. They're doing it because they want to make a darn good DOOM level editor. What? You think this is all they do? Do you think DeePsea is their entire business?! I myself don't believe that's the case..

[tom]

AndrewB said:

But hey, if the demand is high enough, why not? It's not like there's only a couple dozen people who've registered it. More like three thousand, right? :-b

I find that figure impossible to believe. Look how many people bought hacx.

[AndrewB]

Well, I don't think they would lie about it.

[makron]

Hey i found something cool in dck v3.62, If you set it up for
hexen using the zwdhack.wad file for zdoom as the hexen IWAD
it will let you load zdoom maps in the editor but it says all the zdoom specials are invalid, and the palette is screwed.
But surely as dck supports hexen it could possibly suppport
zdoom as well as that would make it an excellent editor,
as well as a win32 version and a built in scripting utility
like wadauthor.

just my opinion.

[tom]

AndrewB said:

Well, I don't think they would lie about it.

Why the hell not? Seems like an easy way to promote sales.

[DeePsea]

Cyb said:

Let's clarify a few things.

1. Do you really think you can "sell" a DOOM derived from the released source code?

2. A walkthrough would be cool - not a pressing issue for the reasons you gave - but if I get a hair I'll do it.

3. People still have to pay for DOOM. Isn't that odd that id still charges for that game. Damn, id should post the game for free after all the money they made (like $$ millions).

4. "Modern" games either have a boatload of "free" editors that ship with the game or other sources. In addition, QuakeX is a magnitude more difficult to edit (vs DOOM) that the number of people doing same is very tiny. There is no market there at all ( or too tiny to consider). FYI, I have a DOOM->QuakeX converter, but decided the utilities would cause me way too much support (related to Quake quirks). The Quake maps at our site were actually made with DeePsea.

5. There is NO game -yet- that has the following of DOOM for making new levels.

6. Games are not stable, drivers are not stable, windows is not stable. So anything that "lives" in such an environment gets hosed by the surroundings.

7. There's something wrong with the general mentality about software. Work is work. Do you work for nothing even though you've been doing it for xxxx years? Even if you like your job?

8. DeePsea has about 6mb of source code vs 2.5mb for ZDOOM 1.22 (sometimes I read 4.5mb but that's not true).

And in case you were wondering, something is indeed wrong here. What does "lived with what we've had" mean? Umm, so whatever one grew up with is OK - no change, no improvement? Interesting insight into how some people push illogical concepts as if they make sense. Well damn, then Wolf3D - no wait - Pong - is all they should play.

Over the years, similar arguments pops up over and over - even way back. Just amazes me! One can never "win" these things since it's not a logical argument. In person I doubt the comment would even be made - the anonimity factor makes for interesting online discussions - but not valid ones.

Later

[DeePsea]

tom said:

I find that figure impossible to believe. Look how many people bought hacx.

Impossible to believe? DeeP has been around for a long time, first as a DOS, DPMI and then Windows. The number of registered users over the years is at least 3000 - anyway it fills a filing cabinet.

DeeP has a lot of firsts - copied by others - in particular the graphical feedback was my own pet peeve with all the editors out in the DEU days (now there's a dinosaur that some still use). Geez - I wanted to see the textures and sprites - not some dumb name. As you can plainly see, many other coders thought the same and followed the path set by DeeP.

DeePBSP was the first nodebuilder that tooks less than a minute on large levels when it was not uncommon for it to take 5 minutes - and then they often failed (on 486s of course). It was called Tbsp on it's first release. I also got sick and tired of that problem - hence the nodebuilder was the very first program I did.

DeePsea has many unique and exclusive features that can't be duplicated even with all the other odds and ends in the world:) That's why people still register it - to make level building more fun.

Impossible? Nope.

[Linguica]

As wonderful as all of that is, please stop advertising your product on these forums unless you're going to give me a share of any money you make because of it :P

[Guest cocoon]

DeePTeam said:

What does "lived with what we've had" mean? Umm, so whatever one grew up with is OK - no change, no improvement?Interesting insight into how some people push illogical concepts as if they make sense

I am getting real sick of reading about how great deepsea is. I have it insatlled but I still use dck in dosmode for all my editing. It has simply got more usable features. Sure, deepsea has some eyecandy but what good does that do?

"no change, no improvement" bah! I don't even want to argue. You simply think that deepsea is the best editor out there so are you any different? I can't read it from any of your posts... We all have opinions. I mean what tastes the best: coca-cola or pepsi?

dck baby, the easiest one

[AndrewB]

Well, DeePsea is definitely the best, most powerful editor out there. There's really no doubt about that. The learning curve may be a little rough. I'm sure DCK is easier to learn than DeeP, but hey! Making levels isn't about learning how to use the editor, it's about having learned how to use the editor, and then making levels. So maybe DeePsea isn't easy to learn. After having learned how to use both DCK and DeePsea, I find DeePsea is definitely the easiest to use. Mostly because of its special features. Hey, if there was a WinDCK out there, I would have most likely never bought DeeP97. But hey, if you're satisfied with DCK, or any other editor you may be using, then I see no reason for you to register DeePsea. I wanted a DCK-quality editor, that ran in Windows. That's all. :I

[tom]

Linguica said:

As wonderful as all of that is, please stop advertising your product on these forums unless you're going to give me a share of any money you make because of it :P

Yeah, the deep advertising is exactly the same as reol's retardedness. Except that deep's actually sold for a profit, which makes it worse.

[Lüt]

You guys is whack. All anybody needs is a stable version of WadEd that doesn't ruin everything you try and do. DeeP is nice for some touchups and a few error checks but that's all it's worth. Drawing stuff is nearly impossible with it.

[DeePsea]

Linguica said:

As wonderful as all of that is, please stop advertising your product on these forums unless you're going to give me a share of any money you make because of it :P

Interesting comment - what exactly do all those ad banners on these pages have to with Doom? What is with all that advertising? Is somebody actually making money from people visiting this site?

For shame for shame. Is this going to be one of those censored sites where you end up deleting the obvious? I sincerely hope not.

P.S. What share do you want? Is there a rate on Doomworld?

[AndrewB]

tom said:

Yeah, the deep advertising is exactly the same as reol's retardedness. Except that deep's actually sold for a profit, which makes it worse.

Tsk, oh don't be so stingey.. You think talking about DeeP is more retarded than King REoL posting gory pictures, and then whining about his first amendment after being banned for having posting such gruesome photos? Besides.. Who started this topic, anyway?

[stphrz]

Mantra said:

Yeah, I want an uncrappy wadauthor damnit. That saves EVERY time, and doesnt bitch when i paste. Thats my wish. Oh yeah and that preview thing. That would be 1337 juI(Y 114m4 5hI7 d00d.

This is gonna sound really wierd but, WadAuthor has not crashed on me since I installed IE5 about a month ago. Believe me, I have tried to make it crash to no avail. It has not screwed up in any way shape or form. I haven't even recieved an illegal operation error. Not once. I even tried cut and pasting Sudden Death. The whole goddamn level! Flawless. I then scaled it 115% and rotated it 45 degrees. Perfect.(Well the flats got misaligned).
No more problems with saving either. I don't know WTF is going on, but I sure like it :)

[AndrewB]

That's great!! There must be some connection.. But, yeeechh!! Is it really worth installing IE5?! Ppttthhhfff, yuck.. :p

[tom]

AndrewB said:

Tsk, oh don't be so stingey.. You think talking about DeeP is more retarded than King REoL posting gory pictures, and then whining about his first amendment after being banned for having posting such gruesome photos? Besides.. Who started this topic, anyway?

Not the pictures thing, just the general bragging. By all means make a positive contribution but don't advertise your own editor in order to make money.

[tom]

DeePTeam said:

Interesting comment - what exactly do all those ad banners on these pages have to with Doom? What is with all that advertising? Is somebody actually making money from people visiting this site?

For shame for shame. Is this going to be one of those censored sites where you end up deleting the obvious? I sincerely hope not.

P.S. What share do you want? Is there a rate on Doomworld?

You think that servers and bandwidth come free?

[Mordeth]

DeePTeam said:

Interesting comment - what exactly do all those ad banners on these pages have to with Doom? What is with all that advertising? Is somebody actually making money from people visiting this site?

For shame for shame. Is this going to be one of those censored sites where you end up deleting the obvious? I sincerely hope not.

P.S. What share do you want? Is there a rate on Doomworld?

Now, now... no need to get cranky guys. What Linguica means is that you're mentioning your own product in every post you make here. That is not "forbidden" but some people might find that a bit annoying, just like they might be annoyed if I were to mention my own TC in all my posts.

So, no, he is not actually asking you for a share of your profits. We don't do that sort of thing here.