Deep Importing?

[Wildman]

Well, I have tried this several times with no luck at all. I had a set of graphics that I imported into the patch section of the wad, however they don't show up in the pnames so I can't create the textures (they don't show up in the Texture name dialog).

I tried to export a wad with these textures, but the existing textures were wiped out because the pnames and textures names were relaced instead of merged.

In Wintex I can simply merge two wads together and the pnames and texture names are automatically updated. How come I can't simply merge wads together in Deep? I tried the Group save with the same result: all my existing textures were wiped out.

I really think that if this is supposed to replace Wintex, it needs to have similiar functionality. I could simply be doing something wrong. However, I spent an hour reading the help file and frankly it isn't helpful at all and I think I know a litle something about creating tutorials and help files. I have registered the program as I want to use it mainly because Wintex doesn't support ZDoom and I wanted to do a series of tutorials using Deep. However, if it doesn't work what is the point?

Please feel free to educate me.

[stphrz]

Well Rick, If you can't seem to figure out what the problem is, there isn't much hope for the rest of us :) I was actually thinking of giving Deepsea a try. But now I think I'll wait and see what this thread turns up in the way of a solution. Besides all the trouble I was having with WadAuthor seems to have mysteriously vanished lately. No more crashes :)

[AndrewB]

I haven't gotten around to installing my new version yet, so I can't be sure what you're talking about. Still, yes.. If it's going to completely replace NWT/Wintex, then it really should replace it!!

[AndrewB]

Did you actually register DeePsea, BTW?

[DeePsea]

The help very carefully explains inner details, however it's not in the IMPORT help section for reasons that I'll explain. It also discusses how that the AUTHOR is primarily in control - not DeePsea. The problem with reading a NEW approach is that the human brain interprets using old information. (A more common example is the still prevalent misunderstanding of "sectors" after all these years.) The topics starting with "Graphics" cover most of this territory - not just the help on Importing.

You may know this, but it helps to review the Windows control mechanisms a bit, since the ability to select multiple files at once (and jump around selecting parts here and there), requires the ctrl+mouse click key. Most people know the shift+cursor (or mouse drag)method of selecting multiple entries - but not the ctrl thing. So unlike Wintex you can import ALL the parts and pieces from all over the places all at once (more like NWT here). Plus you can readily edit/delete/rename the lump names before importing (or also easily after importing).

Pnames and importing are TWO (2) different things. The help explains exactly what to do - maybe I need some more stuff in there and expand on it though - more a link or reference to what follows.

Unlike Wintex, which presumes IT knows what it's doing and assigns rules to names, DeePsea assumes the author knows what they are doing and with the exception of level names, doesn't care about the name or content of any file. (DeePsea is more like NWT in assuming a high degree of knowledge by the user.)

It's duck simple. Import is just that, nothing more nothing less. It takes a bunch of files and puts them all together. There is no prerequisite for it to be a graphic. PNAMES (and TEXTURE1/TEXTURE2) are completely different animals.

IOW, importing is not related to PNAMES per se. Just like Exporting is just exporting.

Wintex does what it does since Wintex can't add new entries to Pnames - it's inherently not a "better" way to do it - just what he choose.

1. First off, reset all files so you clear any other files you may have loaded (DeePsea, aggregates files much like DOOM does with the -file command, so this is just to make sure you start clean.)

2. Next OPEN the new file you created with IMPORTING, that loads the file. How else will DeePsea know where the new graphics are?

3. Select Texture Edit from the F7 dialog.

4. Add whatever graphic you want to the PNAMES - a graphic is -not- required to be a PNAMES entry, since it can be a sprite, etc. IOW, the user always has to create this entry one way or another. Again, NWT users would relate better here.

5. Save and create new TEXTURE/PNAMES file (I'm assuming you are making new textures - otherwise this is not required). This MERGES (using your old terminology) any existing TEXTURE/PNAMES and presto you have a new combined one.

The TEXTUREx/PNAME control saved is an independent entity and does NOT destroy your current control set. This is quite different from either Wintex or NWT.

Now, where do you want the new control elements? There are 2 methods. With the IMPORT file you created? Easy, select IMPORT again, select the same Target, now ADD this new TEXTURE/PNAMES file.

You could also have used the GROUP command and automatically add it, all the textures you just loaded, and any files and presto done.

The example you chose, made the common human mistake of presuming the rules of some other program and applying them to DeePsea (I do that all the time myself). What you describe is fairly rare and relates back to how you have learned to do something.

I expanded instead on areas that are frequently done and making them extremely flexible and easy to do - like moving lumps around, renaming them, inserting control entries (again something the user has to be familiar with). This makes it open to ANY future port that may arise using WAD structures.

PS: No one ever asked for TEXTUREx/PNAMES merging and almost everything is done on request. There are quite a few large projects using DeePsea - but they always start with NEW elements and selectively create new data. I also selectively choose what I want in a project and not just mass merge stuff. So perhaps, this is a reflection of style that I've just not come across.

Also, DeePsea is significantly different from WadAuthor - with much finer control. Most details are way diffent from the way you do it with WadAuthor. For example, to make a line join in the middle of another line, just drag the vertex over on top of the line.

[DeePsea]

AndrewB said:

I haven't gotten around to installing my new version yet, so I can't be sure what you're talking about. Still, yes.. If it's going to completely replace NWT/Wintex, then it really should replace it!!

Don't worry, it completely replaces it - but just like Wintex is not NWT (and visa versa), DeePsea is not either of those:)

What I suggest to those who have questions is to write to me. As you well know, it's not unusual for people to ask for a feature that already exists:) And you also know that changes are made according to same questions.

There's always room for change.

[Grul]

DeePTeam said:

This post easily takes the record of longest post ever on these forums... :) Congratulations.

[Wildman]

DeePTeam said:

First, I apologise for sounding so harsh. That was just my frustration. As many of you know, I usually try to support those in the community, but my frustration got the better of me. I appreciate the detailed reply. You are right: I am going to have to rethink how I am doing things. I did read the help file but didn't glean the information you posted here. It may have been because the terminology is different.

Andrew, yes I did register the program. I registered an older version of Deep, pre-ZDoom, and found it to be quite a good editor and more feature rich then WadAuthor. However, when my computer went south I lost the installation files and my registration. I thought that since all the new features have been added, I would get the new version.

I will say that the DeepSea team is very responsive and it is nice to have at least one group still working with the Doom community.

I keep thinking I will move on from Doom but this is really the only FPS game out there that is growing and evolving. I don't consider doing bot/dm only games much of an advance even if they are pretty to look at. Lets face it: an FPS is an FPS. They only real difference between Q+ and (Z)Doom is the high-res graphics. 3D is in Doom now with EDGE and rorDoom, and I expect hi-res is just around the corner.

Why go anywhere else? So I keep coming back to Doom and keep exploring those areas I haven't explored yet. I expect Doom to outlive all the Quakes and Unreals and whatever else in next on the agenda.

[AndrewB]

That's interesting. Still, to say that a FPS is a FPS is kind of a little inaccurate, in my opinion. DOOM is pretty much the easiest game out there to edit and make levels for. Unreal claims to have the easiest-to-use editor out there, but that's silly. You simply can't achieve as easy editing as DOOM when you're using polygons and brushes. Even I once tried doing Quake levels using a program called Thred. Thred, as in 3-D. Nope, there's simply no comparison.

[myk]

Wildman said:

I keep thinking I will move on from Doom but this is really the only FPS game out there that is growing and evolving. Why go anywhere else?

Yes. The doom comunity thrives because it escapes the pressures of money-making a great deal. If companies were involved directly they would certainly "turn it off" some. The comunity started with the work of a few pioneers, with the support of gamers eager to add to a great game. It practically started with the internet, forming at its roots, this can never happen agian. If in the future some company makes an engine that is commercially more successful than the quake engines, then the quake stuff may well become part of the doom community - or quake/doom community (while profit and technical advancement will be concentrated on the "leading" games).

Games from a free community allow for greater customization and more options, albeit some resources are not available. They also allow poorer peolpe to have a whole lot of fun without having to buy monstrous computers or the more expensive last-generation games.

DOOM!

[stphrz]

I am constantly amazed at how vital the Doom community is after
all this time. Damn, this game is over six years old!!
There are new levels posted on Cdrom.com practically every single
week. The wads are still comming out faster than any one person
has time to play, and the overall quality is simply mind-blowing.

[Wildman]

AndrewB said:

That's interesting. Still, to say that a FPS is a FPS is kind of a little inaccurate, in my opinion.

What I mean by this is the game play itself. There is virtually no difference in game play between Doom, Unreal, Qx, Half-Life or Daikitana that matter. Each has a their personal variation on a theme and each have a different look and feel, but the goals and mechanics are the same: shoot stuff, explore and get to the next level. At least in Doom the game mechanics are easier to get at then the other games.

[DeePsea]

Wildman said:

Thank you for the considerate post. I tried to email you but I keep getting the email bounced by XOOM. Is there a problem there?

[Wildman]

DeePTeam said:

Thank you for the considerate post. I tried to email you but I keep getting the email bounced by XOOM. Is there a problem there?

Yes, it appears Xoom was down for a bit. Should be up now though. BTW, I'll have my first DeepSea tutorial up this weekend.