ReX.......a couple questions

[Guest fragg]

(1) Wildman's newest tutorial was sent to www.cdrom.com last weekend. Should be available soon. I went there (first time I ever been there) saw a "New Titles" link. Clicked on it, and screen was empty. It still is. Looking in wrong place? Expecting it too soon?

(2) After studying W/M's nice "Building complex sectors in WadAuthor", and asking many questions in this forum, and spending long hours practising map-building --- the "basic rules" are now fairly well established in my mind.
I'm ready to expand a primitive map (complex bldg in center of big courtyard) into into a town. But first, a final question.....

When I cruise around the courtyard, close to complex bldg, the huge roof "overhang" (circling entire building) looks nice, smooth, solid. This, from every angle.
As I go further away from it, the upper n'lower edges of roof, begin developing tiny "jaggys" (like Saw teeth).
As I move further out into courtyard (2000/3000 units from bldg) jaggys get bigger. (Less so when I don't move, much more so when I move).
At 8000 units distance --- the roof shimmers. (But at no time does roof begin "tearing away" i.e. "disappearing").
Also, exact same phenomena with Walls surrounding courtyard. But no "ghosts" show up. That problem, I fixed by not EXPANDING courtyard Sector to size BIGGER than Wauthor's "MAX. sector-creation" ability (Wauthor can create sector up to Max. linedef length of 9182).
Note: ALL Ceil-hts/Flr-hts of bldg n'courtyard are SAME. So it's not what you called "a point-of-view" problem (that was nice explanation you made there; I printed-out for future ref).

Are these jaggys simply due to D2 engine-limitation?
I mean.... the player's "constant movements" are forcing old D2 engine to "rapidly draw n're-draw" (fast as it can) "constantly-changing views" of Wall textures and Roof textures?
I think that's cause of jaggys -- it's not due to map errors. Nor is it "slow computer" (750-Athlon/256mb/GeForce).
I'll ignore jaggy phenomenom and resume map-building.
Yes?/No? Thanx again....
fragg

[Wildman]

You can grab the WadAuthor manual at:

ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/doom/docs/misc/waman.zip

Just point your browser or ftp client there and get it.

[boris]

I'm not really sure what you mean... maybe you could post a screenshot? Sounds as if it experience Doom's lack of perspective correctness.

[Guest fragg]

I'm afraid screenies are beyond my newby skill.
Your statement, that Problem may be due to D2 engine's "lack of perspective correction" seems logical answer to "Why" (my roofs's straight-lines, develop sawtooth "jaggies" when I move from side-to-side, while observing roof).
Thanks for the observation. I agree.
It seems, these jaggies aren't caused by map-editing errors -- but by the ancient D2 engine, and I shouldn't worry about them.
fragg

[Guest fragg]

Wildman said:

You can grab the WadAuthor manual at:

ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/doom/docs/misc/waman.zip

Just point your browser or ftp client there and get it.

Thank you very much for the new tutor.
I'll scratch around and see if I can get Adobe (or whatever) so I can print it out in Word or Write format.
Thanx again !!!
fragg

[ReX]

Hi Fragg:

Rick has already provided you the link to his WadAuthor manual. In future, you can go to the Newstuff directory at cdrom.com to download recently released stuff. Uploaded files stay in the Incoming directory until Ty Halderman (the archive maintainer) moves them to the Newstuff directory. Users can only read the Incoming directory (and upload to it of course), but cannot download from it. The files typically stay in Newstuff for 10 days and during that time they are moved to their final destination at cdrom.com. Here is the Newstuff link:

ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/doom2/newstuff

Here is a link to Adobe Acrobat, which is a free reader for PDF files:

http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

I'm not sure what could be causing your jagged edge problem. I have built a map similar to the one you describe (massive compound with large building in middle with roof overhang), but never experienced the problem you describe. Keep in mind that once you create your town, the buildings that occupy the courtyard will somewhat prevent the player from seeing the roof overhang of the central building or the outer wall. Of course this does not address the fundamental question of why the jagged edges are being caused, but it may reduce/eliminate the visual effect. Good luck.

ReX

P.S. Taking screenshots, courtesy of: http://cybertootie.com/screenshots.html

In order to take screenshots, you must be in the devparm mode. To go into devparm mode, go to the MS-DOS prompt and go to your Doom directory (C:\DOOM2). Then type in doom2 followed by -devparm (doom2 -devparm). If you want to do this with the ThinLine WAD, then type in -file tline1.wad, too. (doom2 -devparm -file tline1.wad) Then to take a screenshot, all you have to do is press the F1 key. Instead of getting the help menu, it will take a screenshot and save it as a PCX file in the Doom directory.

[ReX]

{Double Post. Sorry.}

[Guest fragg]

fragg said:

Thank you very much for the new tutor.
I'll scratch around and see if I can get Adobe (or whatever) so I can print it out in Word or Write format.
Thanx again !!!
fragg

ReX, thanx for all the info.
I'll tackle screenies first chance I get. But first (since you haven't had that jaggie problem) I'll whip up a fresh, brand-new "bldg/courtyard" Map -- and see if jaggies are gone.
Reason: my orig. Map has had so much experimental "editing/re-editing" done on it --- there "might" be problems in it that neither Wauthor nor I can detect.

BTW, I never mentioned this before. (Might it be the cause of my "jaggies"?)
I've been building this, my first Map, in a perhaps "unorthodox" way. If I understand correctly the "approved/"orthodox"" way to make a Map (containing a "Building inside a Courtyard")is:
(1) Make a big sector. That's your "Courtyard".
(2) Then make a "Building" inside it.

I reversed that order. (I wanted the extra labor so I'd learn more about manipulating many things).
I made a "Bldg" first. Then, a big U-shaped sector. Then dragged Bldg into the open-end of the "U". (But not touching it). Then "tightly wrapped" (at a 2-pixel dist.) the "inner" part of "U" around the Bldg (joining it to Bldg only at 4 doors). Then joined together, the U's ends. Then stretched/shaped the "outer-part" of the "U" into its final shape: a big 8Kx8K Courtyard.
Lotsa work, learned a lot. Now, I'll do it the "orthodox" way.
fragg

[ReX]

Fragg:

If I understand this correctly, you created a "building" first. As you started out in "void" space, you appear to have created the rooms inside the building instead of the building itself (i.e., the outer walls). Then you created a courtyard and wrapped it around the building, leaving a 2-pixel "outer wall" for your building.

I have a couple of suggestions. First, walls in DooM tend to have a thickness starting at 32. Although 32 represents the typical thickness of a modern building's walls, I find that 64 works just as well (particularly as the default grid size in WadAuthor is 64*64. Of course 64 is just fine for medieval walls.) Using a wall thickness of 2 might create an unnatural appearance, particularly if you want to insert windows and doors into the walls.

Second, the so-called "orthodox" way works when you have your map generally planned out (i.e., outer courtyard, central building, etc.) Sometimes, however, a map just grows as the creator works on it. Therefore, there will be times when you may decide to add, say, a courtyard after creating a building. Then you would revert to the unorthodox method you have used. What you did was good practice for when you may need to use the unorthodox method.

Third, some quick tips for creating the type of map you're going for (you already appear to know them, but I'll repeat them just the same). Create your large courtyard sector, choosing appropriate floor & ceiling heights, sky for ceiling, perhaps grass for floor, appropriate texture for courtyard walls. If you want a roof overhang all around your building, create a sector whose ceiling is, say, 64 below the sky. Alter the ceiling texture and make sure you provide an upper texture to the sidedefs of the roof overhang. Inside the roof overhang sector, create a column (void space) where you want your building, and stretch the column's linedefs to the desired building dimensions. Create sectors inside the column to represent your rooms, making sure you provide a reasonable thickness for your outer and inner walls. Connect the rooms with doors and/or windows. Connect the rooms inside the building to the courtyard with doors and/or windows. Add a dash of salt and pepper, and Voila! a map.

ReX

[Guest fragg]

Rex, thanx for the further reply/further info.
Perhaps I didn't as fully explain as I should have. I over-simplified description of my "Map-building procedure" (to keep post from becoming too long). Sorry about that. If u want I'll send the Map. It'll make things clearer, being able to walk around inside, see for yourself what might be causing those jaggies. However, that's your call. Either way, Thanx again.
fragg
PS... I'M SAVING ALL THESE REPLIES FOR STUDY. FIND THEM REAL VALUABLE AS PRINTED REF. DOCS. I ALWAYS FIND SOMETHING "MORE" WHEN READING THEM AGAIN (AND AGAIN).