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Guest fragg

build Doom3...using new Serious engine

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Guest fragg

Id is building Doom3 with new engine that's not compatible with Doom1,2 or new ports(Boom,ZDoom, etc).
We won't be able to port our maps, wads, over to D3.

This is prolly a wacky idea, but I'll throw it out here, see what people think.....
You serious mappers, wad-builders, have expressed strong opinions on what you'd like to see in Doom3.
Why not build a prototype Doom3, that shows Id what you'd like to see in their game?

A full prototype D3 would require a team project. A big hassle.
But more fun, and more likely to get done quick, would be individual guys building their own D3 maps or wads.
True, single maps n'wads are NOT a "complete D3 prototype" - but still, they'd give Id a good idea, of what us Doomers "hope Doom3 will be like".

It'd be fun to use a brand new, Commercial 3D-engine to do this "Doom3"-thingy.
All the work's been done on the engine, it won't need time-wasting "debugging", "patches", "updates".
So guys can just concentrate totally on "building" their D3 maps.

Where you gonna get a powerful new commercial engine for "$20"?
(Heck, we pay more than that for a top Doom Editor!).
This brings me to.....

Croteeam (www.croteam.com) has just released today, the SDK for the Serious Sam engine.
They announced its for coders and serious wad-builders only.
It lets you rip the Serious Sam engine apart, get down and dirty with it ....and build your own game from ground up.

Sam is selling like hotcakes for $20 (game w/Serious engine, 3D-Editor, SDK).
Serious Engine is a full-3D engine, tested by thousands of beta-testers worldwide.
Reviewers say engine-graphics are "right up there" with Q3-A, UT.


Also, the 3D-Editor does all node-building in "real time". You don't have to wait.
And it shows what you're adding to your map, right in the Editor.
You don't have to load the game and go see what the changes you just made to the map, look like in the game.

So....you guys here at Doomworld who are into serious map-building, wad-building -- does this idea have any merit at all?
Even, a teeny weeny bit?
fragg

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Your idea has merit. However, I'd like to quickly weigh the pros and cons.

PRO: By creating a prototype, DooM fans may get an opportunity to influence what goes into DooM3.
CON: Won't that ruin the surprise and wonder for us?

PRO: DooM fans can exercise their creativity and pull together to produce a marvel of gaming.
CON: Unfortunately, there are precious few among us with the talent, vision, dedication, and TIME to make something like this work. (Don't get me wrong -- there's plenty of talent, vision, and dedication. But people with those are already probably neck-deep in their own projects.) Still, it's worth a shot.

PRO: DooM editors can put their skills to good use.
CON: Many (if not most) DooM editors are familiar only with tools to create levels for DooM. Learning how to use a 3D editor (stay away from UnRealEd) might be somewhat of a challenge. Serious Sam's editor may be excellent, but if it has a steep learning curve it will discourage people from using it.

PRO: Working on a team would strengthen the DooM "community"
CON: Unless the team consists of compatible people with equal degrees of commitment and manageable egos, and has good leadership, it is likely to fall apart faster than a space marine in a den of cyberdemons. Enduring teams (such as TeamTNT) may stand a better chance of completing such a project.

I suggest you send your idea to some already-formed teams that have demonstrated their ability to stick with a project to successful completion.

(Just watch the DooM community prove me wrong by rallying around Fragg and implementing his idea. Of course I think that would be great, and I'd be the first to run out barefoot onto the streets waving my shotgun above my head and crying "Hallelujah! The time of reckoning approacheth!" -- just kidding about the shotgun thing.)

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Rex, thanx for excellent reply. You raise excellent objections about a "team" approach.
I hope you'll re-read the special emphasis I placed on the sentences (which immediately followed the "team" suggestion). Because, considering the excellent points you made -- I think this is the ONLY way "D3-mapping" will ever see light of day at Doomworld.
Here's the sentences again from my orig. post......

"But more fun, and more likely to get done quick, would be individual guys building their own D3 maps or wads.
True, single maps n'wads are NOT a "complete D3 prototype" - but still, they'd give Id a good idea, of what us Doomers "hope Doom3 will be like".

Thanx again for your reply.
BTW, Linguica said he "likes the idea" (see my slightly altered post in General forum).
fragg

Don't get me wrong -- I like the idea too, and I hope it comes to fruition. I didn't mean the pros and cons to sound like the cons outweighed the pros, just that someone should consider this objectively if there's a chance that a project will emerge and run through to completion. Forgive me if I sounded like a nay-sayer.

Perhaps if we all wrote to Linguica (read "pester") he might do something akin to the 10-sector contest and get the troops rallying.

You're right -- I missed your pointing out that a team approach may not work. Still, even if this project is not developed as a team, there needs to be some guiding principles. Some examples are whether or not the maps follow a story/mission scenario, what the theme should be (combination tech, gothic, hellish, etc.), a unifying set of graphics, weapons, enemies, etc., architectural styles, etc., etc. Naturally the guidelines would need to extend to the type of engine and editor to use (Serious Sam's engine and editor appear to be strong contenders).

I noticed on the General Forum you got quite a rousing response. Let's hope that the movers and shakers in the community can take your idea and run with it. Good luck.

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Guest fragg

ReX you sound more optimistic than I am <g>).
I don't think anything will come of it.
Have you noticed the sorta "malaise", that seems to be hanging over this place? Like everyone was waiting.

IMO, if "D3-mapping" in Doomworld is ever going to come about, it WON'T be because a "team" did it.
It will be launched by one editing-savvy guy with spirit (like yourself) who'll make for his own accomplishment, satisfaction -- a single "killer-map" (using a top engine; likely, the Serious one).
Then he somehow imported Doom enemies into it (maybe along with the Sam enemies) -- and the graphics were so wild and georgous, and map was such a blast to play -- that he downloaded it here.
And bingo-- all hell broke loose ("Hey that's cool, Man!!"... "Wow!!"... "I think I'll try making one!!").
From that point on it'll be a snowball rolling downhill -- bigger by the minute.

In other words it'll be one lone guy who'll start the D3-map ball rolling. It'll be a sharp, persistant, determined, mapper who'll do it. One guy who said "shit, there may be slight "Sam-learning"-curve here, road may have pothole or two -- but still, its only $20 project --by dang, I'll give it a shot!!"
After Id releases D3, he'll prolly be acknowledged as "original pioneer" of Doom3 mapping, the mapper who blazed the trail, the lone guy who led the way.
It's always been so in life, always will be, in Big things or Small -- it's always been 'one guy' who leads the way.

Thanks for the reply Rex, I won't be pushing "D3-mapping" any further, just let it lie (who knows, some sharp mapper might decide to give it a shot).
Thanx again for that tip you gave the guy a couple days ago -- I put it in my ("growing") tutorial ringbinder.
BTW, I'm shrinking that Wauthor tutor that Nightmare compiled, cutting out white space, etc. --it'll be smaller to print.
fragg

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Guest fragg
ReX said:

Rex, thanx for excellent reply. You raise excellent objections about a "team" approach.
I hope you'll re-read the special emphasis I placed on the sentences (which immediately followed the "team" suggestion). Because, considering the excellent points you made -- I think this is the ONLY way "D3-mapping" will ever see light of day at Doomworld.
Here's the sentences again from my orig. post......

"But more fun, and more likely to get done quick, would be individual guys building their own D3 maps or wads.
True, single maps n'wads are NOT a "complete D3 prototype" - but still, they'd give Id a good idea, of what us Doomers "hope Doom3 will be like".

Thanx again for your reply.
BTW, Linguica said he "likes the idea" (see my slightly altered post in General forum).
fragg

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fragg said:

After Id releases D3, he'll prolly be acknowledged as "original pioneer" of Doom3 mapping, the mapper who blazed the trail, the lone guy who led the way.

Dang! When you put it that way it sounds almost irresistable. Almost makes me feel like setting aside the project I'm currently working on to take up the cause. Just think -- all that glory, all that acclaim, all that .... all that WORK. What was I thinking? I'm be so deep in seeking fame and fortune that my friends will drop me like a pile of fresh, steaming cow manure. My dog will leave me, but not before dropping a load of aforementioned fresh, steaming, etc. My boss will look down his nose at me and say: "Didn't you shower before coming into work, boy? You smell of fresh, steaming, etc."

But seriously, Fragg, it sounds like a wonderful opportunity. After I'm done with these levels I'm putting together (perhaps in a couple of months) I'll definitely consider your idea. I still believe that the effort will require a team. (If I'm involved, I'm certainly going to require help, seeing as I have limited skills in many of the areas required.) Being a frequent visitor to these forums, I have a pretty good idea of who might fit the bill and may be willing to contribute. I'll discreetly ask around a bit, and perhaps I'll be able to raise some interest.

We'll need the usual types of contributions -- graphics conversions, 3D models (unless MD2 will work in the SS engine), maps, sounds, music, perhaps even programming. But I'm getting ahead of myself. First I've got to get done this bear of a project I've already undertaken (about 45% complete). All within the constraints of a job, real life, etc.

If you don't mind, Fragg, email or post me a reminder in a month and then again in a couple of months. Meanwhile, based on your glowing review and enthusiastic recommendation, I will probably buy SS soon, and investigate the possibilities. Despair not, my friend; your idea may yet bear fruit!

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Guest fragg

Right on, ReX!! Go for it.
I always felt you were a guy who could handle this.
If anyone can do it you can. You're experienced mapper, have sharp mind, 'stick-to-it' spirit that don't accept failure ("the *Difficult* we do immediately, the *Impossible* takes a little longer"---ReX. <g>).

IMO when you've built it (the first, pioneering D3-map)-- it will be "catalyst" that causes other Doomworld mappers to begin Doom3-mapping.
And it will Snowball, from there.
It'll be "shot-in-the-arm" for the Doom community-spirit here, and will prolly benefit Doomworld site by bringing in new Members attracted by news of "D3 activities" here. (That may be one of reasons why Linguica says he "likes" this D3-Map idea).

And the lone guy who "jump-started" it all will be respected by top mappers/wad-builders and certain dudes in game-industry (as a "self-starter", a guy not afraid to "pioneer").

I leave it now in your hands. I'll pay the $20 you'll need, OK?
Since you're already a mapper, you know guys who can give tips/help when needed.
May I make suggestion?
IMO the Key to success ("finishing job in reasonable time") might be in not exhausting yourself by building a whole wad.
Build one killer-map, that you really like, that's a blast to play, download it to Doomworld....then stand back and watch the "Snowball start rolling downhill---Bigger by the minute"!!
Best o'luck buddy!!
fragg

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