wow. Wadauthor is super dooper

[Guest fragg]

deepteam said:

Yup, it's that easy. As I've mentioned before, the real learning curve is not some editor, but really what exactly making a "level" is all about.

Personal learning curves vary according to one's ability to relate to an editor's docs and initial style. It's not a good/bad thing, just individual differences/tastes.

Once one is familiar with all those linedefs, sidedefs and sectors and actually making levels, then it's a little easier to evaluate. Sort of like buying your 1st used car<g>

As I've said before, the prefab method is available in DeePsea, but when all is said and done, the line drawing method gets the job done a lot faster/easier:)

I have both trade-in and bribe discounts available (lol).

Jack, re. building a sector:
Are you saying that with Deep, you can just start drawing lines, and when u get the shape you want -- you can hit a "make sector" button (like they say Waded can do) and bingo! -- you have a sector? Or is there more to it?
fragg

[Lüt]

deepteam said:

OK I didn't really wanna argue this but anyways;

Maybe it's just a personal thing but I hate programs doing stuff I don't tell them to do. Like when I start media player; why does it go to a website, load a GUI, and connect to the internet to check for updates and do god knows what else, all behind my back? I just try to play a damn WAV file or music CD.

Now yours is nowhere near that bad, but still, dealing with those automatic sectors is a pain in the ass. They've caused more trouble than it's even worth going into. Trying to add the simplest things like lights and indented spaces in walls for things like banners/faces and torches causes enough problems, I have never dared to start a level from scratch. Actually, I have, but with older versions. I made a staircase for Hexen once, and it actually worked :)

But let me explain my latest venture into actual map editing and not just cut+paste/new object placement.

Man I need a diagram.

BEFORE: www.doomworld.com/insanity/images/sew_01.jpg
AFTER: www.doomworld.com/insanity/images/sew_02.jpg

Basically, there's a little ceiling structure and support beams going down a hall with lights on the walls casting shadows. The original shadows between the bars were a straight line. I changed them to be angled. In WadEd, I would delete the straight lines (just the 16-pixel ones), draw the angled ones in, click "Make Sector" in the giant beam sector, and then again for the small shadow areas. Simple. But now in Deep I delete the lines, all goes fine. Then I draw the new ones in. It seems random which sectors get assigned to these lines. The front sides generally got it right, however the back sides of the angles were a separate sector from the actual beam that was casting their shadow. So we had the walls on the beams be something like Sectors 895, 896, 897, etc. and the backside of the shadows be 2,810, 2,811, 2,812, etc. So for each of the shadows whose sectors I want to close, I have to load the line properties for the beam they're connected to, check that sector number, go into the line properties for the shadow, open the side 2 properties, change it to match the sector it's supposed to be connected to in the first place, move to the second one, do that one, 10 times over. Then you go to check the unused sectors, and there's like 13 entries for sector data that doesn't exist in the map, created by the auto-make-sector feature.

The other one that bugs the crap outta me is trying to make ceiling lights. Little 32x32 or 64x64 squares. Let's say I put one in sector 1,727. It's to be hanging down 8 pixels from the rest of the ceiling. I draw the 4 lines in. Everything's great, except they're one-sided, like a pillar. Makes sense of course, BUT, now I go to the line properties to add the second sidedef, and when it does that, it makes the second side the same sector reference as the first side. So it's like useless lines sitting in the middle of ONE sector, not two separate sector. Now I go to change the reference number on the new backsides of the lines. I want a new sector, but alas, I can't create the new sector I need simply by making their sector reference one number higher than the last defined sector in the level (it'll say there's a limit of 0-3,128 and it won't let me enter anything past 3,128). So what I have to do is go to the outskirts of the map, draw as many isolated dummy squares as I need for sectors, check the sector numbers of those dummy squares, renumber the ceiling lights to the now-existing sectors made by those dummy squares, delete the dummy squares, THEN change the properties the way I need to.

There's another problem I had with making things like torchholders in walls and windows, etc. where it would want to "close" these off by adding a line going from the first point to the last point and scrambling the sectors they belonged to instead of just leaving my damn lines where I put them, but I haven't had it happen much recently so I don't really care too much, it's quicker to just cut out that section of the map, post it in WadEd and re-paste it back in with WadAuthor. I tried pasting with Deep but it seemed to like making some of my two-sided lines one-sided, along with changing some tags.

[DeePsea]

First off this post is too damn long. So only you and I will read it:)

DeeP and DeePsea are TWO different programs and do not work the same way. You keep writing DeeP, so I'll assume you meant DeePsea 11.01. What is interesting is that your argument centers on DeePsea not working just like Waded - a very editor centric pov. And of course the ever present subjective angle.

For any editor, READ the help and/or LEARN a different way of doing some stuff. One needs to experiment. I could argue that Waded (name your editor) screws everything up because it doesn't operate the same way as DeePsea. A silly way to argue.

Here's an example of editor centric arguing - Waded saves a level with invalid sectors. You actually have to go into "draw" mode and then select the type of object to drag. When drawing in Waded one has to take one's eye off the drawing to see the length of a line. The file open/save is extremely useless. What's that all about? Sounds like a lot of work to me.

That was just an example of the type of argument you presented - in reverse of course.

I doubt very much you can't start a level from scratch using the ON SCREEN interactive demo. But you have to TRY it. You say the same thing about Wadauthor. Both are just as easy (or easier) than Waded. In fact, for DeePsea it's EXACTLY the same- minus the "make sector" step (lol). Of course it's Ctrl+D (or the menu Draw, or Ins in vertex mode) to start drawing.

For the pasting comment, think some more about the general case - not just what you have done. In fact, DeePsea is unique in recognizing pasting problems.

Normally you do NOT want the tags duplicated - so when one pastes (like a complete level from another PWAD), not changing the tags can cause you lots of grief. So the opposite is true, there are very few instances where the same tags should be kept.

When pasting, it makes sense to check to see that in the current "context" some 2-sided lines should be made 1-sided (partial pastes). However, (as stated in the docs or if one looked at the F5 options), select PASTE AS IS, to just leave stuff alone. Mind boundaries are always a problem. Maybe because Waded has no help, you never realized it was there?

As for your drawing example - I have to guess a little. DeePsea works within the "context" of surrounding areas to automatically create new sectors (as does DCK & Dmapedit - both good editors too). Normally, this saves you ONE step (vs Waded). So all the work creating the level goes much faster than with Waded.

However, changing areas requires some understanding. In your example, when you delete the line separating the areas, you created an invalid area (run the DeePsea error checker and see - I'd say Waded error checker, but here isn't one<g>).

No biggie, just fix the sectors assigned. Select the linedefs, click on the "hot" sector area on the bottom and all better. Essentially the same thing as with Waded. Sure, some specific examples can be "easier" in 1 editor vs the other, but hardly something to make a case with. It's all about experience with whatever editor one uses.

So the very thing you complain about, normally saves you 1 step. Waded creates invalid areas and one HAS to be sure to fix them. OTOH, DeePsea -normally- creates valid areas.

Drawing inside an area creates 1 vs 2-sided linedefs depending on the direction drawn. That's just one of the rules you never bothered to read about. You can also create new "sectors" just by selecting the linedefs and pressing "ins". You can also add Sidedefs.

Lot's of ways to make lights, etc, including F9 predefined, which does it all at once. Pressing Esc when drawing does NOT close the area off. ALL these issues revolve around you not reading the help - period.

In fact, editing the different hardcore aspects of a level is much easier than with Waded. Changing the actual sidedefs and sectors values - a requirement for TRICKS - is duck simple. How does Waded let you do that? Sounds like you have NO CONTROL here at all.

DeePsea has many commands to help CONTROL your design. I could have selected all the "sectors" and merged them into one, eliminating the invalid references - all better now for doing the drawing changes. This also helps stock DOOM visi issues.

Other CONTROL commands pack/unpack sidedefs, add or delete sidedefs, change global light, heights, blah blah. Full screen texture browsing rather than an almost useless 1 at a time view. DeePsea gives one the ability to do a complete TC without leaving the pgm (assuming sound/graphics are done).

It's funny that you "hate programs doing stuff "I don't tell them to"? Right this very minute your "program" viewing this is doing zillions of things you didn't "tell it to do". In fact, ALL programs do things you didn't tell them to do - Including Waded. How? Well it made Linedefs, sidedefs and vertexes when you drew. It just forgot about the sector - because that's much harder to do<g>

What are you doing with Waded? You need to use DEU for much better "control". There you get to start from ground zero with vertexes. Now there's CONTROL! A bit grunty, but you do get to bask in all that work, knowing you did it all yourself.

It's like building a house and you want to cut down the tree, split the wood, make the nails .. for "total control". That makes so much sense:)

Did you know that one really has very little control with Waded? The only "control" you have is via the "buttons" - what it DOES FOR YOU (outside of your control). However, there is NO CONTROL over the raw aspects of a level (sidedef/sector values or flags). Nor can you control any aspect of the WAD structure. So much for the control argument.

Subjectively, each person likes whatever they want, for whatever reason - that's the way the world turns. That does not justify posting stuff that is questionable in objectivity and show total lack of trying to read the help or even the shortcut key summary. It's the only reason I replied:)

[Searcher]

fragg said:

Searcher:
Thanks for the info.
I followed your advice ("edit PrBoom.cfg") and set res. to 1024x768, and saved.
Then fired up my wad.4 wad in Wadauthor (which is prboom-configured) and as screen was loading, it still said "320x200". Sheesh.
Re. your second alternative ("set it from command line") I'm embarrassed to say I don't know how to get to command line in PrBoom. Do I fire up the game and go there, and if I'm in game, how to get to it?
Or am I doing something wrong by always (while in Wadauthor) firing up just the wad I'm working on?
Should I first fire up PrBoom (in PrBoom dir.) and try to set res. from there?
Newby confusion reigns here.
(Yup, reeel Dumb <g>).

Fragg, I'm not sure what to tell you here. I don't use wad author, so I am unsure how to configure your startup for it. You might see if there is a .cfg, .ini, or startup file that wad author uses when it starts prboom, I think that is probably where the problem is.

You can check my guess by booting up PrBoom outside of wad author to see if the res. changes have taken effect. If they work OK outside of wad author then the problem is in the file it uses to start PrBoom.

Open a DOS window and start PrBoom something like this:
No doubt your folders will be different.

d:\DOOM2\TEAMTNT\prboom\prboom.exe -file d:\doom2\anywad.wad

If the res. changes you made and saved, are working this way, then look for a setup file wad author uses to boot PrBoom. Is there a wad author setup? Can you run Wad Author set-up again?

You might also try it this way outside of wad author:
d:\DOOM2\TEAMTNT\prboom\prboom.exe -file d:\doom2\anywad.wad -width 800 -height 600

The command line is the line you use to start the game, like above, before you start the game.
It is the same as creating an icon, to use to start PrBoom. That is the command line.
Very doubtful you can get to the command line once the program is started, because the command line is what tells the system what to boot up. If all else fails spend the several hours needed to read all the files that came with PrBoom and wad author.

All the most useful command line switches, as well as some great cheats, are in a file called Boom.txt that you downloaded with PrBoom. If you want a complete list they are in a file called "readme-command-line.txt" Take a 7-up along if you are going to read this file, it is VERY dry reading, but those guys have done a great job with all the stuff PrBoom can do.

If all this fails make sure you have the most up to date copy of PrBoom, because ther very early ones did not support hi-res.

Good Luck,
Searcher

[Jayextee]

deepteam said:

Note how I say nothing about Deepsea - I haven't used it at all, I merely compare against WadAuthor.

I _will_ give DeepSea a try though.

But at the end of the day, people are all different and have different opinions, upon which it seems my 'facts' were based upon.

I just like WadEd, so stop hitting me, you nasty man ;)

[Guest FRAGG]

Searcher said:

Searcher.... I've been "PC-crashed" for a week or more, so I just saw your reply today when I returned to Doomworld.
I'll give it a workout as soon as I complete fixing my system.
Big thanks, for the detailed instructions.
Fragg

[DeePsea]

fragg said:

Jack, re. building a sector:
Are you saying that with Deep, you can just start drawing lines, and when u get the shape you want -- you can hit a "make sector" button (like they say Waded can do) and bingo! -- you have a sector? Or is there more to it?
fragg

Sorry, I never saw this for some reason.

It's actually a bit simpler than that. You just draw the lines/shape you want and BINGO, you are DONE. There is no extra "make sector" required. (For now, make a complete area though if you haven't messed with the details of references yet, to make it easier to understand).

If you draw counter-clockwise you get 2-sided areas and clockwise = 1-sided. There's a reason for each.

If you want to change a sector assignment (and/or add a 2nd side), you can select the linedefs and then press Ins and change/add sidedef/sector references (there are also other ways). This is "make sector" if you will.

But the cool thing is you can combine drawing with prefabs on demand, making it much easier to create complicated, non-uniform shapes.

A sector is the floor and ceiling height+ textures, NOT the area drawn. The Sidedefs of a level reference these "sectors". If that is confusing, it's best to review the subject "A detailed look at Wad files" in the online DeePsea help. Some stuff out there is incorrect on "sectors" so be careful of what you read.

As I've mentioned before, learning the actual way a level is put together is the key to understanding and learning to interact with the tools of any editor. For beginners, the more limited prefabs are easier to use, until they finally get it:)