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Guest HellMaster666

Doom3 vs Serious Sam. Who wins?

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Guest HellMaster666

I just played an amazing Serious Sam Compatibility Test. Woooow. Its awesome. I was stunned by their enegine. SS is what I was waiting for since Doom days. Amazingly wide open areas, 30+ enemies at once attacking, classic weaponary (knife, pistol, single and double shotgun, minigun, rocket launcher) and monster enemies (some of the enemies are very original and great fun to shot at; my perosnal favourites are werebull and headless kamikaze guys). Through SS has some minor flaws (it`s only a test now) I think it`s gonna be big BIG game. Doom3 is gonna be awesome, I`m sure of it, but I think that id should look at this one when they design Doom3. And till then I`m gonna enjoy Serious Sam. It roooocks!!!
BTW, has anyone but me even seen SS? Do you share my opinion?

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Guest JudgeDooM

...uh...
where can I get the demo already, I don't remember the adress.

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Who wins? Definetly DOOM 3 :)
id probably shouldn't look at the engine at all either :)

Doom 3 is being designed at a later date than Serious Sam, when an interesting bit of technology has started to sneak into end-user 3d cards that the Serious Sam team could not have incorporated into their engine at the time they were making it. It is sometimes called "T&L", which stands for transformation and lighting. Until now, 3d cards drew polygons onto a 2d image that got displayed on the screen. This part of a 3d engine is called a "rasterizer" (the actual rendering). Some of the newer cards could also perform clipping. But now the what is this transform business? Well say you have a model in 3 dimensional space. The coordinates in the model file start at (0, 0), the boxes first vertex lets say. Their are 7 more points describe a simple box. When this box appears in the our 3d "world" though, it isn't going to appear at (0,0) like it's description says it should...It has to be moved (transformed) into the world cooridinate system to where it should go. Then it has to be transformed with respect to the camera...THEN because far away object appear smaller, it has to be scaled (another form of transformation), THEN it has to figure out what is "behind" what and not send that data to the rasterizer for speed issues (clipping)!!!

Wow that was complicated! Now here's the deal:
Most of that is done by your processor, NOT your 3d card! :(
And your processor was not designed to do all that floating point math fast (at extreme speeds required by real-time 3d...at *least* 30 times a second)

Then there's lighting, also partially done in the processor...And thats MUCH worse (not even going to go into that! :)

BUT the T&L 3d cards have a special chip to handle all that and they're *designed* specifically for that, so they do it much faster (and I believe more accuratly)...So here is the result:

1) Serious Sam is dependant on 3d and CPU hardware
2) Doom 3 will most likely not be (3d only - much better suited to the task)

And by the time Doom 3 comes out the T&L will be on it's 4th generation probably (some really fast stuff!)...And thats assuming they don't come out with something better! The reason id should not bother looking at Serious Sam is because to make a T&L engine, you have to write your engine to take advantage of the technology from the ground up (obviously, because the geometry pipeline (transforms) is coded by Serious Sam developers or part of an API but will probably not be in DOOM 3 (it most likely will be part of the drivers for the card itself, and id would user an interface to the driver for it's T&L needs through an API which provided more direct access))

Basically, they have to design an entirely new technology, so serious sam wouldn't be of much help

None of us can imagine how awesome DOOM 3 is going to look...Look at some of the specially coded T&L games in development NOW (none released yet)...Not 2 years from now (when D3 will probably come out), but even now they're amazing!

...and then remember that two years was the difference between Wolf3d and Doom. We're getting very close to the time when we get 3d Studio MAX quality out of our 3d engines...Personally, I can't wait :)

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Guest Adasciti

uh... are u a 3D card salesmen or something.
Anyway DOOM3 is not going to be out for a LOOONg time.

What other advantages will Doom3 have with new technologies??

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No I'm not a salesman :)

Well since the geometry pipeline is probably going to be moving to the cards this has one cool effect:
Better Graphics will only make you get a new 3d card every once in a while, not a new CPU...Well you'll have to get a new CPU for other things in game, but they're generally not to processor intensive so you probably won't have to upgrade as often :)

Other then that, I suppose everything will just get faster like it does now with CPUs...The graphics processors will follow the same "Moore's Law" and the price will go down on video ram used for storing texutres (so you'll get more) and maybe texture compression technology will improve (for far better textures (BIG 32-bit ones))

Take a look at 3d design/rendering software like 3d Studio MAX and "SoftImage" (SoftImage was used to make the effects for "Independence Day")...This stuff is built for quality, DEFINITLY not speed and you can create 3d worlds so real you might think they were photographs...But then look at "Serious Sam" and compare it to Wolf3d. Thats *less* than 10 years of 3d technology evolution! So before 2010 it's definietly a safe bet that we will be getting close to 3dsMAX/SoftImage/LightWave qualitiy out of our games, although probably not by the time Doom 3 comes out (but Doom will come out in two or three years...That many years was the number of years between Wolf3d and Doom, and look at the amazing technological jump! Doom 3 will probably amaze us all the same was Doom did)

Eventually, they won't be able to look THAT much better (very realistic!), at which point, programmers will probably start to improve more on AI, physics, and other gameplay type stuff :)

I know it sounds very unrealistic and outlandish but consider this: A modern scientific calculator has more power then ALL the computers used in the NASA Apollo missions and thats been about 30 years...So in 10 I think we'll definietly hit real time rendered realistic worlds. Isn't the future exciting? :)

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Guest JudgeDooM
deadnail said:

http://www.oldmanmurray.com

It's still on their main page, the section with the map of Croatia on it with the big road sign sticking out of ground zero. If you can't find it there, try http://www.gamecenter.com , they usually have every demo available.

I remember it is a 47 meg file. It's still like this ?

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Guest HellMaster666
Virgil said:

I dont think that impressive engine is all you need to make great game. I`m enjoying playing orginal Doom even now. All later games (Quake, Unreal, Sin,...) had better engines but I dont think that any of them was better than Doom when speaking of playability. IMHO Serious Sam has great playability. I would dare to say that it even exceed Doom playability. :) Very creative mosters with wide variety of attacks and numerus monsters attacking at once (20+) makes real Doom expirience with, of course, much better graphics.
When I`m speaking of Doom3 vs Serious Sam, I`m speaking of playability and action, and in that context Id should make a lot of effort to beat SS. And if they beat SS, no one will be happier than me. ;)

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Virgil said:

So, what will happen to people like me who have a 333 pentium with onboard video (4mb shared with ram) that is not 3d accelerated (I can't run quake 3 because it reqs. 3d accelerator). And 64 meg/ram.

Will I be left in the dust like I just was with quake 3 or will something as massive as the great "doom 3" be able to run on my lowly system by changing detail options and the such. I hope it will NOT (what a surprise!). It should'nt run on my system but it should run on something like a p450 w/256 meg ram (somebody said they had something like that earlier).

I don't have the money to upgrade my system right now. Maybe by the time doom 3 comes out I will have gotten a job and saved some money (i'm 18 and still don't have a job, had one before but had to quit). By that time even a cheap $500 knock-off will be a p750 w/128 meg ram, fantastic video card by our standards, and DVD.

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